Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

Qrt · 27-05-2019 10:25pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The word sarcasm doesn’t do my suggestion justice. Think father jack Level of sarcasm!

I read the response in a Dick Byrne à la A Song for Europe manner

strassenwo!f · 03-06-2019 9:20pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh mate....

It is a first on this board, for me, where someone quotes a bone fide reason for editing as a reason for a quote, rather than anything in the post itself. In this case, it seems I wasn't making myself clear enough,

But what I posted earlier has been much on my mind over the last number of days or so, so I would like to rephrase the figures, and I hope they help:

I think they should be better rephased as:

it should be Cabra LUAS stop: Des Kelly site: DART line at Newcomen Bridge = 0.5 km:2.4 km. Now rephrased as LUAS Green line:metro:DART = 1:4.8)

And Cabra LUAS stop: Drumcondra Road: DART line at Newcomen Bridge (now rephrased as 1:0.9)

There's a very big discrepancy here, in terms of overlaps of catchment areas of northside rail lines into/out of the city:1:4.8 versus 1:0.9.

If the poster CatinABox is correct, in his earlier post, that it will take 80-90 years for a second metro line to be built in Dublin, then the ratios shown above would be a very inefficient way for Dubliners to be picked up by rail in the meantime.

It should be much more efficient to find a solution for a metro interchange at Drumcondra.

MJohnston · 04-06-2019 10:26am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It is a first on this board, for me, where someone quotes a bone fide reason for editing as a reason for a quote, rather than anything in the post itself. In this case, it seems I wasn't making myself clear enough,

But what I posted earlier has been much on my mind over the last number of days or so, so I would like to rephrase the figures, and I hope they help:

I think they should be better rephased as:

it should be Cabra LUAS stop: Des Kelly site: DART line at Newcomen Bridge = 0.5 km:2.4 km. Now rephrased as LUAS Green line:metro:DART = 1:4.8)

And Cabra LUAS stop: Drumcondra Road: DART line at Newcomen Bridge (now rephrased as 1:0.9)

There's a very big discrepancy here, in terms of overlaps of catchment areas of northside rail lines into/out of the city:1:4.8 versus 1:0.9.

If the poster CatinABox is correct, in his earlier post, that it will take 80-90 years for a second metro line to be built in Dublin, then the ratios shown above would be a very inefficient way for Dubliners to be picked up by rail in the meantime.

It should be much more efficient to find a solution for a metro interchange at Drumcondra.

The ratios are meaningless though — you're just (I'm not entirely clear on this because your posts are rambling streams of consciousness but...) comparing distances between lines? Is that it? That's the only metric you're going to use to compare whether these things can feasibly overlap? That's borderline sociopathic simplification.

strassenwo!f · 04-06-2019 2:47pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The ratios are meaningless though — you're just (I'm not entirely clear on this because your posts are rambling streams of consciousness but...) comparing distances between lines? Is that it? That's the only metric you're going to use to compare whether these things can feasibly overlap? That's borderline sociopathic simplification.

Yes, I think that's the main measure I would use.

A Drumcondra route was fine for An Bord Pleanala when it gave the railway order for the metronorth project, and the opening of the northside part of the LUAS Green line was subsequent to that order.

Now, of course, the station I'd envisage at Drumcondra would be a bit more complicated than the presented to ABP, but still not anything which is ever likely to ever crop up on any 'impossible emgineering' program or some such.

That would then give a nice balance, across the north city within all residents within 500 metres or so, of a rail (Metro, LUAS or DART) line. Building it at Whtworth still leaves large chunks of the north city around 2 km from an accessible rail line.

How you can call my suggestion 'sociopathic' is beyond me.

CatInABox · 04-06-2019 3:31pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

If the poster CatinABox is correct, in his earlier post, that it will take 80-90 years for a second metro line to be built in Dublin, then the ratios shown above would be a very inefficient way for Dubliners to be picked up by rail in the meantime.

Just to clarify Strassenwolf, I was referring solely to a speculative Luas line north of Broombridge.

Any Luas line going out there isn't going to be:

A) Built for at least a decade

Upgraded to Metro for decades further.

There may be a second Metro line built in that time, but it sure as hell won't be serving that direction.

strassenwo!f · 04-06-2019 6:47pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Just to clarify Strassenwolf, I was referring solely to a speculative Luas line north of Broombridge.

Any Luas line going out there isn't going to be:

A) Built for at least a decade
Upgraded to Metro for decades further.

There may be a second Metro line built in that time, but it sure as hell won't be serving that direction.

A metro sure as hell won't be serving that direction? But why not?

With the recent reopening of the cutting between Broadstone and the Royal Canal, half of a metro between Finglas and the city has already been built.

MJohnston · 04-06-2019 10:42pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

A metro sure as hell won't be serving that direction? But why not?

With the recent reopening of the cutting between Broadstone and the Royal Canal, half of a metro between Finglas and the city has already been built.

They said *the next* Metro line won't be serving that direction.

Alvin Holler · 04-06-2019 10:46pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

That would then give a nice balance, across the north city within all residents within 500 metres or so, of a rail (Metro, LUAS or DART) line. Building it at Whtworth still leaves large chunks of the north city around 2 km from an accessible rail line.

I've read this a couple of times but how does this make any sense?

If you build the Metrolink interchange at drumcondra then nobody will be closer to a rail line as it is already a station.

Building a new station has to mean some people will be closer.

strassenwo!f · 04-06-2019 11:42pm

Alvin Holler wrote: »

I've read this a couple of times but how does this make any sense?

If you build the Metrolink interchange at drumcondra then nobody will be closer to a rail line as it is already a station.

It is indeed. But it isn't a station which directly serves key areas in the city like O'Connell Street and St. Stephen's Green.

The LUAS Green line directly serves those areas already, and the logic of building a metro line almost on top of that service has thus far escaped me.

Alvin Holler wrote: »

Building a new station has to mean some people will be closer.

I've no problem with a station being built at the Des Kelly site, for interchange between Maynooth/Dunboyne trains and PPT trains. That make a lot of sense.

What doesn't seem sensible is to add the metro into that mix, at that location, as it seems to create a considerable overlap with nearby LUAS services to areas which are not directly served by Maynooth/Dunboyne/PPT trains, like O'Connell Street and St. Stephen's Green.

MJohnston · 05-06-2019 10:10am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It is indeed. But it isn't a station which directly serves key areas in the city like O'Connell Street and St. Stephen's Green.

The LUAS Green line directly serves those areas already, and the logic of building a metro line almost on top of that service has thus far escaped me.

How many times will you go over this same point and be given the same answer before you understand?

There are precisely THREE planned Metro stations that will overlap with the Green Line. Those are O'Connell Street, St Stephen's Green (barely), and Charlemont.

When planning transport stops, planners have to take into account a number of factors, but one of the biggest is that on average, people tolerate about a 1km walk to a stop for a rapid service, and about 400m walk to a bus stop. After those points, usage drops off significantly. Luas probably lies somewhere in between, but let's assume people are willing to walk about 1km to a Luas stop.

These figures allow you to calculate coverage areas for Luas and Metro stops. Another important concept in transport planning is having a balance between building for high usage (which means stops are further apart, the service is faster, and people want to use it more) and building for coverage (which means there's more overlap between coverage areas). Rarely, if ever, do you leave gaps between coverage areas, because that's bad planning.

With me so far?

So, let's look at some of the other stops where the Green Line and the Metro are close but not at the exact same spot:

Mater Metro and Broadstone Luas - approximately 700m walking distance, meaning a medium overlap (this overlap calculation is far from precise because lack of permeability in Irish city design means the actual overlap area will be much lower than that suggested by the shortest walking distance between two points).

Cross Guns Metro and Cabra Luas - approximately 1km walking distance, small coverage overlap.

Tara Metro to Westmoreland/Trinity Luas - approx 450m walking distance, a good amount of coverage overlap, but this is in the dense city centre, where coverage overlaps are useful.

So, there we have it. The Cross Guns/Glasnevin stop that you're worried about will have a minimal-to-no coverage overlap in transport planning terms with the Green Line.

With a bit of extra pedestrian bridging and access work, hopefully they'll be able to pull Cross Guns Metro and Cabra Luas closer to a 850m spacing, to allow for a little bit of interchanging, and a desirable coverage overlap.

In short: your argument that having a Metro station at Cross Guns is too much of an overlap with Cabra Luas is nonsense.

Last Stop · 05-06-2019 10:29pm

MJohnston wrote: »

How many times will you go over this same point and be given the same answer before you understand?

There are precisely THREE planned Metro stations that will overlap with the Green Line. Those are O'Connell Street, St Stephen's Green (barely), and Charlemont.

When planning transport stops, planners have to take into account a number of factors, but one of the biggest is that on average, people tolerate about a 1km walk to a stop for a rapid service, and about 400m walk to a bus stop. After those points, usage drops off significantly. Luas probably lies somewhere in between, but let's assume people are willing to walk about 1km to a Luas stop.

These figures allow you to calculate coverage areas for Luas and Metro stops. Another important concept in transport planning is having a balance between building for high usage (which means stops are further apart, the service is faster, and people want to use it more) and building for coverage (which means there's more overlap between coverage areas). Rarely, if ever, do you leave gaps between coverage areas, because that's bad planning.

With me so far?

So, let's look at some of the other stops where the Green Line and the Metro are close but not at the exact same spot:

Mater Metro and Broadstone Luas - approximately 700m walking distance, meaning a 30% coverage overlap (this figure is far from precise because lack of permeability in Irish city design means the actual overlap area will be much lower than that suggested by the shortest walking distance between two points).

Cross Guns Metro and Cabra Luas - approximately 1km walking distance, minimal coverage overlap.

Tara Metro to Westmoreland/Trinity Luas - approx 450m walking distance, a good amount of coverage overlap, but this is in the dense city centre, where coverage overlaps are useful.

So, there we have it. The Cross Guns/Glasnevin stop that you're worried about will have a minimal-to-no coverage overlap in transport planning terms with the Green Line.

With a bit of extra pedestrian bridging and access work, hopefully they'll be able to pull Cross Guns Metro and Cabra Luas closer to a 850m spacing, to allow for a little bit of interchanging, and a desirable coverage overlap.

In short: your argument that having a Metro station at Cross Guns is too much of an overlap with Cabra Luas is nonsense.

While I agree that Cross Guns is a better Metro Station Location for a number of reasons, I can’t help but point out your assessment of the walking distances is incorrect. A distance of 1km between stops means that there is actually a 50% overlap as people in the middle are 500m away from each stop (ideally this would be 1km each way)
However Cross Guns is a better location because:
- The platforms will be beside each other making it easier for passengers to understand which platform to use.
- There is not enough space at Drumcondra to provide platforms on the Docklands line due to Whitworth road to the north and the canal to the south. At Cross Guns, the line moves away from the canal slightly so you can provide platforms there.
- Drumcondra station is incredibly constrained as it without turning it into a major interchange
- Cross over with Luas isn’t that much of a factor at this location as the lines serve different areas and are merely converging on the city centre.

Last Stop · 05-06-2019 10:36pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, I think that's the main measure I would use.

A Drumcondra route was fine for An Bord Pleanala when it gave the railway order for the metronorth project, and the opening of the northside part of the LUAS Green line was subsequent to that order.

Now, of course, the station I'd envisage at Drumcondra would be a bit more complicated than the presented to ABP, but still not anything which is ever likely to ever crop up on any 'impossible emgineering' program or some such.

That would then give a nice balance, across the north city within all residents within 500 metres or so, of a rail (Metro, LUAS or DART) line. Building it at Whtworth still leaves large chunks of the north city around 2 km from an accessible rail line.

How you can call my suggestion 'sociopathic' is beyond me.

What areas of the North city would be 2km from an “accessible” rail line?
FWIW Drumcondra to Mate Metro is 1km

MJohnston · 06-06-2019 12:00am

Last Stop wrote: »

While I agree that Cross Guns is a better Metro Station Location for a number of reasons, I can’t help but point out your assessment of the walking distances is incorrect. A distance of 1km between stops means that there is actually a 50% overlap as people in the middle are 500m away from each stop (ideally this would be 1km each way)

D'oh, you're right, and I've updated the post so as not to waylay our erstwhile crayon holder.

I would disagree with what you say about "ideally this would be 1km each way" as that doesn't really seem to hold true in transport planning, where a bit of overlap is generally preferred. Partly I think this is because if you think of the walking radius as a perfect circle (which it never will be), if you placed stops to provide no coverage overlap, then you'd end up with large areas of prime land that are right beside a transport line, yet have no good access to it, which is a waste. Whereas if you introduce some coverage overlap, you're covering more of that area close to the line, like this:

https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2013488afd894970c-500wi

(from this interesting article)

I'd say this is doubly true in cities like Dublin, where planning restrictions along rail/tram lines are much looser than in other parts of the city. So you've got a really dense population that grows up around them.

That all said, the main point, which I didn't really mention in my last post, is this—Cross Guns would be an interchange stop, not a parallel stop, and at interchanges overlap is desirable.

strassen keeps claiming that the Broombridge Green Line and the Metro would be parallel routes, but this is not borne out via the data I've mentioned.

strassenwo!f · 06-06-2019 9:50pm

Last Stop wrote: »

What areas of the North city would be 2km from an “accessible” rail line?
FWIW Drumcondra to Mate Metro is 1km

Yes, I'm afraid that was a ghastly mistake of mine, and I apologise to the board.

It was based on my earlier statement, in post 985, that the ratios of "Cabra LUAS stop: Des Kelly site: DART line at Newcomen Bridge = 0.5 km:2.4 km, for lines travelling broadly north-south into the city. I rephrased this, in post 993, as a ratio of 1:4.8, which was how I stupidly came up with the '2 km' figure.

I am reluctant to quote the recent posts of the poster MJohnston, because of the slurs on me contained therein, but I would seriously question his contention that Dublin should make efforts to bring the LUAS Green line and the proposed metro even closer together, to facilitate interchange between them.

Who is going to want to interchange between these services in or around the Phibsboro/Cabra area, given that in a southbound direction they both serve the same key areas of the city, like O'Connell Street and St. Stephen's Green, and in a northbound direction the LUAS service currently terminates at Broombridge?

I think my earlier main point remains valid:

strassenwo!f wrote:

Nobody would claim that either Phibsboro or Drumcondra are badly served, in an overall Dublin context, by public transport. And I can't see that a change to a metro route through Drumcondra (rather than the Des Kelly site) would make any difference to passengers who are already on the network and wish to interchange between the metro and overground rail.

The key point I am making is that it seems to be an inefficient route for getting people onto the network, given the overlap the currently proposed metrolink line would have with the LUAS catchment in Phibsboro and the lack of a direct rail connection between Drumcondra and key areas like O'Connell Street and St. Stephen's Green.

The proposed arrangement of LUAS and metrolink in the Phibsboro/Cabra area would yield a situation where the following coverage would apply (walking distances given):

Doyle's Corner (pretty much the acknowledged centre of the Phibsboro area) to Phibsboro LUAS stop = ca. 450 m;
Doyle's Corner to Cross Guns metro station = ca. 450 m;
Doyle's Corner to proposed Mater station = ca. 530 m;
Doyle's Corner to Cabra LUAS stop = ca. 800 m; and
Doyle's Corner to two DART/Arrow lines = ca. 450 m.

Not overkill?

Contrast this with the proposed situation in Drumcondra, where people around the Drumcondra Road/Richmond Road junction, or the Drumcondra Road/Clonliffe Road junction (the approximate location of the metronorth Drumcondra station), and further east, would seem to be, in best case scenarios, around a minimun of 900 metres from a metro or LUAS line which directly serves the key city areas.

jd · 06-06-2019 10:52pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Contrast this with the proposed situation in Drumcondra, where people around the Drumcondra Road/Richmond Road junction, or the Drumcondra Road/Clonliffe Road junction (the approximate location of the metronorth Drumcondra station), and further east, would seem to be, in best case scenarios, around a minimun of 900 metres from a metro or LUAS line which directly serves the key city areas.

They'll have a Dart Station.

strassenwo!f · 06-06-2019 11:25pm

jd wrote: »

They'll have a Dart Station.

I understand Phibsboro will as well.

MJohnston · 07-06-2019 11:56am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I am reluctant to quote the recent posts of the poster MJohnston, because of the slurs on me contained therein, but I would seriously question his contention that Dublin should make efforts to bring the LUAS Green line and the proposed metro even closer together, to facilitate interchange between them.

Ain't no slurs in those posts, but feel free to report them to a mod if you feel truly aggrieved. You should take a look at the posts though, ignoring them just suggests to everyone that you don't want a proper debate, just to soapbox.

Regardless, I didn't propose the proximity of the CrossGuns Metro and Luas Cabra stops should change, merely that access should be improved to each along the Royal Canal.

This should be an objective even if there wasn't going to be a Cross Guns station, as access is currently terrible — parts of Glasnevin are only 500m from Cabra Luas, yet have to walk 2km or so to actually access it!

MJohnston · 07-06-2019 12:22pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The proposed arrangement of LUAS and metrolink in the Phibsboro/Cabra area would yield a situation where the following coverage would apply (walking distances given):

Doyle's Corner (pretty much the acknowledged centre of the Phibsboro area) to Phibsboro LUAS stop = ca. 450 m;
Doyle's Corner to Cross Guns metro station = ca. 450 m;
Doyle's Corner to proposed Mater station = ca. 530 m;
Doyle's Corner to Cabra LUAS stop = ca. 800 m; and
Doyle's Corner to two DART/Arrow lines = ca. 450 m.

Not overkill?

As I pointed out, transport planners use a stop-spacing strategy, not some arbitrary notion of where the 'centre' of some place is, because there are many types of 'centre'.

Doyle's Corner might the geographic centre of Phibsboro, but it's far from the highest population density part of the area. The highest population density around these parts would be at Cross Guns along the canal, close to Phibsboro Luas stop (and this density is set to drastically increase due to an infill development), and then along NCR down towards Dorset Street.

It's absolutely not a coincidence that these areas are where there are Luas stops, or planned Metro stops.

Think to the future too. Unless St Patricks College decide to give up some of their lands, the area around Drumcondra station has largely reached peak density. Cross Guns, meanwhile, there's a big 300 apartment development approved for the former Smurfit Printworks site, and huge infill potential at the Old Mill site (and eventually possibly the snooker club and the spot where Des Kelly Carpets currently resides). Just down the road from Cabra Luas stop there's going to be a huge new 420 home development on Carnlough Road. Oh yeah, and there's the Phibsboro shopping centre redevelopment, which will include a lot of residential units (if it ever gets built).

bk · 07-06-2019 2:51pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Think to the future too. Unless St Patricks College decide to give up some of their lands, the area around Drumcondra station has largely reached peak density. Cross Guns, meanwhile, there's a big 300 apartment development approved for the former Smurfit Printworks site, and huge infill potential at the Old Mill site (and eventually possibly the snooker club and the spot where Des Kelly Carpets currently resides). Just down the road from Cabra Luas stop there's going to be a huge new 420 home development on Carnlough Road. Oh yeah, and there's the Phibsboro shopping centre redevelopment, which will include a lot of residential units (if it ever gets built).

Pity we can't get the Archbishop to give up his palace, you could fit thousands of apartments in those grounds.

What a waste of space so near the city. It should either be homes or a park open to the public, grhh....

BTW thousands of new homes have been going in all along Grace Park Road and not as much as a single bus route on that road!!

It would definitely make sense for a Metro stop to go in somewhere around there in the distant future if we get a second SW to NE Metro.

Qrt · 07-06-2019 3:01pm

Slightly off-topic but I do believe they should build a station at the eastern end of Whitworth Road too. I doubt the DART frequency of the Maynooth line will be high enough for people to easily change at Glasnevin/Crossguns (I really hope they change the name), so people travelling from the Heuston Mainline towards Drumcondra would have a much easier time. Two separate stations with a modest walk between has a Hammersmith vibe to it.

MJohnston · 07-06-2019 3:03pm

bk wrote: »

Pity we can't get the Archbishop to give up his palace, you could fit thousands of apartments in those grounds.

What a waste of space so near the city. It should either be homes or a park open to the public, grhh....

I'd definitely have it as an open public space, but there's definitely some space along the Tolka that could be carved off for development. Never going to happen though!

BTW thousands of new homes have been going in all along Grace Park Road and not as much as a single bus route on that road!!

It would definitely make sense for a Metro stop to go in somewhere around there in the distant future if we get a second SW to NE Metro.

They should drill elevators down to the Port Tunnel, and turn that into a BRT

MJohnston · 07-06-2019 3:13pm

Qrt wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but I do believe they should build a station at the eastern end of Whitworth Road too. I doubt the DART frequency of the Maynooth line will be high enough for people to easily change at Glasnevin/Crossguns (I really hope they change the name), so people travelling from the Heuston Mainline towards Drumcondra would have a much easier time. Two separate stations with a modest walk between has a Hammersmith vibe to it.

I'm not sure I understand your point about frequency? Why would changing from Heuston Line at Drumcondra be any easier than Heuston Line at Cross Guns?

Last Stop · 07-06-2019 3:32pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I understand Phibsboro will as well.

So your point regarding distances becomes irrelevant? No area will be 2km from public transport and Cross Guns will result in an easier to build with all Irish Rail platforms located together so is better option.

QED. Debate closed

Qrt · 07-06-2019 3:40pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your point about frequency? Why would changing from Heuston Line at Drumcondra be any easier than Heuston Line at Cross Guns?

I mean if you’re alighting in Drumcondra, from what I understand, Heuston trains will go straight from Crossguns to Docklands/Connolly? Having a station at the eastern end of Whitworth Road would negate the need to change at Crossguns – a move which might put some people off.

MJohnston · 07-06-2019 4:36pm

Qrt wrote: »

I mean if you’re alighting in Drumcondra, from what I understand, Heuston trains will go straight from Crossguns to Docklands/Connolly? Having a station at the eastern end of Whitworth Road would negate the need to change at Crossguns – a move which might put some people off.

Ah I see. It's probably not a compelling enough reason to do both Cross Guns and Whitworth both though. I'd say most people will be content either with the single change, or just walking down from Cross Guns.

Qrt · 07-06-2019 4:41pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Ah I see. It's probably not a compelling enough reason to do both Cross Guns and Whitworth both though. I'd say most people will be content either with the single change, or just walking down from Cross Guns.

That’s true, I’m a Southsider so it’s all a bit of a blur to me.

not1but4 · 08-06-2019 10:53am

bk wrote: »

Pity we can't get the Archbishop to give up his palace, you could fit thousands of apartments in those grounds.

What a waste of space so near the city. It should either be homes or a park open to the public, grhh....

Did you know something the rest of us didn't?

Archdiocese and GAA selling land in Drumcondra for €100m
Dublin site of 19 acres could include 1,200 apartments
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/archdiocese-and-gaa-selling-land-in-drumcondra-for-100m-1.3918684

strassenwo!f · 08-06-2019 4:21pm

not1but4 wrote: »

Did you know something the rest of us didn't?

Or maybe the Archbishop has been reading the thread?

L1011 · 08-06-2019 11:41pm

That's the old seminary not the palace. Decent chunk of the site but not all at all

Amirani · 13-06-2019 11:29am

L1011 wrote: »

That's the old seminary not the palace. Decent chunk of the site but not all at all

Would you be able to highlight on a map exactly which bit the 19 acres proposed refers to? I've seen it mentioned many times with an overall view of the site, but haven't seen anyone show exactly which bit of the green space it is.

Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

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