How to improve Dublin's infrastructure

Geoffrey Paintstripper · 06-09-2019 8:53pm #1

Here are my suggestions on how Dublin's infrastructure can be improved:

1. Extend the DART to Drogheda, Kilcock and Navan, complete the DART Underground so that it would run on to Kildare station, have the Luas interconnect at Connolly, extend the Green Line to Bray where it would interconnect with the DART there. Build the Metrolink but have the northern terminus at Belinstown and the southern terminus at St. Stephen's Green as per Metro North plans. Allow an interchange at Dardistown for a future western line along the route of the Metro West. Make provisions for an extension to the Luas Green Line to the western Metrolink from Broombridge through Finglas.
2. Quad track all main lines from Connolly. Have Park and Rides along all railway main lines from Dublin. At the Northern and Southern ends of the Metro Link and on all the main DART lines.
3. Widen the M50 to four lanes from junction 3 to 14, not 3 + 1 aux lane, four FULL lanes + hard shoulder. M2, M3 and M4 should be upgraded to motorway standard from the M50 junctions, not being the N2, N3 and N4 for a few exits and then becoming motorways, allowing for motorway-to-motorway interchanges. The M50 should end at junction 14 and the M11 should start there.
4. Extend the M2 from Ashbourne to north of Ardee so that HGVs can bypass the deathtrap bridge in Slane and other hazards on the current road. Extend the M3 from Kells to Cavan. Extend the M7 motorway from Naas to Junction 8 M50 in FULL three-lane motorway standard.
5. Replace the roundabout at the M1 exit for Dublin Airport and replace it with a trumpet junction. Partially grade separate the Airport Motorway spur junction with the R132 so that traffic can cross from the M1 into the Airport without crossing the old N1.
6. Expand Dublin Airport westwards so that the western perimeter road is from the R108 roundabout just east of Keelings to the junction with the R108 that runs alongside RWY10 and past the Horizon Logistics Park to Harristown cross. This would mean that the Airport would be a rough even shape, the only bad thing is the demolition of the Boot Inn but it would give the Airport more room to expand in the future, including building Terminal 3.

Any other suggestions?

Mod: Thread closed as OP banned. Checking if it should be reopened.

Tomrota · 06-09-2019 9:11pm

Why build two three lane motorways to Naas? That just makes driving for commuters even more attractive and clogging the M50. Naas needs actual public transport to catch up with the rest of the commuter belt and DART.

When DART to Kilcock, Naas, and Drogheda are complete (and DART Underground) to interchange with metro north and metro west, there will be a comprehensive rail network in place for all of Dublin and its commuter belt making using the train easier, more reliable and more attractive. You will be able to travel anywhere in the greater Dublin area in a much shorter time and metro and DART is a lot more reliable than bus which encourages use. Just look at Amsterdam.

Metro, LUAS, and DART is the way forward- not building more roads and extending lanes in my opinion. I don’t think the metropolitan area can deal with an increase in capacity of the M50. A four laned motorway which exits off onto mostly two or one lane roads just doesn’t work. It barely works with the current M50. That’s why we need to bring an actual transport system to the city via rail.

The M45 (or whatever the outer orbital route is called) will be more effective than adding more lanes to M50 in my opinion.

KevRossi · 06-09-2019 9:15pm

Widening the M50 does nothing, just pushes the same traffic to a different place.
Dublin has a network of roads that are built on a road system hundreds of years old, you can't widen these roads so we have to make do with what we have.

Start at the cheap and basic solutions:
1. Get schools to introduce walking and cycle trains, ban parking within a radius of 200m of every school and pick drop off points for these schools where cars do not interfere with traffic, then police this with an iron fist.

2, Promote cycling; extend the Dublin Bike scheme, introduce Bike to Work scheme with higher payments for E-Bikes. Improve cycling infrastructure, especially between the canals.

3. Flat rate of €1 (or free) for public transport between from 5.00-10.00 and 15.00-19.00

4. Increase the amount of buses, take on the unions and make routes more flexible.

5. Scrap all existing routes and numbers and introduce new routes that are based on how people are moving today and not in Victorian times.

6. 120km of new Luas routes, introduce BRT in the meantime while this is being built.

7. DART underground and extend the DART with a 10 minute intervals.

8. Most buses to be feeder buses for Luas, BRT and DART systems.

9. Integrated ticketing, drivers to stop selling tickets, reintroduce ticket inspectors.

10. Encourage delivery companies to use cargo bikes and cargo bike systems to deliver 50% + of their 'last mile' deliveries.

Private cars will have to give way to facilitate the above, it is by far the most inefficient use of road space that exists for moving people. If this means banning them from major routes into the city once alternatives are introduced then so be it. The city is choked with them and they hinder the movement of far more many people who use sustainable and efficient means of transport.

Geoffrey Paintstripper · 06-09-2019 9:27pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Why build two three lane motorways to Naas? That just makes driving for commuters even more attractive and clogging the M50. Naas needs actual public transport to catch up with the rest of the commuter belt and DART.

When DART to Kilcock, Naas, and Drogheda are complete (and DART Underground) to interchange with metro north and metro west, there will be a comprehensive rail network in place for all of Dublin and its commuter belt making using the train easier, more reliable and more attractive. You will be able to travel anywhere in the greater Dublin area in a much shorter time and metro and DART is a lot more reliable than bus which encourages use. Just look at Amsterdam.

Metro, LUAS, and DART is the way forward- not building more roads and extending lanes in my opinion. I don’t think the metropolitan area can deal with an increase in capacity of the M50. A four laned motorway which exits off onto mostly two or one lane roads just doesn’t work. It barely works with the current M50. That’s why we need to bring an actual transport system to the city via rail.

The M45 (or whatever the outer orbital route is called) will be more effective than adding more lanes to M50 in my opinion.

Here is how the M25 was widened and how the M50 should be:

youtube.com/watch?v=EtK8m1gRqYI

There are numerous other four-lane motorways in Europe around similar-sized cities to Dublin and they seem to be working out well.

Zebra3 · 06-09-2019 10:01pm

Why not give everyone their own free spaceship? :rolleyes:

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-09-2019 10:24pm

Looking at the uk's 'HS2' cost (up again from 53bn 4yrs ago, to £88bn - as the latest estimate) and delayed again (by 7yrs) not expected to be complete until 2040.

Wouldn't ye ole Hyperloop have been a handier plan. Essentially it's just a empty light small vacum tube (no moving/servicable parts), elevated up on stilts, that sends it's PODs around faster than airtravel.
Shouldn't all countries start to consider it as a serious option. e.g. Would £50bn not cover the costs of such a project between a few linear cities. Consider also running costs: simple magnet flipping in a vacum.

LeinsterDub · 06-09-2019 10:30pm

An aggressive approach taken to illegal parking
both in the city and suburbs. Car ownership is so high because we've allowed people to park where ever they like.

CatInABox · 06-09-2019 10:37pm

Magnolia Refined Pup wrote: »

Looking at the uk's 'HS2' cost (up again from 53bn 4yrs ago, to £88bn - as the latest estimate) and delayed again (by 7yrs) not expected to be complete until 2040.

Wouldn't ye ole Hyperloop have been a handier plan. Essentially it's just a empty light small vacum tube (no moving/servicable parts), elevated up on stilts, that sends it's PODs around faster than airtravel.
Shouldn't all countries start to consider it as a serious option. e.g. Would £50bn not cover the costs of such a project between a few linear cities. Consider also running costs: simple magnet flipping in a vacum.

Honestly, there's no real estimate as to how much such a system would cost. You could fire £50bn into hyperloop and not even solve the basic problems with it. If we had a €50bn to plow into public transport though, you could basically solve the problem in Ireland, just with existing technologies.

Zebra3 · 06-09-2019 10:45pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

An aggressive approach taken to illegal parking
both in the city and suburbs. Car ownership is so high because we've allowed people to park where ever they like.

Yep, the privatisation of public space.

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-09-2019 10:53pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Honestly, there's no real estimate as to how much such a system would cost. You could fire £50bn into hyperloop and not even solve the basic problems with it. If we had a €50bn to plow into public transport though, you could basically solve the problem in Ireland, just with existing technologies.

Agree that it needs some proven concepts to examine, and maybe they'll come in time when Musk/Virgin get better organised with examples.

Then again a glimpse at traditional high speed rail HS2 in the uk, which serves x20 the population of Ire could, over the same distance (lower cost per user). And still the cost/time/disruption is gigantic. Then what if the wrong type of snow/leaves fall on the exposed track.

2040 and the best part of £100bn for a train that might be lucky to operate at full speed for the entire journey duration.

Last Stop · 07-09-2019 12:03am

What is it about boards that people come on suggesting
A) projects in the pipeline

widening the M50
C) extending the public transport network miles outside the critical mass
as the solution to Dublin’s transport problems thinking they are absolute geniuses.

Can we all take a step back and understand what the M50 was designed as and what it is currently acting as.
The M50 was designed as essentially a bypass of Dublin. When it was being planned no one could have envisioned the city would sprawl as much as it has. However the biggest problem with the M50 is the lack of viable alternatives between certain junctions. This means that it is being used as a local/commuter route which it is not designed for. To solve this, extending the outer ring road between the N4 and N3 is required at a minimum.

Talk of LOOR (or M45?) is nonsense. Traffic on the M50 as mentioned is primarily moving around Dublin. The numbers that would use an M45 to travel from say Cork to Belfast would be very small and almost certainly wouldn’t justify the cost of a motorway. The orbital route that should be upgrade is the N80/N52. This route is already there, sufficiently away from the commuter belt and could be upgraded gradually over time.

The real solution to Dublin’s transport problems is of course investment. Unfortunately when we have a government who are obsessed with tax cuts to buy an election that’s unlikely and odds are we’ll still be here in 20 years time with some genius suggesting widening the m50 as the solution

u140acro3xs7dm · 07-09-2019 12:01pm

Most of the traffic is people travelling from commuter counties, or trying to get to one of the business districts off the m50 - normally 1 to a car.

Public transport is not an attractive option. The Dart is single track after Bray - and is every 30 mins from Greystones, often standing room only, and it takes an hour into town. To get to Citywest or Sandyford you need to get a luas from the city centre, not much use if you're travelling from a commuter county.

Try get from Tallaght to Blanch on public transport, takes hours.

There are 2 trains in the morning from Wicklow/wexford into town, again they are jammed and slow.

Orbital routes along the m50 would make a huge impact once they are for for purpose.

Free park and rides at all train stations would also help. With urban sprawl, its often a long walk to the station. Personally it takes 20 mins to walk to the station, then 1.5 hours on a train. I can drive it in under an hour, and is probably cheaper.

Maybe look at car pooling lanes.

A proper functioning school bus system would be massive. Look at the difference when the kids are off school. I know of kids getting dropped to school instead of walking 10 minutes.

Markcheese · 07-09-2019 12:53pm

Magnolia Refined Pup wrote: »

Looking at the uk's 'HS2' cost (up again from 53bn 4yrs ago, to £88bn - as the latest estimate) and delayed again (by 7yrs) not expected to be complete until 2040.

Wouldn't ye ole Hyperloop have been a handier plan. Essentially it's just a empty light small vacum tube (no moving/servicable parts), elevated up on stilts, that sends it's PODs around faster than airtravel.
Shouldn't all countries start to consider it as a serious option. e.g. Would £50bn not cover the costs of such a project between a few linear cities. Consider also running costs: simple magnet flipping in a vacum.

There's a lot of reasons why the hyperloop is a non flyer, including it doesn't really exist yet...
Safety is another, being in a tube that suffers a depressurisation would be pretty catastrophic... It would probably need airport style check in and security, operating costs would probably be sky high,
Plus it wouldn't really suit short commuter traffic...

Markcheese · 07-09-2019 12:58pm

Actually, public transport to the "commuter transport" is ideal...
Coaches.... But they'd need to be able to access/interchange with public transport when they get to the city....

D.L.R. · 07-09-2019 3:46pm

How to improve Dublin's infrastructure? Focus on increasing capacity through Dublin city, which is totally inadequate.

Extensions to Drogheda and Navan are all well and good but they just add more traffic to a system that's already bursting at the seams. We need to move beyond "masterplans" that just amount to commuter belt extensions. They don't address the main problem.

We focus on the glamour projects of DU/Metro, but there's so much more we could be doing in the meantime. We need to upgrade the lines into Connolly, finish 4-tracking Heuston hopefully sometime this century, and expand Connolly with new platforms to the west and upgrade the throat. These are fairly simple concepts, but getting the investment seems to be a massive problem. How long has the Connolly resignalling taken? Decades.

This country needs to get the finger out.

Maybe Europe can step in, but something needs to change politically. There's not a single piece of major transport infrastructure being built in Dublin city right now.

Larbre34 · 07-09-2019 5:44pm

DART interconnector to be built in full

Close all at-grade level crossings in greater Dublin

Invest in 5 top quality park and rides on M1, N3, N4, N7 and N11 for QBC Bus and / or Luas and cycling connection. Services and facilities to be provided.

Invest in the M1 to M7 outer bypass of Dublin and concentrate bulk and container traffic to ports other than Dublin. Dublin has a massive amount of traffic coming onto or inside the M50 it does not need to see.

Last Stop · 07-09-2019 6:37pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

DART interconnector to be built in full

Close all at-grade level crossings in greater Dublin

Invest in 5 top quality park and rides on M1, N3, N4, N7 and N11 for QBC Bus and / or Luas and cycling connection. Services and facilities to be provided.

Invest in the M1 to M7 outer bypass of Dublin and concentrate bulk and container traffic to ports other than Dublin. Dublin has a massive amount of traffic coming onto or inside the M50 it does not need to see.

Wow that easy, sure make a call to Shane Ross there as you seem to have solved the problem :rolleyes:

There is no way to close some games of the level crossings on the south side of the city. Sure they stopped a metro over plans to close one of them.

Metrolink has a park + ride on the M1
Pace m3 is on the m3
Red cow on the n7

Again the M1 to M7 link would be a waste of money. The biggest problem on the m50 is not through traffic from the port etc. (That’s what it’s designed for) it’s commuter traffic jumping between junctions

Last Stop · 07-09-2019 6:40pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

How to improve Dublin's infrastructure? Focus on increasing capacity through Dublin city, which is totally inadequate.

Extensions to Drogheda and Navan are all well and good but they just add more traffic to a system that's already bursting at the seams. We need to move beyond "masterplans" that just amount to commuter belt extensions. They don't address the main problem.

We focus on the glamour projects of DU/Metro, but there's so much more we could be doing in the meantime. We need to upgrade the lines into Connolly, finish 4-tracking Heuston hopefully sometime this century, and expand Connolly with new platforms to the west and upgrade the throat. These are fairly simple concepts, but getting the investment seems to be a massive problem. How long has the Connolly resignalling taken? Decades.

This country needs to get the finger out.

Maybe Europe can step in, but something needs to change politically. There's not a single piece of major transport infrastructure being built in Dublin city right now.

All of the things you’ve mentioned are part of the dart expansion project as in:
4 tracking to Heuston
New platforms/ reconfiguration of Docklands/ Connolly.
Electrification of the Maynooth line

Larbre34 · 07-09-2019 7:46pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Wow that easy, sure make a call to Shane Ross there as you seem to have solved the problem :rolleyes:

Thread said how to 'improve' not how to solve. These measures are all practical and deliverable if the political vision was there.

I wouldn't trust Shane Ross to deliver my takeaway, but all the same, keep the smartarsey to yourself.

Last Stop · 07-09-2019 11:46pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thread said how to 'improve' not how to solve. These measures are all practical and deliverable if the political vision was there.

I wouldn't trust Shane Ross to deliver my takeaway, but all the same, keep the smartarsey to yourself.

The majority of what you have suggested is either in plans or won’t improve the problem. If you go back to my original post on this thread I’ve questioned why so many people come on here and make the same suggestions as if it would make all the issues disappear when in reality none of what has been suggested will improve the problems in Dublin.
Park + ride for buses? Really?
Moving freight away from Dublin? Seriously?
An outer ring road from the M7 to the M1. Will take very little traffic off the M50

caff · 08-09-2019 4:54pm

mickthorpe907 wrote: »

What would be ideal is if the M7 continued from the new Junction 9a and went on its own towards the M50, terminating at a new Junction 8. That way there would be a full motorway-standard M7, and that pathetic triple carriageway that is there now from the Red Cow would be detrunked to the R445. Three-lane full motorway from Naas to the M50.

Also, I do not see the harm in widening the M50 to four lanes. Here is how it would be done:

1. Clear the verges on both sides.
2. Install retaining walls on both sides.
3. Install lighting and gantry bases on both sides.
4. Add one full lane + hard shoulder on both sides.
5. Resurface the existing three lanes on both sides.
6. Remove central lighting and barriers.
7. Clear the central reservation.
8. Install concrete safety barrier in central reservation.
9. Resurface central reservation.
10. Install gantry.

BINGO! You have a full four-lane motorway from M50 Junction 3 to Junction 14. For the Westlink that can't be widened just remove the hard shoulder.

Could it be any easier?

Close off a lane and throw an orbital metro on it.

D.L.R. · 08-09-2019 4:56pm

Direct intercity rail services to Dublin Airport. That takes a lot of traffic off the Dublin road network.

All you’d need is a new branch from the Kildare line going around Dublin to the Airport and on to the Northern line. About 20-30km total.

Last Stop · 08-09-2019 5:03pm

mickthorpe907 wrote: »

What would be ideal is if the M7 continued from the new Junction 9a and went on its own towards the M50, terminating at a new Junction 8. That way there would be a full motorway-standard M7, and that pathetic triple carriageway that is there now from the Red Cow would be detrunked to the R445. Three-lane full motorway from Naas to the M50.

Also, I do not see the harm in widening the M50 to four lanes. Here is how it would be done:

1. Clear the verges on both sides.
2. Install retaining walls on both sides.
3. Install lighting and gantry bases on both sides.
4. Add one full lane + hard shoulder on both sides.
5. Resurface the existing three lanes on both sides.
6. Remove central lighting and barriers.
7. Clear the central reservation.
8. Install concrete safety barrier in central reservation.
9. Resurface central reservation.
10. Install gantry.

BINGO! You have a full four-lane motorway from M50 Junction 3 to Junction 14. For the Westlink that can't be widened just remove the hard shoulder.

Could it be any easier?

What benefit does adding a new motorway from Naas give? All you are doing is increasing traffic on the M50. Plus the fact that the N7 has sufficient capacity as is and there is little wrong with except that people like to complain.

As regards widening the M50, you have obviously not realised that on some of structures on the M50 there is no hard shoulder so it cannot be widened. And there is no hard shoulder on the west link!!
So to answer your question, yes it could be easier

soirish · 08-09-2019 5:04pm

More bike lanes and e-scooters can help a lot.

Markcheese · 08-09-2019 7:03pm

caff wrote: »

Close off a lane and throw an orbital metro on it.

I'd do a Brt rather than a metro, asap... Hard shoulder running for anywhere that's possible, and encourage, park and ride, local bus stops, bike parks, coach parks Ect at every stop,
(try get largish employers and industrial estates in the m50 area to organise direct buses to their nearest stop)
(Brt to be flexible, but it wouldn't be cheap, could be the busiest public transport link in Dublin)

How to improve Dublin's infrastructure

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