RWC - Have the refs been afraid of "spoiling" games with cards?

Sabre0001 · 23-09-2019 10:14am #1

A great weekend of rugby...but it hasn't been the most reassuring performance from the refs.

There are always going to be mistakes and contentious decisions, but considering the talk about clamping down on foul play and high hits, have the refs fluffed their lines? We've already seen a few instances where cards could have been doled out (at the risk of spoiling the game), but weren't...but Barnes brandishes a (harsh?) yellow to Beirne in a pretty much decided fixture.

https://twitter.com/Nabasboer/status/1175009756148326400

https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1175688949018386433

Then there are other instances where it should be asked if TMO should be allowed communicate more with referee (and not be taken by surprise if something is referred to them, as Baz and Andrew have talked about on House of Rugby).

https://twitter.com/thetoombulboyz/status/1175748096808108032

https://twitter.com/RutgerBlume/status/1176053213306470400

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/1175689711635107840

World Rugby has talked a good talk at times and with cards handed out in the build-up to the World Cup (Barrett for example), it looked like real action was going to be taken. But then Toner wasn't cited for a similar incident, these "tackles" occur on the opening weekend, and it looks like it was all a load of hot air.

I hope the World Cup is remembered for all the right reasons (Ireland winning, for example) and we've seen some great games so far. But there's always a risk that ref decisions will play a huge part (and not just from a sour grapes standpoint) and performances so far from some of the best in the business do little to quell those fears.

blackwhite · 23-09-2019 1:04pm

Sabre0001 wrote: »

A great weekend of rugby...but it hasn't been the most reassuring performance from the refs.

There are always going to be mistakes and contentious decisions, but considering the talk about clamping down on foul play and high hits, have the refs fluffed their lines? We've already seen a few instances where cards could have been doled out (at the risk of spoiling the game), but weren't...but Barnes brandishes a (harsh?) yellow to Beirne in a pretty much decided fixture.

https://twitter.com/Nabasboer/status/1175009756148326400

https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1175688949018386433

Then there are other instances where it should be asked if TMO should be allowed communicate more with referee (and not be taken by surprise if something is referred to them, as Baz and Andrew have talked about on House of Rugby).

https://twitter.com/thetoombulboyz/status/1175748096808108032

https://twitter.com/RutgerBlume/status/1176053213306470400

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/1175689711635107840

World Rugby has talked a good talk at times and with cards handed out in the build-up to the World Cup (Barrett for example), it looked like real action was going to be taken. But then Toner wasn't cited for a similar incident, these "tackles" occur on the opening weekend, and it looks like it was all a load of hot air.

I hope the World Cup is remembered for all the right reasons (Ireland winning, for example) and we've seen some great games so far. But there's always a risk that ref decisions will play a huge part (and not just from a sour grapes standpoint) and performances so far from some of the best in the business do little to quell those fears.

There's certainly an argument about the angle Healy cleared him out from (possibly ran around the tackler and then drove from the side) - not a yellow card offence but certainly an argument for a penalty.

The claim that Furlong didn't bind is ridiculous though - he literally grabs a fistful of jersey right on the number on the shirt before making contact with any other part of his body.

It was an unfortunate injury - with possibly an infringement from Healy - but nothing card-worthy there.

The NZ and Aus offences are both fairly clear-cut though - not sure how TMO didn't ping either of them.

Given World Rugby's attempts to water down the Red card in advance of the tournament, you'd wonder what guidance has been given to referees

sydthebeat · 23-09-2019 1:20pm

i dont have a problem with the first and last ones.

labuschag stood his ground and braced himself for impact... so it was more the russia player hitting him than the other way round.

while healy is in at the side, he doesnt actually clear out watson. Furlong does and unfortunately watsons legs is caught under healy. penalty at most for in at the side, but even at that you could argue that Healys first contact is straight on and he only wheels after contact.

the Hodge one is a straight up red card and its ridiculous the TMO missed it. fiji should have been playing aginst 14 men for 55 minutes.... instead they lost their more effective player after 25 mins.

i hadnt seen that reed one until now. Its head contact and probably a yellow card in the course of the game. the force is minimal as its a pull back rather than an impact.

so all in all, 1st one play on, 2nd one red card, 3rd one yellow card, 4th one penalty.

randomname2005 · 23-09-2019 1:36pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont have a problem with the first and last ones.

labuschag stood his ground and braced himself for impact... so it was more the russia player hitting him than the other way round.

while healy is in at the side, he doesnt actually clear out watson. Furlong does and unfortunately watsons legs is caught under healy. penalty at most for in at the side, but even at that you could argue that Healys first contact is straight on and he only wheels after contact.

the Hodge one is a straight up red card and its ridiculous the TMO missed it. fiji should have been playing aginst 14 men for 55 minutes.... instead they lost their more effective player after 25 mins.

i hadnt seen that reed one until now. Its head contact and probably a yellow card in the course of the game. the force is minimal as its a pull back rather than an impact.

so all in all, 1st one play on, 2nd one red card, 3rd one yellow card, 4th one penalty.

I'd have to disagree with you on the first one. There is standing your ground, which is okay, but the player is pivoting on his right leg, bringing the left side of his body around and it is his left shoulder which makes contact. To me it looks like he is initially shaping up to tackle square on, sees the ball get kicked and then brings his body around to make contact with the player. Did he intend to have shoulder/head impact? Who knows, but the IRB have constantly beaten the drum about players being responsible for their own actions. Albeit on and off and on and off again.

Aus/Fiji, red card

NZ/SA, could go either way, given that it is off the ball. A player reaching out in reaction and making that impact might expect a yellow, but that was pure foul play.

IRL/SCO - an accident, unlucky, but if that is a penalty, then you would have to consider the similar incident in the Aus/Fiji match to be a penalty too.

sydthebeat · 23-09-2019 1:48pm

well the first incident hasnt been cited, so assuming they have reviewed it theyve deemed it not to be foul play.

i dont understand your last point... was there a similar incident in the aus / figi match where a penalty wasnt given?

NeonWolf · 23-09-2019 1:55pm

Ardie Savea wore PSDT as a necklace for a carry at one stage. PSDT headlocked him in front of Garces for a ten yard lateral carry. He then finished it off in style with a neck roll. Garces abdicated responsibility completely and was looking at it the whole time.

fryup · 23-09-2019 1:57pm

all depends on the personality of the ref i think,

randomname2005 · 23-09-2019 1:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

well the first incident hasnt been cited, so assuming they have reviewed it theyve deemed it not to be foul play.

i dont understand your last point... was there a similar incident in the aus / figi match where a penalty wasnt given?

They did deem it not to be foul play. I just think that given what red cards have been given for in the past, it could have been red.

The Fiji/Aus incident, if the link copied correctly:

https://twitter.com/peterrobinson86/status/1175291893514743809?s=19

NeonWolf · 23-09-2019 3:39pm

It’s all going to end in tears for many fans at this World Cup.

We have had a four year cycle of gifs ,Joe.ie, newstalk OTB , squidge , Sumo Stevenson , podcasts , twitter vids .Everyone is a pundit now and we are all keeping score in our heads. When Scott Barrett gets a red then I want Toner to walk too.
Coupled with inconsistent refereeing and inconsistent citings everyone including myself is waiting to be outraged if not already there . The arbitrary application of the laws and by extension the inherent biases towards bigger teams makes the whole hinge bit of a farce. How hooper can clean out like that unpenalised is just unfathomable. The ref is right there.

The likes Poite and Garces are lucky to be getting such high profile gigs after the Lions second and third test debacle. And there is talk abound that Garces will get the final this year. That’s just not right. He has been abject.

NeonWolf · 23-09-2019 3:42pm

Furlong is doing exactly what coaches and fans want him to do , but I hate those cleans now. From Jean de Villiers knee against Wales to Dan Leavy and now Hamish Watson they have to stop lads flying in horizontal off their feet. Cleaning should be more like line of scrimmage shoving in NFL style. Furlong (and his ilk)hitting a fellas legs like that at speed is crazy. All teams are at it, it’s not a dig at Furlong.

AbusesToilets · 23-09-2019 6:03pm

The refs are directly responsible for the mess that is the breakdown. I don't buy for a second this claim that they have to let the game flow and not be whistle happy. That approach is why there's so much messing in rucks.

Basic stuff like keeping your shoulders above hips, players releasing the ball when tackled, staying on one's feet, entering through the gate. All consistently ignored. The ruck is probably the most frequently occuring facet of the game, they have to get it right.

The Lost Sheep · 23-09-2019 6:08pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The refs are directly responsible for the mess that is the breakdown. I don't buy for a second this claim that they have to let the game flow and not be whistle happy. That approach is why there's so much messing in rucks.

Basic stuff like keeping your shoulders above hips, players releasing the ball when tackled, staying on one's feet, entering through the gate. All consistently ignored. The ruck is probably the most frequently occuring facet of the game, they have to get it right.

Yes they do. There is a balance between continuity of play and continuity of possession and blowing up for penalties/waiting for advantage etc is part of that.

AbusesToilets · 23-09-2019 6:25pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes they do. There is a balance between continuity of play and continuity of possession and blowing up for penalties/waiting for advantage etc is part of that.

Agree to a point, players are coached to infringe until called on it. I'd endure a few matches full of penalties of it meant teams started to play to the laws. I'd also argue that the flow of the game is hurt more by a laissez faire approach. Quick ruck ball is denied by cynical play, making for a slower, less entertaining game.

The Lost Sheep · 23-09-2019 7:10pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Agree to a point, players are coached to infringe until called on it. I'd endure a few matches full of penalties of it meant teams started to play to the laws. I'd also argue that the flow of the game is hurt more by a laissez faire approach. Quick ruck ball is denied by cynical play, making for a slower, less entertaining game.

Never going to happen. It would ruin games and players will still do it. It happens at all levels of game. Flow of game is not at all hurt by this approach. You automatically have a slower game if your game is full of penalties and that wont change players behaviour so much into the long term

AbusesToilets · 23-09-2019 10:23pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Never going to happen. It would ruin games and players will still do it. It happens at all levels of game. Flow of game is not at all hurt by this approach. You automatically have a slower game if your game is full of penalties and that wont change players behaviour so much into the long term

So get rid of all laws then, if they're meaningless. Of course you're not going to change players behavior if they know the rules don't matter.

Dog Botherer · 23-09-2019 10:24pm

Watson was horrifically unlucky, but as far as I can see neither Irish prop committed any offense, certainly none worthy of a card. Hodge definitely deserved a red, the Japan second row probably the same. I reckon the officials were loathe to send off anyone from the host nation in the first game of the tournament, and as for the Australia/Fiji game, the entire officiating team collectively shat the bed. Shouldn’t be happening at this level and I doubt Mr O’Keefe will be getting many games of note for some time.

You’d want to watch out for that @theblitzdefence Twitter account, I had to block them years ago, all they do is stoke controversy for attention.

The Lost Sheep · 23-09-2019 10:44pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So get rid of all laws then, if they're meaningless. Of course you're not going to change players behavior if they know the rules don't matter.

Never said or implied laws are meaningless. Watch games pro or amatuer and you will see refs not following the laws to a tee as its not possible. You cant. They are laws for a reason. Laws are interpreted. Refs use their judgement to allow what they feel/see is best for the game in question.

AbusesToilets · 23-09-2019 11:40pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Never said or implied laws are meaningless. Watch games pro or amatuer and you will see refs not following the laws to a tee as its not possible. You cant. They are laws for a reason. Laws are interpreted. Refs use their judgement to allow what they feel/see is best for the game in question.

I would argue that any law that is so inconsistently applied is meaningless. If a team/ player can't be sure exactly how they will be judged, then something is wrong.

The game would be better, both for player safety and as a spectacle if they improved the reffing surrounding the breakdown imo. No hands, no ballistic entries, no sealing off, force teams to actually have to ruck.

The Lost Sheep · 24-09-2019 12:00am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I would argue that any law that is so inconsistently applied is meaningless. If a team/ player can't be sure exactly how they will be judged, then something is wrong.

The game would be better, both for player safety and as a spectacle if they improved the reffing surrounding the breakdown imo. No hands, no ballistic entries, no sealing off, force teams to actually have to ruck.

These things arent allowed by law but will you see everything that breaks the law sanctioned every time. Hell no because it would ruin every game at every level in every country. Its not possible.

AbusesToilets · 24-09-2019 12:20am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

These things arent allowed by law but will you see everything that breaks the law sanctioned every time. Hell no because it would ruin every game at every level in every country. Its not possible.

It's possible of they make the effort. Clearly state they will penalise it, carry thru, and you'd see a change in behavior. No hands in the ruck period would be a good catalyst, as I'd argue that's the Genesis for the rest of it.

Trey13 · 24-09-2019 12:27am

To be honest I think Healy’s attempt there should be a card. Leavy, De Villiers and I’m sure many players at amateur and all levels have suffered torn acls and dislocated knees from cheap shots like that.
When I get an opportunity to get over the ball like Watson there I genuinely fear that someone will come in on my knee and severely hurt me. Contact should be square on the body.

The Lost Sheep · 24-09-2019 12:29am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's possible of they make the effort. Clearly state they will penalise it, carry thru, and you'd see a change in behavior. No hands in the ruck period would be a good catalyst, as I'd argue that's the Genesis for the rest of it.

It isnt at all bloody possible. I know you watch rugby but you are either trolling or havent a notion of what you're saying if you think its possible. You dont simply punish every law infringement. You cant. Going penalise every hands in the ruck. That doesnt help the sport, the game. You cant have concrete decisions like that.

Steve · 24-09-2019 12:33am

Having looked at the first few RWC games, the refs are doing what they have always done. Part of the game plan is knowing the ref. Yeah there are some relatively new faces in RWC, like in the wales game this morning, but I thought the decisions were fair..

Then there are the old hands, the RB try, every time I look at it was questionable in my opinion... but what do I know?

sdanseo · 24-09-2019 12:54am

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I reckon the officials were loathe to send off anyone from the host nation in the first game of the tournament, and as for the Australia/Fiji game, the entire officiating team collectively shat the bed. Shouldn’t be happening at this level and I doubt Mr O’Keefe will be getting many games of note for some time.

We have a TMO for helping them decide things like that. Not spotting it is maybe basic error. Not checking it is woeful.

Steve wrote: »

Having looked at the first few RWC games, the refs are doing what they have always done. Part of the game plan is knowing the ref. Yeah there are some relatively new faces in RWC, like in the wales game this morning, but I thought the decisions were fair..

Then there are the old hands, the RB try, every time I look at it was questionable in my opinion... but what do I know?

Great example. If WB had gone upstairs the try would not have been awarded on either question in my view.
Try no try: No because no downward pressure clear and obvious
Any reason: you can quite plainly see there is no downward pressure on or beyond the line

Dog Botherer · 24-09-2019 1:02am

sdanseo wrote: »

We have a TMO for helping them decide things like that. Not spotting it is maybe basic error. Not checking it is woeful.

I agree. The Fiji one was especially bad because the TMO reviewed it and didn’t find it worthy of even a penalty offense.

Trey13 wrote: »

To be honest I think Healy’s attempt there should be a card. Leavy, De Villiers and I’m sure many players at amateur and all levels have suffered torn acls and dislocated knees from cheap shots like that.
When I get an opportunity to get over the ball like Watson there I genuinely fear that someone will come in on my knee and severely hurt me. Contact should be square on the body.

Please, please, please, explain to me how a player binding onto an opposition player, staying on their feet and driving them off the ball is a ****ing “cheap shot”.

AbusesToilets · 24-09-2019 1:23am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt at all bloody possible. I know you watch rugby but you are either trolling or havent a notion of what you're saying if you think its possible. You dont simply punish every law infringement. You cant. Going penalise every hands in the ruck. That doesnt help the sport, the game. You cant have concrete decisions like that.

You can do significantly better. There are plenty of ways the situation could be improved. Simply the laws, focus on fundamental aspects of the laws and enforce them. You say it's impossible, but they're barely even trying. It's a damning indictment of the game if, as you insist , the game would be ruined by a ref calling the game according to the laws.

Podge_irl · 24-09-2019 5:40am

sdanseo wrote: »

We have a TMO for helping them decide things like that. Not spotting it is maybe basic error. Not checking it is woeful.

Great example. If WB had gone upstairs the try would not have been awarded on either question in my view.
Try no try: No because no downward pressure clear and obvious
Any reason: you can quite plainly see there is no downward pressure on or beyond the line

You don’t need downward pressure on a ball in your possession.

They also don’t ask those questions anymore. They announce an on field decision and see if it is overruled by video.

Captain_Crash · 24-09-2019 8:00am

sdanseo wrote: »

Great example. If WB had gone upstairs the try would not have been awarded on either question in my view.
Try no try: No because no downward pressure clear and obvious
Any reason: you can quite plainly see there is no downward pressure on or beyond the line

Those questions aren't asked anymore. The ref has to make a decision on field and then can ask the TMO to review it. But for arguments sake, lets say he did ask them

Try no try: No because no downward pressure clear and obvious - you don't need downward pressure if you are in possession, the ball only has to touch grass, which we can all agree it did.... try!

Any reason: you can quite plainly see there is no downward pressure on or beyond the line - this question actually suggests the try has been scored. So by asking it the ref presumed by definition that the ball touched the grass (which is clearly did in this case), so no reason not to award it hence... try time!

Sabre0001 · 24-09-2019 11:54am

TMO made a call in Russia v Samoa to have a look at a tackle, so that's something.

But then backed away from the red. Pretty generous mitigating circumstance saying that the ball carrier ducked a little bit imo.

Salary Negotiator · 24-09-2019 11:56am

Sabre0001 wrote: »

TMO made a call in Russia v Samoa to have a look at a tackle, so that's something.

But then backed away from the red. Pretty generous mitigating circumstance saying that the ball carrier ducked a little bit imo.

And again 2 minutes later.

Snow Garden · 24-09-2019 11:58am

The first high tackle should have been a red. It might have prevented the second high tackle. TMO and ref took an easy option citing a nonsense mitigating factor (that players were ducking).

RWC - Have the refs been afraid of "spoiling" games with cards?

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