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"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I think the blame can be laid at the feet of all three.
    George for his absolutely glacial writing pace, D&D for their extremely sub-par writing after the book material ran out, with a few exceptions thrown in there.

    Agreed on the blame.

    I do feel that from where GRRM left them D&D simply couldn’t have avoided some of the main gripes that are pointed to as ‘sub-par writing’. For example, if they were to finish the show in less than 15 seasons the pace had to be picked up a lot, switching focus more to plot progression had to become more of a focus, and given where the characters were left on the map and the journeys they needed to make the time to travel between places had to become looser.

    Again, that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have dealt with the above better or that they aren’t at fault for many other issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,400 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Fundamental to lore doesn’t mean the whole show has to hang on it, especially in a way that beats you over the head with it.

    At this point I’m not sure what would have satisfied you, aside from something like Jon being made king or some sort of massive push for that to happen. For me that reveal had plenty enough impact on show through how it influenced the decisions of everyone who found out about it.

    Since the early days of Lost I loved fan theories. Most people seem to enjoy coming up with and discussing them, but for an element it can really lead to toxicness, when certain fans either don’t get the answer to the question, don’t get an answer they like, or the answer doesn’t have the impact they want it to have. It doesn’t seem healthy.

    What would have satisfied me?

    Something coming of all the the shared glances between Jon and the NK.

    Something coming of the look of shock on Dany's face when Jon first reached out to touch Drogon (I think at the time)

    Something coming of the fact that Jon could actually ride a flipping dragon, named after his father, rather than Euron the crossbow master taking Rhaegal out for dramatic effect.

    Something being made of the fact that the show put a lot of effort into:
    a) revealing R+L=J. I think in season 6 they teased it in the first episode with the tower of joy flashback that bloodraven cut short, then did the full reveal later on. This was clearly momentous.

    b) the characters in the show finding out about R+L=J

    c) varys' letters that ultimately meant absolutely nothing.

    The show spent a huge amount of time building it up. It's not just a huge thing in my head because I want it to be a huge thing. They undeniably invested a lot in it as a major plotline. Then they just abandoned it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    Jesus Christ, Jon Snow's parentage kicked off the war that defined the Westeros in which the events of the show take place. The tension between his character/temperament and his lineage directly led to the capital city being destroyed, the entire, centuries long form of government being totally overhauled, and one of the show's heroes becoming its final villain. How the actual fcuk can you say "nothing came of it", it literally causes the beginning and end of the story.

    Destiny and free will, the corrupting force of the love of power are probably the two biggest themes of the show and he and Dany illustrate them in complementary ways which are inextricably linked to his parentage: she turned out to be willing to abandon all principle in the pursuit of power to which she felt divinely entitled because of her lineage, he would not abandon his principles and freely gives up the throne to which he is in fact more entitled than her.

    The only real "something came of it" I can think of would have been Jon ending up on the throne, which would have us actually back full circle to before Roberts rebellion. It would have been a sh1t, cliched ending and people would be pissing and moaning about that too.

    This is not a show that stuck the landing, to say the least but good golly it's hard to sift through the intelligent, legitimate criticisms in the face of this absolute sh1t storm of nonsense angry rants about bullsh1t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    What would have satisfied me?

    Something coming of all the the shared glances between Jon and the NK.

    Something coming of the look of shock on Dany's face when Jon first reached out to touch Drogon (I think at the time)

    Something coming of the fact that Jon could actually ride a flipping dragon, named after his father, rather than Euron the crossbow master taking Rhaegal out for dramatic effect.

    Something being made of the fact that the show put a lot of effort into:
    a) revealing R+L=J. I think in season 6 they teased it in the first episode with the tower of joy flashback that bloodraven cut short, then did the full reveal later on. This was clearly momentous.

    b) the characters in the show finding out about R+L=J

    c) varys' letters that ultimately meant absolutely nothing.

    The show spent a huge amount of time building it up. It's not just a huge thing in my head because I want it to be a huge thing. They undeniably invested a lot in it as a major plotline. Then they just abandoned it.

    All you are proving with that post is that you seem to have no idea of what you actually wanted, just that you weren't happy (or maybe more accurate to say having a borderline mental breakdown) about what they gave you.

    You're perfectly entitled to vent away, but I clearly saw that the reveal had a huge impact on the narrative and didn't need nor want everything to be spoon fed to me or for it to take over the whole ending of the show in a way that beats us over the head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,643 ✭✭✭storker


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    but for an element it can really lead to toxicness, when certain fans either don’t get the answer to the question, don’t get an answer they like, or the answer doesn’t have the impact they want it to have. It doesn’t seem healthy.

    A bit like life. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    What would have satisfied me?

    Something coming of all the the shared glances between Jon and the NK.

    Something coming of the look of shock on Dany's face when Jon first reached out to touch Drogon (I think at the time)

    Something coming of the fact that Jon could actually ride a flipping dragon, named after his father, rather than Euron the crossbow master taking Rhaegal out for dramatic effect.

    Something being made of the fact that the show put a lot of effort into:
    a) revealing R+L=J. I think in season 6 they teased it in the first episode with the tower of joy flashback that bloodraven cut short, then did the full reveal later on. This was clearly momentous.

    b) the characters in the show finding out about R+L=J

    c) varys' letters that ultimately meant absolutely nothing.

    The show spent a huge amount of time building it up. It's not just a huge thing in my head because I want it to be a huge thing. They undeniably invested a lot in it as a major plotline. Then they just abandoned it.

    Exactly none of it mattered...

    Only thing that has changed that Bran is King some bloody how.

    S1 Starks in Winterfell
    S8 Ditto

    S1 Wildlings North of the Wall
    S8 Ditto

    S1 Nights Watch on the Wall
    S8 Ditto (Dunno why)

    S1 Lannisters in Casterly Rock
    S8 Ditto

    S1 Baratheon in Dragon Stone
    S8 Ditto

    S1 Tullys in Riverrun
    S8 Ditto

    Unsullied Same, Dothraki became the Army of the Dead of LotR, I can go on with more examples .

    They stole the plot of Bran ruling from the Simpsons episode where the smart people take over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    This is not a show that stuck the landing, to say the least but good golly it's hard to sift through the intelligent, legitimate criticisms in the face of this absolute sh1t storm of nonsense angry rants about bullsh1t.

    Bit strong. I would say a huge amount of effort the show put into teasing out his lineage is completely disporportionate to what they effectively managed to achieve with it in the end.

    I'm not saying it had no relevance to the narrative, but they did feck-all with it in the grander scheme of things, presumably thanks to their ridiculous self-imposed time constraints that left zero room for actual meaningful character/plot development in favor of huge CGI spectacles.

    Compounded by the fact that despite everything, including Vary's letter, it ultimately just frustratingly, and incredibly lazily, gets swept under the rug in that utter mess that was the second half of the finale.

    It's nothing to do with the fact that Jon didn't become King, anyone who takes that away from the complaint is missing the point. It's about the lazy, bare-bones scripting of this season which just does the absolute minimum needed to get characters from plot point to plot point.

    Like pretty much everything in the season, it was just a victim of the headlong rush to the finish line and wrap it all up and enormous potential was just let circle and disappear down the drain.

    I would agree overall with the opinion that they did largely (not saying entirely) abandon the plotline, certainly personally wouldn't call it "a nonsense angry rant".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    His parentage directly leads to the system of ruling a continent being radically changed after centuries of consistency. His parentage directly leads to the other presumed hero of the story showing her true colours and out murdering every other villain in the series put together. His parentage it turns out, sparked the war that led to literally every event in the show taking place. It could not be more important to the story. It crystallises Jon's character, shows us exactly how incorruptible and unmaterialistic he is. It illustrates a theme that the books and the shows have consistently hammered away at, as he said to Tyrion " do you think our house words are written on our bodies when we're born?" and he shows no, they're not. Just like Tyrion, Theon, Arya, Sam. The argument that it was abandoned just doesn't hold up, it drives the action of the last three episodes totally and contains so much of the spirit and essence of the series. My tone was a bit strong there, you're right, but I'd argue not any stronger than that poster's own contributions.

    Varys burnt the letter, there's a pretty limited degree to which you can progress the story of burnt paper. He burnt it and removed his rings because he is a thorough, conscientious person calmly facing his death, not panicking. It was just a little character beat, and very in character. The kind of thing that people claim to miss from the show.

    Look there is so much to hate this season and last. Though they were both good scenes I felt that given the cutaways from Tyrion and Bran's conversation, Jon and his sisters, just the overall rushedness, that a two minute scene of Brienne writing followed by a good 90 seconds of Tyrion moving chairs around was tantamount to trolling! But the reality is that they were always going to piss of hundreds of thousands of people and people really seem to just be ranting about whatever their pet theory is or the first thing they think of.

    "Characters are acting very inconsistently" yep.

    "People are constantly explicitly put in certain death situations and constantly survive them" sure.

    "Armies change size and ability level based on the plot" that is annoying, yes.

    "Fcuking Euron oh my gaaaaawd" absolutely.

    "You know the driving force of the entire narrative? The thing that drives the dragon queen over the edge? Leads to genocide? Leads to the iron throne being destroyed and its rightful heir rejecting its power and heading off to determine his own destiny? I don't think they developed that enough" ehh no,learn how to watch tv better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,400 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Foxtrol wrote: »

    You're perfectly entitled to vent away, but I clearly saw that the reveal had a huge impact on the narrative and didn't need nor want everything to be spoon fed to me or for it to take over the whole ending of the show in a way that beats us over the head.

    Thanks for this bit, I completely forgot that I'm a complete and utter moron and am incapable of digesting a story unless it is procedurally and narratively simplistic enough for a five year old to follow.

    People are of course entitled to their opinions, but trying to explain away bad writing, narrative inconsistency and breakdowns of internal logic as somehow being something subtle that only a few of us can truly comprehend is laughably misguided, arrogant and wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,400 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    ehh no,learn how to watch tv better.

    The absolute state of this ffs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    The absolute state of this ffs.

    This from the person who completely missed the importance of Jons parentage :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,933 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    S1 Baratheon in Dragon Stone
    S8 Ditto


    Gendry is in Storms End, not Dragonstone :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭2ndcoming



    S1 Lannisters in Casterly Rock
    S8 Ditto

    Are there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    The absolute state of this ffs.

    The state of saying of the element of the plot which directly or indirectly caused every single thing we saw on this show and totally shaped the ending "nothing came of it".

    And I'm not saying it was some subtlety of writing that only smart viewers could discern. Nobody stfu about his lineage for the last three episodes, it could not have been less subtle unless we got another scene like where Tyrion helpfully explicitly explains Danaerys' arc to everyone.

    Apart from "flargle blargle something DIFFERENT it's so STUPID raaaargh!" what exactly did you want emphasised more or differently about the detail that was the subject of every second sentence out of everyone's mouth over three hours of television?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    2ndcoming wrote: »
    Are there?

    Tyrion


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    ....... wrote: »
    This from the person who completely missed the importance of Jons parentage :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    The single purpose for Jon's parentage was to be a catalyst for Danny's turn. It bore no other importance to the show.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Thanks for this bit, I completely forgot that I'm a complete and utter moron and am incapable of digesting a story unless it is procedurally and narratively simplistic enough for a five year old to follow.

    People are of course entitled to their opinions, but trying to explain away bad writing, narrative inconsistency and breakdowns of internal logic as somehow being something subtle that only a few of us can truly comprehend is laughably misguided, arrogant and wrong.

    My posts to you had nothing to do with the bolded and you're now trying to straw man, I commented on your complete breakdown that Jon's lineage meant 'nothing, absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things'.

    If you still truly believe that statement, especially after electro~bitch has eloquently detailed why that just isnt the case, then it is hard to argue with your self description in your first paragraph.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    The single purpose for Jon's parentage was to be a catalyst for Danny's turn. It bore no other importance to the show.

    Which in itself is the single most important event that happened in the show and resulted in a paradigm shift for EVERYONE in Westeros, then end of the 7 Kingdoms, the end of Succession Monarchy, the North doing a Brexit and the end of the Targaryens finally.

    But hey, if people want to believe that it didnt matter that Jon was a Targaryen, then let them at it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    The single purpose for Jon's parentage was to be a catalyst for Danny's turn. It bore no other importance to the show.

    Yes aside from the final, biggest twist in the show's run it bore no other narrative importance to the show, apart from kicking off Robert's Rebellion, retrospectively changing the whole meaning of that conflict and of Ned Stark's character. But nowt apart from that :pac:

    Thematically it's the most significant plot point of them all.

    I can understand people being disappointed that all the Prince who was promised etc prophecy stuff ending up dropped but the show's been veering that way for ages, suddenly reintroducing it in the last episode or two would have been ridiculous.

    I can kiiiind of get disappointment at his identity not having anything to do with the Night King despite the fact that as commanders of opposing forces they made eye contact.

    But this is not A Song Of Ice and Fire, it's Game of Thrones. Slight hint about the different focuses of two different texts right there like.

    And while I can can understand the disappointment I can't understand the flapping frothing rage about it. It had a different significance than a portion of the book reading audience wanted, which doesn't mean it had no significance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    On a lighter note on this episode, I'm not always the biggest fan of D&D's brand of levity (iirc they were responsible for the whole "Pod's good at riding and that's hilarious!" thing) but Bronn's "longMAYhereign" is still making me giggle.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Depends. We start the show with him being defined by being a bastard. It consumes him. To the point that he wont have sex with Ros because he doesnt want her to have a bastard.

    He starts Season 1 with a deep dislike of his identity and thinks going to the wall is the best he can do for himself. Honourable even without an honourable name.

    If he was anyone elses kid this might be different because he wouldnt be a bastard. But if he was still a bastard in Ned Starks care with different parents then his story would probably be the same up to the point that he found out who he was. But if he found out that (for example) the Blackfish was his father and Lyanna Stark his mother then he would have been no threat to Dany and her story would have changed. Plus he wouldnt have been a dragon rider (presumably) in the Night King battle.

    His parentage also dictated why Ned behaved the way he did. He lied to his wife for their whole marriage to hide who Jons parents were. And he put a question mark over his own honour because even the honourable Ned Stark could go off with a bed wench it seemed.

    There is also a nice parallel with Jon and Aemon. Both are Targaryens who took the black and rejected the throne.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Apart from Ned not having to lie to everyone about it, him probably not going to the wall and ending up Lord commander, him probably getting killed by a dragon the second he touched it and if not him probably marrying and ruling alongside Danaerys?

    Not much no.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Not much no.

    Although it was so rushed in S8 I quite liked that Jon was having a bastard identity crisis in season 1, then an heir to the iron throne identity crisis in season 8.

    It was like : Oh noooo, why do I have to be a bastard!!
    followed by : Oh noooo, why do I have to be a King!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,368 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Okay I'll ask you this, if Jon's parents were anybody else would his story have changed?

    Definitely. The whole reason Ned kept his identity a secret was to protect him from Robert Baratheon. If he wasn't Rheagar and Lyanna's son then Ned would have no need to keep it a secret and Jon wouldn't have been a bastard. His whole story arc was built on him being a bastard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    Definitely. The whole reason Ned kept his identity a secret was to protect him from Robert Baratheon. If he wasn't Rheagar and Lyanna's son then Ned would have no need to keep it a secret and Jon wouldn't have been a bastard. His whole story arc was built on him being a bastard.

    It literally defined him.

    Thats why the reveal was so huge, even before that drove other events.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    I think the argument is probably more framed as if he truly was a bastard son of Neds.

    Assuming he still went to the wall - which is still a credible development - the storyline doesn't change much at all. Daenerys ultimately came to resent that he had the love of the common people in the lands in which she had always imagined herself to be the great liberator, while she was viewed with suspicion and mistrust despite showing a willingness to sacrific everything to their cause.

    Him being a Targaryen obviously didn't help matters, but given what they ultimately made of, and how they used, his lineage, it would be extremely easy to have the exact same outcome, if that plot element was eliminated entirely, simply by placing a little more emphasis on her increasing hostility to his perceived status as undisputed King of the North, on both sides of the wall....as well as widespread sympathy among houses further south.

    A few individual scenes would need re-working, but the fundemental story over the course of the show could still work perfectly fine with Jon Snow never being anything other than Jon Snow, considering how it turned out. It had relevance to the plot, but not really any particularly significant amount of bearing, as many probably expected with the heavy build-up to the revelation that he was, in fact, the rightful heir to the throne.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Thundering Whim


    I think without him being a Targaryen Danaerys would have seen him and his sway over the Northerners as a way to consolidate her power rather than a threat to it. Even knowing he was, her solution, the only thing she ever begged for was for him to keep it total secret and rule with her. Now that probably wouldn't have lasted (she cray) but she could clearly see his prowess and popularity since she arrived last season, but it was only when he revealed his identity that her instinctive unfiltered reaction was "You have a better claim to the throne!"

    And again, killed by a dragon a bunch of times.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Ah yeah, I completely agree with that aspect as the show played out, but I think if Jon Snow was only ever Jon Snow, they could exploit that angle easily enough to entirely supplant the Targaryen side of it with very little change to the plot we did get.

    Jon still pledging his undying allegiance, but Daenerys increasingly incensed by the knowledge that the north, and even beyond, will only ever follow Jon - even if it's under her banner, she's still the sort to demand a pledge of total allegiance rather than simple loyalty by proxy like most other rulers demand.

    Not to mention, agrieved by the lukewarm to indifferent reception at best, thinly-veiled hostility at worst, from the house lords themselves in the north and some stretching down south.

    Would easily tie into her tendency towards paranoia, combined with a possible increasing detachment from reality/slow descent that begins with increasingly irrational behavior and teeters into actual madness, not at all difficult for her to see imaginary coups, plots against her, where none existed, and so on, no matter how much Jon pledged his undying fealty or devotion to her.

    Still culminating in the decision to rule by abject fear rather than win the hearts and minds of Westeros. Really, it's not laid out a huge amount different in the actual show, but the fact that Jon is Targaryen is the real tipping point for sure.... but it could be easily reframed if that weren't the case.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Ah yeah, I completely agree with that aspect as the show played out, but I think if Jon Snow was only ever Jon Snow, they could exploit that angle easily enough to entirely supplant the Targaryen side of it with very little change to the plot we did get.

    Jon still pledging his undying allegiance, but Daenerys increasingly incensed by the knowledge that the north, and even beyond, will only ever follow Jon - even if it's under her banner, she's still the sort to demand a pledge of total allegiance rather than simple loyalty by proxy like most other rulers demand.

    Not to mention, agrieved by the lukewarm to indifferent reception at best, thinly-veiled hostility at worst, from the house lords themselves in the north and some stretching down south.

    Would easily tie into her tendency towards paranoia, combined with a possible increasing detachment from reality/slow descent that begins with increasingly irrational behavior and teeters into actual madness, not at all difficult for her to see imaginary coups, plots against her, where none existed, and so on, no matter how much Jon pledged his undying fealty or devotion to her.

    Still culminating in the decision to rule by abject fear rather than win the hearts and minds of Westeros. Really, it's not laid out a huge amount different in the actual show, but the fact that Jon is Targaryen is the real tipping point for sure.... but it could be easily reframed if that weren't the case.

    There is also the love aspect between Jon and Dany that would be hard to write out of it without their family connection. Aside from betraying her through the secret, he also turned down her romantic advances once he found out she was his aunt. It is not easy to drop in another issue where he keeps the same feelings for her, but they can’t be with each other. Jon turning her down impacts her mental state and cuts off the obvious marriage option for them, that would have resolved a lot of her issues.


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