Will cloud gaming take off?

noel1980 · 26-09-2019 11:55pm #1

Hi everyone.

As you may know Google recently announced their new cloud gaming platform, Stadia. I watched some demos of it on YT, and it looks cool, but does anybody seriously thing it will take the market away from Sony PS4 (and soon PS5)?

Personally I'm sceptical. I think the average home internet/TV setup is nowhere near the low latency required to allow this kind of gaming eco-system to flourish.

Here's my thinking on it:

If I play games on my TV in game mode, I get about a 30ms input lag, but if I hook the PS4 up to my 4K monitor, I'm getting 2ms or so, and there's a noticeable difference, and it translates into a better gaming experience, and better performance in the games. In fact I never play games on the TV anymore, even though I'd like to, because the input lag has such an impact on my performance.

Now, if I do a ping on my home computer to the router (standard virgin media box), I'm getting a RTT of about 5 - 10ms for each packet. Ok so that's from my computer to my router in the same room, and we're already up to 5ms. Now if I'm using a service like Stadia, that will incur this 5ms, plus all the hops to and from Google data centers, plus the processing time for processing my button pushes in the actual game software and rendering the output image. Then there's any processing on the device on my side. I know that in reality these are negligible, but the network hops and the TV input lag will be pretty costly, IMO.

For arguments sake, let's assume the time for a packet to travel from my router to Google servers is 2.5ms.

So, if I'm playing on my current TV, we have 2.5ms (to router) + 2.5ms (to google) + 0.5ms (in google) + 2.5ms (from google) + 2.5ms (from router) + 20ms (TV processing) = 30.5 ms

I'm being very conservative here with the network and processing figures.

Now my TV is quite old (3 yrs or so), and since then the input lag for TVs in game mode (2019 models) has improved a bit, they can do 1080p in about 10ms, so that would knock off 10ms off my figure, bringing it to 20.5ms.

But even 20.5ms ain't great, and as a gamer, there's nothing worse than playing on a laggy TV, and realistically, most people don't even have the latest model of TV, nor do they have super-fast fiber broadband, which I have. I'm giving the best case scenario here, certainly for 2019, in reality the figures could be much worse.

Am I missing something here? Curious to here others thoughts on this. It's a bit of a head scratcher to me.

BeerWolf · 27-09-2019 12:16am

Oh sure, with my awesome 2mbps download speeds!

Latency will always be a main issue, so for games that demand immediate reactions such as first person shooters or racing I wouldn't say it would pick up in that area. RPGs, Puzzlers, etc. sure why not.

banie01 · 27-09-2019 12:18am

I've been using Geforce Now for years on Nvidia Shield.
Works very well IMO and has steam and blizzard store integration.
Not every game works, but plenty do.

Granted it is a bandwidth hog and minimum speeds needed are 35mb with low ping.

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 12:34am

banie01 wrote: »

I've been using Geforce Now for years on Nvidia Shield.
Works very well IMO and has steam and blizzard store integration.
Not every game works, but plenty do.

Granted it is a bandwidth hog and minimum speeds needed are 35mb with low ping.

I never heard of Nvidia shield...

frankston · 27-09-2019 2:26am

noel1980 wrote: »

Hi everyone.

As you may know Google recently announced their new cloud gaming platform, Stadia. I watched some demos of it on YT, and it looks cool, but does anybody seriously thing it will take the market away from Sony PS4 (and soon PS5)?

Personally I'm sceptical. I think the average home internet/TV setup is nowhere near the low latency required to allow this kind of gaming eco-system to flourish.

Here's my thinking on it:

If I play games on my TV in game mode, I get about a 30ms input lag, but if I hook the PS4 up to my 4K monitor, I'm getting 2ms or so, and there's a noticeable difference, and it translates into a better gaming experience, and better performance in the games. In fact I never play games on the TV anymore, even though I'd like to, because the input lag has such an impact on my performance.

Now, if I do a ping on my home computer to the router (standard virgin media box), I'm getting a RTT of about 5 - 10ms for each packet. Ok so that's from my computer to my router in the same room, and we're already up to 5ms. Now if I'm using a service like Stadia, that will incur this 5ms, plus all the hops to and from Google data centers, plus the processing time for processing my button pushes in the actual game software and rendering the output image. Then there's any processing on the device on my side. I know that in reality these are negligible, but the network hops and the TV input lag will be pretty costly, IMO.

For arguments sake, let's assume the time for a packet to travel from my router to Google servers is 2.5ms.

So, if I'm playing on my current TV, we have 2.5ms (to router) + 2.5ms (to google) + 0.5ms (in google) + 2.5ms (from google) + 2.5ms (from router) + 20ms (TV processing) = 30.5 ms

I'm being very conservative here with the network and processing figures.

Now my TV is quite old (3 yrs or so), and since then the input lag for TVs in game mode (2019 models) has improved a bit, they can do 1080p in about 10ms, so that would knock off 10ms off my figure, bringing it to 20.5ms.

But even 20.5ms ain't great, and as a gamer, there's nothing worse than playing on a laggy TV, and realistically, most people don't even have the latest model of TV, nor do they have super-fast fiber broadband, which I have. I'm giving the best case scenario here, certainly for 2019, in reality the figures could be much worse.

Am I missing something here? Curious to here others thoughts on this. It's a bit of a head scratcher to me.

There are a number of different model from the software architecture point of view that vary the the amount of code and when it is downloaded onto the client. Commonly referred to as thick or thin client models. So maybe they game software architecture will vary depending on the specific player interaction bottleneck

manual_man · 27-09-2019 2:27am

The sky is the limit

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 3:00am

I just think cloud gaming has come about 20 years too early. It will run great on internet 2040, but not internet 2020.

hellboy99 · 27-09-2019 3:35am

ISP monthly data caps need to go

Jamiekelly · 27-09-2019 7:06am

hellboy99 wrote: »

ISP monthly data caps need to go

I'm on the Eir PAYG 20 quid unlimited data myself and have went over the 80GB cap yesterday. I've just downloaded about 45GB of games since then and the speed hasn't slowed at all. If data caps remain for broadband then I'm guessing everyone will eventually move to mobile broadband hotspots.

ZiabR · 27-09-2019 9:01am

hellboy99 wrote: »

ISP monthly data caps need to go

They are gone already for the most part. Switch to Digiweb on FTTC, FTTH or Electric Broadband.

Mickeroo · 27-09-2019 9:03am

I don't necessarily think it's going to take off with the offerings we're getting later this year but overall I think it's a question of when not if it will take off. It's definitely the future imo.

TheIrishGrover · 27-09-2019 9:17am

Yeah, it's a mater of WHEN as opposed to IF. I have signed up for Stadia. Mainly out of curiosity, I'm not a hardcore gamer - certainly not for twitch-reflex games like COD - I'm in my 40's so haven't got the reaction time

As you and others have said, it will be a bandwidth-hog and very latency-dependent. We are certainly not there globally. While many of us are fine here in Dublin with our magic 250Mbps lines and Datacentres across the road, others do not have this. And this is considering that Ireland is pretty good in the big picture for their Broadband speed/pricing/availability.

Of course we are currently cloud-gaming to a certain extent with our regular multiplayer games. Obviously the packets are much smaller but would still be affected by existing connection conditions. But yeah, this would become much more of an issue if you are basically setting up a low-latency, fat pipe RDP session.

I don't think it will EVER be adopted for hardcore, competitive gamers: It will never be suitable for extreme reflex heavy games such as COD. No matter what they say. No, it's definitely more for the casual gamer IMHO.

As a casual gamer, I'll let you know how I get on.

ZiabR · 27-09-2019 9:17am

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't necessarily think it's going to take off with the offerings we're getting later this year but overall I think it's a question of when not if it will take off. It's definitely the future imo.

Agree with you. It is the future. I often find myself going back to the launch of the Xbox One. When it was announced that it would be an always on console, and would require an internet connection all of the time, the gaming world poured more fuel on their torches and sharpened their pitch forks.

The reality was that Mircosoft were for the most part, right. When the Xbox One launched I was already always online 99.9% of the time. The only time I was offline, was when my internet connection was down.

For the last number of years, if I am not online when on the Xbox, I feel kinda naked, so much so, that I never play games in offline mode. That and I haven't purchased a physical game in 5 years. Gaming is already on the cloud, with digital purchases and the ability to access your gaming profiles no matter what console you use.

With xCloud, it is simply the next step. I personally don't think I will use it, but I am fully supportive of it. It is the way forward.

B.A._Baracus · 27-09-2019 10:40am

yeah it will take off. just a matter of time.

banie01 · 27-09-2019 12:30pm

noel1980 wrote: »

I never heard of Nvidia shield...

Which goes a long way towards showing that there may be a way to go yet before cloud gaming becomes normal.

As an example of cloud gaming.
I bought my 1st Nvidia Shield in 2015!
It came out of the box with Nvidia's Geforce Now cloud gaming service.
I don't own a gaming a pc, but I play a lot of PC games.
GTA V probably still at the top of my pile but lots available to me on Geforce now, Steam and Blizzard.

That Google Stadia is being touted as the future of cloud gaming is a little disingenuous.
Its been here, and been used for years.

Mickeroo · 27-09-2019 12:32pm

banie01 wrote: »

Which goes a long way towards showing that there may be a way to go yet before cloud gaming becomes normal.

As an example of cloud gaming.
I bought my 1st Nvidia Shield in 2015!
It came out of the box with Nvidia's Geforce Now cloud gaming service.
I don't own a gaming a pc, but I play a lot of PC games.
GTA V probably still at the top of my pile but lots available to me on Geforce now, Steam and Blizzard.

That Google Stadia is being touted as the future of cloud gaming is a little disingenuous.
Its been here, and been used for years.

Nvidia shield doesn't have a mass marketing campaign behind it like Stadia/Xcloud will though.

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 12:38pm

I read that Amazon and Microsoft are planning to dip their toes in the cloud gaming market too, but it seems to be on a smaller scale than Google.

I suspect their services will be nothing but a remote PC with some games loaded onto it (which should be fairly straightforward to develop), whereas Stadia seems to be a fully fledged platform, where the game makers need to upload their entire gaming backend.

banie01 · 27-09-2019 12:39pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Nvidia shield doesn't have a mass marketing campaign behind it like Stadia/Xcloud will though.

Nope, Shield itself doesn't but Geforce Now does and has been part of Nvidia's marketing for years.

It's a long lived and serviceable iteration of the "next" big thing that is now running 5 years.
The limitations for cloud gaming will be aggregated ping and hops.
It will drastically affect some gamers used to sub 30ms response times and twitch gamers.
On the other hand if the Google and MS service is predicated on all users being channeled via their service and not being "cross platform" the advantage of ping is negated and then becomes one for the user in trying to minimize their hops.

Dravokivich · 27-09-2019 12:41pm

The main issue with cloud gaming is connectivity. I only subscribed to PSNOW becuase I can download PS4 games with it. I wouldnt be able to stream them.

hellboy99 · 27-09-2019 1:05pm

ZiabR wrote: »

They are gone already for the most part. Switch to Digiweb on FTTC, FTTH or Electric Broadband.

Digiweb like most other ISPs may say they provide "unlimited" data but in actually fact they don't and have Fair Usage Policies in place. Check the T&Cs

Unlimited Broadband
Our service packages are designed for use by individuals, families and small businesses, for activities that should not give rise to extreme consumption, which could potentially degrade performance for other users. We believe that our fair usage policy (https://digiweb.ie/fair-usage-policy) meets our regulatory requirements and are in the best interest of our customers.

https://digiweb.ie/product/electric-broadband-150/#tab-additional_information

AtomicHorror · 27-09-2019 1:08pm

I'm using Shadow on trial at the moment, though it's not officially launched here. So far- despite my running it on WiFi in a house that seems to have Faraday cages for walls- it is impressive. Not perfect, but impressive.

I wouldn't play on FPS online on it as I currently have it set up, but I'd be lying if I claimed my scores would be noticeably worse. Minor lag and stutter are nothing compared to my multi-second reflexes, poor judgement and tendency to panic-fire at teammates.

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 1:31pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

The main issue with cloud gaming is connectivity. I only subscribed to PSNOW becuase I can download PS4 games with it. I wouldnt be able to stream them.

I heard that only about 800,000 subscribers signed up for PSNOW, which is less than 1% of the # on PSN, and that's just sign-ups, not active users. I suspect many of them just signed up so they could download the old PS2 games.

ZiabR · 27-09-2019 2:11pm

hellboy99 wrote: »

Digiweb like most other ISPs may say they provide "unlimited" data but in actually fact they don't and have Fair Usage Policies in place. Check the T&Cs

https://digiweb.ie/product/electric-broadband-150/#tab-additional_information

If you say so

johnny_ultimate · 27-09-2019 2:39pm

Cloud gaming? I guess it depends how popular Final Fantasy 7 remake is.

I’m so very sorry

ZiabR · 27-09-2019 2:45pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Cloud gaming? I guess it depends how popular Final Fantasy 7 remake is.
I’m so very sorry

Back of the class now! and face the wall...

[Deleted User] · 27-09-2019 2:48pm

Cloud gaming definitely has a place in the future but I think, like mobile gaming, it will quickly become its own thing separate from the traditional style of gaming.
The Yanks need to sort out the licensing vs ownership issue with digital goods because Cloud gaming will definitely give rise to some big issues there once it gains a foothold

marcbrophy · 27-09-2019 2:56pm

Cake of Tremendous Power wrote: »

Cloud gaming definitely has a place in the future but I think, like mobile gaming, it will quickly become its own thing separate from the traditional style of gaming.
The Yanks need to sort out the licensing vs ownership issue with digital goods because Cloud gaming will definitely give rise to some big issues there once it gains a foothold

Once we are able to return or relinquish a digital license, this type of digital only gaming might become more popular for the masses.

Stadia is trying to be a barrier free* step into cloud gaming for everybody and be a full fledged geeks wet dream all at the same time! It's completely aimless. Though I'm hella interested in it myself and have ordered the founders edition bundle!

*= any existing wireless controller works with the service.

The high horse brigade · 27-09-2019 2:57pm

banie01 wrote: »

Which goes a long way towards showing that there may be a way to go yet before cloud gaming becomes normal.

As an example of cloud gaming.
I bought my 1st Nvidia Shield in 2015!
It came out of the box with Nvidia's Geforce Now cloud gaming service.
I don't own a gaming a pc, but I play a lot of PC games.
GTA V probably still at the top of my pile but lots available to me on Geforce now, Steam and Blizzard.

That Google Stadia is being touted as the future of cloud gaming is a little disingenuous.
Its been here, and been used for years.

Likewise I've not had my own gaming pc for a few years and have been playing pc games on a Shield using GeforceNow which works really well once you have decent bandwidth and the Shield on Ethernet

My son has a decent gaming pc and we've also been using Nvidia Gamestream to play Gears 5 and Forza on the main TV.

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 5:56pm

sugarman wrote: »

It will eventually.
I've tried Geforce Now and it was a mixed bag on my own 50Mb connection, kept going between 720p and 1080p during peak hours and some games ran better than others.

How did you find Geforce Now from a gaming perspective? Was it laggy?

The high horse brigade · 27-09-2019 10:28pm

sugarman wrote: »

I liked it whenever it worked properlly, it was great being able to login in on a POS laptop and play the latest AAA titles on High settings 1080p.. but that was rare, as I said Ive a 50Mb connection and it wasnt enough. When it was congested at peak times and down to 35Mb it was unplayable even though thats still above their minimum requirement. It really depended on the time of day, the title and resolution.

Id say you need to have a steady 80-100Mb connection for an enjoyable lag free experience.

Give their free trial a go sure.

I have a 90/20 connection and I'm using GeforceNow all the time and I would have a lot less than that at times to my Shield (4 adults and a junior living here at weekends with PCs, laptops, phones, smart TVs in bedrooms etc). I've measured the traffic on the port on my router and I'd say it works comfortably on anything over 25mbit but Ethernet most certainly is a must.

noel1980 · 27-09-2019 11:47pm

sugarman wrote: »

I liked it whenever it worked properlly, it was great being able to login in on a POS laptop and play the latest AAA titles on High settings 1080p.. but that was rare, as I said Ive a 50Mb connection and it wasnt enough. When it was congested at peak times and down to 35Mb it was unplayable even though thats still above their minimum requirement. It really depended on the time of day, the title and resolution.

Id say you need to have a steady 80-100Mb connection for an enjoyable lag free experience.

Give their free trial a go sure.

Thanks.

I might give the free trial a go. The throughput of your connection shouldn't have much bearing, ping is far more important. [low] Latency is Life

Will cloud gaming take off?

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