Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Directly Elected Mayor

245

Comments

  • #32
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    The CEO role would still exist, but it would probably need to have a similar balance between what you'd see in a Government Department between a Secretary General and a Minister, and the CEO role would have to lose some of the current powers that comes with it.

    That in itself doesn't have to be a bad thing, but Ministers come in with political agendas, and the Secretary General has to try and remain impartial and work with whatever and whoever comes in to the political seat.

    I think this balance of power has been very publicly demonstrated this week, where the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, who is an economist of high esteem, strongly disagrees with something on grounds of cost and arguable economic benefit, but is overruled by the Minister.

    Again - it's not a bad system in itself, but people should consider which outcome they'd prefer.

    In terms of national structures, this proposal is so rushed its not even being proposed for Dublin - it might be at a future date.

    In terms of national structures, I think anything which creates outliers, which Waterford, Limerick, Cork and Galway would be, needs to be carefully thought out and justified.


  • #33
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    hardybuck wrote: »
    In terms of national structures, I think anything which creates outliers, which Waterford, Limerick, Cork and Galway would be, needs to be carefully thought out and justified.

    That group of cities is the one we would feel we naturally belong to. If we were left out, there would be blue murder on here. I don't expect us to have the same structures or facilities as Dublin, but I sure as hell want to be kept in the same club as Cork and Limerick.


  • #34
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    fricatus wrote: »
    That group of cities is the one we would feel we naturally belong to. If we were left out, there would be blue murder on here. I don't expect us to have the same structures or facilities as Dublin, but I sure as hell want to be kept in the same club as Cork and Limerick.

    If that's the only reason, or one of the stronger ones for going with it, then I'm not sure if the ends justifies the means.

    I'm also not sure they would give it to the cities who voted for it and not the others.

    The wages for Office of the Mayor would cost close to €500k per year, not including pension allowances. Those costs would be met from the Council's resources.


  • #35
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    fricatus wrote: »
    That group of cities is the one we would feel we naturally belong to. If we were left out, there would be blue murder on here. I don't expect us to have the same structures or facilities as Dublin, but I sure as hell want to be kept in the same club as Cork and Limerick.

    Voting this through on the basis of FOMO (fear of missing out) is exactly why all three Cities need to reject this - the pitch for a DEM is a stunt to keep the regions "happy", thinking they've acquired some meaningful devolved powers when no such thing has happened. It's a con unless someone can show me why it will make a practical difference to our lives.


  • #36
    Road-Hog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭Road-Hog


    Definite no from me. See no advantage whatsoever.....we would risk getting a local ‘trump’ type populist elected with no clue about how local or national government works and depending on powers given (which is still not clear) could end up making some mad decisions......like or loathe the current CEO system but one thing for sure those who are ceos at moment have vast experience on how the system and funding etc works.....not a job for a rookie mayor


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    wagtail99
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭wagtail99


    The level of destain on here for the part of Waterford County outside the ring road is amazing. People complain about lack of support from other SE counties for regional facilities that should be provided and based in Waterford, but is it any wonder this happens, if you show distain even for other areas of your own county,.


  • #38
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    wagtail99 wrote: »
    The level of destain on here for the part of Waterford County outside the ring road is amazing. People complain about lack of support from other SE counties for regional facilities that should be provided and based in Waterford, but is it any wonder this happens, if you show distain even for other areas of your own county,.

    I don’t see how you’ve picked up an impression of disdain for the rest of the county.

    Some people have complained that a mayor should be mayor of a city rather than a county (by extension and to clarify, I think that Dungarvan for example should have been allowed to keep its town council, and by all means elect its own mayor, although that’s not on any ballot paper just yet). I think at the very least our having mayors for a whole county is odd by international standards.

    Others have complained that John Deasy doesn’t give two hoots about the city, which is true, and have expressed fears that any directly-elected mayor might not put the city first, which to me is the whole reason for the post in the first place. I think this is unlikely given the population balance.

    I don’t think any of that counts as disdain. Can you quote something specific?


  • #39
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I'm probably to blame with my Stetson hat post.


  • #40
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    I'm probably to blame with my Stetson hat post.

    OK, yeah, I missed that... fair enough that they've taken offence!

    But the substance of the post, about the city focus (surely what being a mayor is all about?) being diluted by covering a large rural area, is a fair point.


  • #41
    IspeakcozIcan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭IspeakcozIcan


    hardybuck wrote: »

    In terms of national structures, this proposal is so rushed its not even being proposed for Dublin - it might be at a future date.

    In terms of national structures, I think anything which creates outliers, which Waterford, Limerick, Cork and Galway would be, needs to be carefully thought out and justified.

    It's currently off the table for Dublin because Fingal County Councillors voted against it (under the influence of Phil Hogan). The three other Dublin authorities voted overwhelmingly in favour. There will now be a Citizens' Assembly held on the issue.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    IspeakcozIcan wrote: »
    It's currently off the table for Dublin because Fingal County Councillors voted against it (under the influence of Phil Hogan). The three other Dublin authorities voted overwhelmingly in favour. There will now be a Citizens' Assembly held on the issue.

    I can see how an authority member might be in favour because it'll mean a Minister for State salary is possibly available for one of them who might have very little chance of getting one otherwise, but thankfully the public will have an opportunity to debate and vote on it.


  • #43
    Gillman1998
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gillman1998


    I need to understand this a bit better but I gather that a directly elected member could pass budgets etc with a reduced number of councillors supporting. Not sure at like the sound of that.

    There is a good article in the Irish Times today which suggests that the whole scheme is smoke and mirrors on the part of the government to appear to decentralise without actually doing it.

    More research needed on my part, that’s for sure.


  • #44
    IspeakcozIcan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭IspeakcozIcan


    Patrick Freyne's article in the Irish Times today:
    Waterford needs to ‘stem the blood loss'

    Love his work generally so delighted to see him put the spotlight on Waterford. Such an insightful piece.

    Really think we should not let this opportunity to give Waterford an extra, powerful voice pass us by.


    I'm definitely voting yes and will be imploring everyone I meet to do the same.

    Also think there is a reason the government are not actively or enthusiastically campaigning for a Yes vote. It's not in their interests for this to pass, but it is in Waterford's interest.


  • #45
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭BBM77


    IspeakcozIcan wrote: »
    Patrick Freyne's article in the Irish Times today:
    Waterford needs to ‘stem the blood loss'

    Love his work generally so delighted to see him put the spotlight on Waterford. Such an insightful piece.

    Really think we should not let this opportunity to give Waterford an extra, powerful voice pass us by.


    I'm definitely voting yes and will be imploring everyone I meet to do the same.

    Also think there is a reason the government are not actively or enthusiastically campaigning for a Yes vote. It's not in their interests for this to pass, but it is in Waterford's interest.

    Where are people getting all this kind of thing from??

    If you look at the proposal being voted on

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guide_to_plebiscite_on_directly_elected_mayor_waterford_city_and_county.pdf

    there is not one mention of decentralising powers or the position having new powers.

    Here is another article that actually looks at directly elected mayors.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/plans-to-directly-elect-mayors-are-mere-window-dressing-1.3886682


  • #46
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Nice article for the exposure it gives the forgotten city.


  • #47
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    I read the handout that came though the letterbox and, to be honest, I am none the wiser. It mentions the new mayor and his two sidekicks taking over executive power from the Manager and the Manager will implement the policy. Its all a bit vague but one thing it specifically mentions is the new mayor will chair the 'policing committee'. Is this already in existence or is it something new? I would worry if we are heading the USA route of having all services funded locally. A huge number of US cities ar virtually bankrupt and regularly sack staff and remove services. Have a look at the documentary on Flint on netflix. Is that the plan?

    Another concern is that we are in an era of populism and fake news which is only going to get worse before it gets better. Is there anything to stop someone running on a platform of spending €100M on local authority housing and halving LPT, to be funded from increased business rates? It would all collapse under a mountain of business failures but we could be stuck with a dope for a mayor for five years. There is also a huge grey area as to what is central government's responsibility and what is the Mayor's eg the runway extension.

    I am probably an old cynic but I worry that this is Central Govt washing their hands in 'culchie' affairs. They will tut tut at the chaos caused by the yokels when we vote in a Jeremy Trump or a Donald Corbyn while at the same time continue to soak us with income, capital and VAT taxes to be spent in constituencies closer to their hearts or with marginal seats to be won.

    Without more information I will be voting no.


  • #48
    deisemum
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭deisemum


    There's an information evening on electing a Mayor in the Tower Hotel on Wednesday at 7.30pm.


  • #49
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Rob Cass playing the FOMO card on the media today trouble is I hear nothing in his words to back up the claim. It feels like hit and hope.


  • #50
    DLS_75
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭DLS_75


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Rob Cass playing the FOMO card on the media today trouble is I hear nothing in his words to back up the claim. It feels like hit and hope.


    How does he find the time for all the typing he does? I don’t think he knows the meaning of the word succinct.


  • #51
    Christy Browne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭Christy Browne


    I can see the whingers coming out already when Cork and Limerick have elected mayors making positive decisions for their city and Waterford is left behind once again. This is our chance to effectively have a permanent Minister for Waterford. Be mad not to take it.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    I'm still not made up mind, one hand thinking could be some populist idiot or else it could be a start of something good, a focal force for good, also, is it worth a try because what we have at the moment is not working out great for Waterford is it.


  • #53
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    I'm still not made up mind, one hand thinking could be some populist idiot or else it could be a start of something good, a focal force for good, also, is it worth a try because what we have at the moment is not working out great for Waterford is it. Be good to get along to info evening tomorrow


  • #54
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Rob Cass playing the FOMO card on the media today trouble is I hear nothing in his words to back up the claim. It feels like hit and hope.

    I'd rather hit and hope than what we have now which is "just nope"


  • #55
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Rob Cass playing the FOMO card...

    You're really trivialising it with that comment. What do we give out about incessantly on here other than missing out?

    We're forever complaining (and rightly so) about having no university, no 24/7 cardiac care, and no support for our airport, all of which are things that Cork and Limerick have.

    Yet when we're presented with an opportunity to move up a step from just being another county town and join the same club as Cork and Limerick, we're going to do what, throw away the chance? Why?


  • #56
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    fricatus wrote: »
    You're really trivialising it with that comment. What do we give out about incessantly on here other than missing out?

    We're forever complaining (and rightly so) about having no university, no 24/7 cardiac care, and no support for our airport, all of which are things that Cork and Limerick have.

    Yet when we're presented with an opportunity to move up a step from just being another county town and join the same club as Cork and Limerick, we're going to do what, throw away the chance? Why?

    As stated above I am in the undecided camp, leaning towards no. My reason for that is we are buying a pig in poke here. Other posters have pointed out that Michael Walsh has done a great job as Manager. He is a Civil Engineer and a very experienced administrator completely on top of his job. We will end up paying an extra €500K to put Mr or Mrs X above him. There's no extra budget and we don't know if Mr(s) X will have any qualifications or experience but we do know, as is the nature of these things, he/she will have to sell his vision to the electorate. Or put another way, promise goodies. We know Sinn Fein and PPP think water is a human right that costs nothing and that everyone is "entitled" to a house. Where is the revenue going to come from to pay for all the existing freebies plus the election goodies?

    I am at a loss to see the gain to be honest.


  • #57
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Which is why I'm a sceptic. It's all promises with very little backing it.

    The idea posited above that it's like a permanent minister is balderdash


  • #58
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    As stated above I am in the undecided camp, leaning towards no. My reason for that is we are buying a pig in poke here. Other posters have pointed out that Michael Walsh has done a great job as Manager. He is a Civil Engineer and a very experienced administrator completely on top of his job. We will end up paying an extra €500K to put Mr or Mrs X above him. There's no extra budget and we don't know if Mr(s) X will have any qualifications or experience but we do know, as is the nature of these things, he/she will have to sell his vision to the electorate. Or put another way, promise goodies. We know Sinn Fein and PPP think water is a human right that costs nothing and that everyone is "entitled" to a house. Where is the revenue going to come from to pay for all the existing freebies plus the election goodies?

    I am at a loss to see the gain to be honest.

    In addition to what you've said, this person needs to go in for a 5 year term. Can you imagine what the people of Waterford would do to the local person, living in Waterford all the week and available to them, who promised them goodies but then couldn't deliver on the promises?

    You diminish the role of potentially highly qualified administrators and replace them with who knows what.


  • #59
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    hardybuck wrote: »

    You diminish the role of potentially highly qualified administrators and replace them with who knows what.

    I'd expect the most prominent candidates to be ex TD's, senators, would-be TD's, senators and MEP's, with a scattering "personality" figures and maybe the odd retired business mogul or entrepreneur.


  • #60
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/ourview/directly-elected-mayors-the-case-has-not-been-made-922248.html

    Good article above, it didnt work in England, see hartlepool example as an extreme sample of what can go wrong.
    Take a punt on something that has not been defined and what specifics there are indicate no major advantages (taking from CEO or just another layer).some I think are hoping that it could all be great in the end but you would not take such a chance with your own personal important stuff. Some of the quotes in article from government... 'unclear', etc are worrying.the cost..no faith that govt would maintain any extra money after first mayor, 2.5m over 5 years we don't have. If say limerick went for it and it actually worked, maybe we could then go for it, who knows.one thing that could be a positive is (not sure) is that any policy this mayor tried to introduce might need councillors approval, I don't think he/she could dictate, that begs question though, what the f will they do.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    I dont see what a directly elected Mayor will do for the city
    the new mayor is just assuming powers from the city Manager and such, powers that already exist here in the City.

    As the role will elected on a four year cycle it will be a very populous run office, a lot of the hard decisions will be pushed out as the new mayor wont want to upset his voters and loose his job come next election.

    where will the money come from? probably from the city coffers, so what services will be cut to pay for this role?

    just not sure the benefit to the city is..

    and doing it because the other cities are ... is the most ridiculous argument yet


Advertisement