Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle · 20-03-2019 01:31PM

Her word doesn't mean much but:
"The idea that three years after voting to leave the EU, the people of this country should be asked to elect a new set of MEPs is, I believe, unacceptable. It would be a failure to deliver on the referendum decision that this house said it would honour."
"As Prime Minister, I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than the 30th June"

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1108340552435589121

Enzokk · 20-03-2019 01:36PM

I don't see anything new today other than the PM doing what is right for her and her party. She doesn't care about the people she is supposed to represent and she doesn't care for those that her decisions will affect either.

If she gets her extension what she has done is to take remain off the table as the UK will not participate in the EU elections and thus it will be her deal or no Brexit. There will be no more extensions after that and she will force MPs to decide on disaster or her deal. That is low in my opinion and making people vote for your deal through fear will not end well. She will be removed soon after that and a new PM will not want her deal around their neck. She is causing more damage than is really necessary because she is stubborn and cares only for her party.

The EU should do the best thing for the UK and the EU and not grant an extension and prepare for no-deal. She will be gone soon after and either new elections or a new referendum will follow. We cannot continue with May in charge as she is hated on both sides in the House of Commons and anything she does will be undermined as soon as she is gone.

I am with Stella Creasy in hitting my head on the table every morning. This is a shambles and I wish we were done with this already. Another extension for even just a few months is just torture and to be honest there are more important things politicians in all countries need to focus on other than the Tory infighting about the EU.

Blowfish · 20-03-2019 01:36PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Her word doesn't mean much but:
"The idea that three years after voting to leave the EU, the people of this country should be asked to elect a new set of MEPs is, I believe, unacceptable. It would be a failure to deliver on the referendum decision that this house said it would honour."
"As Prime Minister, I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than the 30th June"

So, she says they shouldn't have to elect new MEP's, then asks for an extension which goes beyond the date to where electing MEP's are required?

Seriously, wtf is she thinking?

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta · 20-03-2019 01:37PM

robinph wrote: »

Hoping for a tweet from the EU before the end of PMQ's so we can hurry things along quickly.

A minister just said on her feet that they EU has said either 28 May or end of 2019 but I can't see where that info is from.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta · 20-03-2019 01:38PM

Blowfish wrote: »

So, she says they shouldn't have to elect new MEP's, then asks for an extension which goes beyond the date to where electing MEP's are required?

Seriously, wtf is she thinking?

But we already know they don't have to elect MEPs, as they can send other delegates to fill the seats until they either leave or remain (and hold an election).

An Ciarraioch · 20-03-2019 01:39PM

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

A minister just said on her feet that they EU has said either 28 May or end of 2019 but I can't see where that info is from.

Reuters tweet on previous page.

20-03-2019 01:40PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Her word doesn't mean much but:
"The idea that three years after voting to leave the EU, the people of this country should be asked to elect a new set of MEPs is, I believe, unacceptable. It would be a failure to deliver on the referendum decision that this house said it would honour."
"As Prime Minister, I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than the 30th June"

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1108340552435589121

What do they think is going to happen between the end of May and the end of June regarding their MEP's?

This is truly one of the more baffling aspects of what's been happening recently

briany · 20-03-2019 01:40PM

Enzokk wrote: »

The EU should do the best thing for the UK and the EU and not grant an extension and prepare for no-deal. She will be gone soon after and either new elections or a new referendum will follow. We cannot continue with May in charge as she is hated on both sides in the House of Commons and anything she does will be undermined as soon as she is gone.

A new referendum on what?

ShooterSF · 20-03-2019 01:40PM

micosoft wrote: »

The Irish Government did plan. What they didn't do is fall into the trap of publicly stating they had a plan which the DUP, Brexiteers and UK Government would have immediately landed on the Irish Government as an act of bad faith and that "The Irish Government". The Irish Govt. line has always been we do not want a border and therefore should not publicly plan for it.

In the real word the adage is that those who publicly prepare for brexit will be deliberately mid represented by the Brexit Ultra's.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Micosoft had it. The Irish government had a plan; it would just have been a very bad idea to say so publicly, since it would mean Ireland did not believe UK assurances that, even in in a no-deal situation, it would honour its no-hard-border commitment. Ireland in fact didn't believe those assurances, but it would have been a very bad idea to say so openly, since it would inflame things and make it easier for the UK to walk away from its assurances, and how would this be of any possible advantage to Ireland?

If that's the case we're all ok with our government apparently telling it's constituents barefaced lies then? To me that's what leads to the political landscape we have where people lose faith in our politicians. I'm not ok with being lied to because the government want to play games. Come out and say that you have no desire for a hard border but that one can't be completely ruled out in these bizarre circumstances and as rational adults we need to prepare for all outcomes. This is probably getting off topic though. Sorry.

RobertKK · 20-03-2019 01:40PM

The best option for the EU may be to cut the UK loose next week, let the crisis in the UK worsen to a point they have to come back to the EU with a deal done that is acceptable to the EU, have the UK get some sense which will be needed to solve the current impasse.

The EU can't allow this current drawn out crisis to simply continue by kicking a rusty can down the road.
Politics in the UK is broken to an extent that the EU needs to get rid of this toxic member of the EU.
Let the No deal "We love WTO" people own this. They have a deal that goes with the UK red lines and they refused to accept it. Nothing more the EU can do if the UK wants to act retarded.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta · 20-03-2019 01:44PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The best option for the EU may be to cut the UK loose next week, let the crisis in the UK worsen to a point they have to come back to the EU with a deal done that is acceptable to the EU, have the UK get some sense which will be needed to solve the current impasse.

The EU can't allow this current drawn out crisis to simply continue by kicking a rusty can down the road.
Politics in the UK is broken to an extent that the EU needs to get rid of this toxic member of the EU.
Let the No deal "We love WTO" people own this. They have a deal that goes with the UK red lines and they refused to accept it. Nothing more the EU can do if the UK wants to act retarded.

The problem with this is that no deal means no transition period, so the UK can't really come back after no deal with a deal (if that makes sense).

Dyr · 20-03-2019 01:44PM

To Paraphrase St Paul: “If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. he wants a no deal brexit let him crash out, In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head"

Give them what they want, refuse an extension and let them burn. Any other option will give them an excuse for why it all went pear shaped

They still have to negotiate the future relationship so they may do that while their economy is a the bottom of a cliff and the brexiteers are being held accountable for their promises.

20-03-2019 01:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they think is going to happen between the end of May and the end of June regarding their MEP's?

This is truly one of the more baffling aspects of what's been happening recently

A general election or a new Conservative leader I guess.

Enzokk · 20-03-2019 01:45PM

briany wrote: »

A new referendum on what?

Whether to rejoin the EU. This will not happen immediately though, the most likely action is a new general election and then a few years of stumbling around before they get to that realisation.

Leroy42 · 20-03-2019 01:45PM

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

But we already know they don't have to elect MEPs, as they can send other delegates to fill the seats until they either leave or remain (and hold an election).

What, so TM could just select anyone she wants?

Hardly taking back control and dealing with the anti-democratic EU now is it?

Could she send over whomever she likes, Olly Robbins for Eg?

Where is the basis for this ability for countries to simply ignore the democratic requirements?

Infini · 20-03-2019 01:46PM

Blowfish wrote: »

So, she says they shouldn't have to elect new MEP's, then asks for an extension which goes beyond the date to where electing MEP's are required?

Seriously, wtf is she thinking?

She's not thinking she's being arrogant and thick about things. EU should just pull the rug from under her feet: Leave or Stay. Pick your choice and live with it. No more games. They're not interested in a deal only bluster and pig ignorant arrogance and they wont listen to reason unless its under the threat of economic meltdown.

Seth Brundle · 20-03-2019 01:46PM

Blowfish wrote: »

So, she says they shouldn't have to elect new MEP's, then asks for an extension which goes beyond the date to where electing MEP's are required?

Seriously, wtf is she thinking?

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they think is going to happen between the end of May and the end of June regarding their MEP's?

This is truly one of the more baffling aspects of what's been happening recently

Just for clarification: the European Parliament elections will be held between 23 and 26 May 2019 and the newly elected MEPs will take their seats on 1 July 2019.
However, the allocation or redistribution of the UKs existing seats will add complications to the elections as they may decide to revoke Art 50 or could decide to crash out.

20-03-2019 01:48PM

Could they refuse an extension, which would remove the UK from membership on Mar 29th, and we are in effect, in the position of a no deal exit.
But reach out an offer an optional re-entry (on EU terms) back into the fold, if it all goes t*ts up? And limit that option to two years?

In the absence of a referendum on deal/remain I can see that passing HOC with the usual hardliners voting against it.

ShooterSF · 20-03-2019 01:52PM

Surely the EU needs to come back with May 22nd or agree that you can't revoke article 50 past that date if you want an extension till the end of June due to not electing MEPs. She might even be able to pass a meaningful vote then in June

Blowfish · 20-03-2019 01:53PM

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

But we already know they don't have to elect MEPs, as they can send other delegates to fill the seats until they either leave or remain (and hold an election).

My understanding is that there's legislation around appointing MEP's and it must be through an elected PR process.

That's aside from the obvious in that some of their seats have been 'handed out' to other countries, Ireland are gaining 2. What's supposed to happen there? Do they also expect the EU to be happy with them 'wasting' the seats by them being appointed/elected but not actually being around long enough for the first euro parliament sitting?

[edit] Partially beaten to it, thread moves fast.

Laois_Man · 20-03-2019 01:53PM

I'm flabbergasted!

This has to be rejected and there's no need to delay the rejection of it. Let her come to the summit and make a fool of herself tomorrow, then reject the request within an hour. It's out of the question that this request can be accommodated. No EU elections in the UK on May 23rd and then they possibly revoke article 50 on June 23rd = absolute chaos in the EU.

It's out of the question!

Enzokk · 20-03-2019 01:54PM

PMQs is infuriating. May has stated a few times that parliament had the chance to take control of the process but they voted against it. I am happy to be corrected but didn't she whip against those motions like the Benn amendment that would have set aside time for MPs to debate those options?

It takes some courage to claim the house had a chance to do something when you, with your majority, stopped that very thing from happening. She is a liar and is not to be trusted.

Laois_Man · 20-03-2019 01:57PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Surely the EU needs to come back with May 22nd or agree that you can't revoke article 50 past that date if you want an extension till the end of June due to not electing MEPs. She might even be able to pass a meaningful vote then in June

May 22nd is no good either.
The EU could effectively be in a position where the UK revokes article 50 at 10:30pm on May 22nd with them having no elections the next day and every other EU country running elections where the allocation of seats has just become incorrect.

Let them crash out next week.

I am worried about our farmers and fishermen in particular in such an eventuality but there's no other way!

Infini · 20-03-2019 01:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Could they refuse an extension, which would remove the UK from membership on Mar 29th, and we are in effect, in the position of a no deal exit.
But reach out an offer an optional re-entry (on EU terms) back into the fold, if it all goes t*ts up? And limit that option to two years?

In the absence of a referendum on deal/remain I can see that passing HOC with the usual hardliners voting against it.

It's likely that they'd let Britain rejoin down the line once it get's its head out of its arse and get's its house in order. Conservatives and May need to go though they're dangerously incompetent and irredemably arrogant. Britain needs a significant amount of time to get its house in order and likely there wont be any point in rejoining before this happens. Likely though Scotland will go independent and NI will reunify with the south during that time though.

I honestly think the EU should just reject the application for an extention this week so as to give the UK enough time to seriously decide what it wants: In or Out. Make your choice but no more delaying or games. Decide. Because all they'll do is stall, delay and evade any decision unless they're forced to choose to be honest.

Leroy42 · 20-03-2019 01:57PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Surely the EU needs to come back with May 22nd or agree that you can't revoke article 50 past that date if you want an extension till the end of June due to not electing MEPs. She might even be able to pass a meaningful vote then in June

Apparently that is what they are already indicating

"Any extension offered to the United Kingdom should either last until 23 May 2019 or should be significantly longer and require European elections,” the document said. “This is the only way of protecting the functioning of the EU institutions and their ability to take decisions.”

But TM must have already been aware of this, so why would she send a letter to the EU knowing that it would likely be rejected? Even from a diplomatic POV this seems incredibly rude.

There was no doubt off record meetings where this possibility was discussed and the options open on both sides. I can't believe that the EU failed to inform her of the issues with the elections, and the question must be asked why she is ignoring the position that the EU would have made clear and sent a letter knowing that it would, likely, be rejected.

Is it just to try to get some extra time? And if so, surely she understands the cost in terms of trust and future negotiations this type of carry on will likely lead to.

ShooterSF · 20-03-2019 01:58PM

Enzokk wrote: »

PMQs is infuriating. May has stated a few times that parliament had the chance to take control of the process but they voted against it. I am happy to be corrected but didn't she whip against those motions like the Benn amendment that would have set aside time for MPs to debate those options?

It takes some courage to claim the house had a chance to do something when you, with your majority, stopped that very thing from happening. She is a liar and is not to be trusted.

In fairness she also whipped against the amendment to her own bill looking to reject a no deal and when she failed she whipped AGAINST her own bill and lost. So that whip is pretty blunt...

Duane Dibbley · 20-03-2019 01:59PM

The EU will reject this extension quick smart due to EU MEP elections.

But TM knows this already.

Leroy42 · 20-03-2019 02:00PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

I'm flabbergasted!

This has to be rejected and there's no need to delay the rejection of it. Let her come to the summit and make a fool of herself tomorrow, then reject the request within an hour. It's out of the question that this request can be accommodated. No EU elections in the UK on May 23rd and then they possibly revoke article 50 on June 23rd = absolute chaos in the EU.

It's out of the question!

There is no need to reject it out of hand or quickly.

TM is saying that she needs a short extension to get her deal through. So hold off any reply and let her find a way to get her MV again. If that passes that 30th June is grand.

Put the ball firmly back in TM's court

Blowfish · 20-03-2019 02:01PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

May 22nd is no good either.
The EU could effectively be in a position where the UK revokes article 50 at 10:30pm on May 22nd with them having no elections the next day and every other EU country running elections where the allocation of seats has just become incorrect.

And that's the whole farce of it. The EU have to protect their own institutions, hence the absolutely only way they will agree to an extension is if either the UK has MEP elections or the extension is short enough that should A50 be revoked there'll still be time to plan and execute the MEP elections.

May being May of course ruled out elections entirely and asked for a timeframe where elections would be required....

Kiith · 20-03-2019 02:01PM

The utter hypocrisy to try and force her vote through a 3rd time when she claims that having a 2nd referendum would be unconstitutional is staggering.

The EU has to flat out reject it.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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