Australian Open 2019

Joe_ Public · 27-01-2019 2:55pm

Johnmb wrote: »

Tennis is why I watch tennis. The GOAT debate is pointless as there are too many variables, not least of which is how do you measure it? The number of slams measurement only became a thing during the Sampras era, nobody before him was that bothered about counting the totals, so how do you measure what they achieved given that they often didn't even bother to show up for slams that didn't suit their calendar, in in the case of Laver, he didn't play any for a considerable period. Then you get into equipment. Put a wooden racket with natural gut string into the hands of a modern player, and that's Djokovic and Nadal completely out of the equation. Put a modern racket and strings into Laver's hands, and.... who knows? He'd definitely have to completely change his style of play, would that still be as successful? It's impossible to say, and pointless. Right now, we know who the best player in the world is, that is all we know.

Don’t know much about the current goat debate or interminable ins and outs of it, but every word of that post rings true and can probably more or less translate into most other sports too.

velo.2010 · 27-01-2019 2:57pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Federer is the GOAT.
Anybody arguing about that just doesn't like the man or something.
Don't bother waiting me to argue because I'll just dismiss it as you having an agenda.

So someone can't offer a rational argument as to why he may not be the greatest of all time? If they do, it must mean they dislike Federer. What nonsense. Straw man much!

dominatinMC · 27-01-2019 2:59pm

Upright Row wrote:

He did look slow today, that's what happens when you get older, not even Novak is as fast as he used to be.

Didn't think Novak looked any different to usual tbh. That stretching of his looked as good as ever

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 3:12pm

dominatinMC wrote: »

Didn't think Novak looked any different to usual tbh. That stretching of his looked as good as ever

To the untrained eye anyone can look as good as before, but scientific fact is that humans reach peak speed around 23.

Look at Usain Bolt for example. Hit his peak at 23. He was still fast as f*ck after that, and if there was no clock there, not many would notice the difference. But there IS a difference.

walshb · 27-01-2019 3:41pm

The GOAT debate is interesting..

For me, Fed deserves it when you assess as much criteria as possible.

Key criteria being success/longevity, GS titles won, and actual skills on the court. Nobody IMO has ever shown the amazing brilliance on a tennis court quite like RF. Every single facet of the game.

All on their “best day” I think it’s razor close H2H..

Could be 50/50 split in terms of who beats who..

Might lean with Nole ever so slightly here. He just matches up so well..

And it’s his ridiculous defense and court coverage that sees this..

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:00pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not true re Roddick. Roddick beat Federer in Miami in their one and only meeting in 2008. There were also some close matches between the two in 2009 leading into Wimbledon.

Nice try though.

So that can't account for Roddick coming into some form. He often ran Federer close between 04-07. No it can only mean Federer was way past it in 08. He beat Roddick 4 times in 09, including straight sets in Oz. I guess one defeat to Roddick proves beyond all doubt that Federer was past it.

You've never actually addressed one point I've continually made. You never account for a loss of confidence or doubting oneself in Federer, which comes with the territory of having real competition. It reeks of an insecurity complex by those unable to admit he was often bested, no he had to be "past it"

WicklowBrave · 27-01-2019 4:05pm

Novak Djokovic is the best men's tennis player ever. Deep down, everyone who watches tennis knows this. He is odds on to win 20+ slams.

Floppybits · 27-01-2019 4:06pm

Badabing wrote: »

Will Federer go to RG, i can't see the point only if it's his last year and he wants to say goodbye. Still has a decent chance at Wimbledon if he stays fit.

Yep he indicated in a press conference at the Australian open that he will be playing the French Open this year.

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 4:07pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So that can't account for Roddick coming into some form. He often ran Federer close between 04-07. No it can only mean Federer was way past it in 08. He beat Roddick 4 times in 09, including straight sets in Oz. I guess one defeat to Roddick proves beyond all doubt that Federer was past it.

You've never actually addressed one point I've continually made. You never account for a loss of confidence or doubting oneself in Federer, which comes with the territory of having real competition. It reeks of an insecurity complex by those unable to admit he was often bested, no he had to be "past it"

So you think losing to Nadal caused Federer a catastrophic loss of confidence that he started losing to journeymen in 2008?

I suppose you think that the glandular fever was a hoax too.

Loss of confidence against Nadal might have an affect in matches against NADAL, but it is not going to make him lose to the B-listers he lost to in 2008.

He wasn’t 100%. So what. That’s life. They aren’t robots. Accept it! There were plenty of times Nadal and Djokovic haven’t been at 100% too.

walshb · 27-01-2019 4:09pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I always enjoy that an excuse is allowed for Rafa losing to Soderling in 2009, yet no excuse is allowed for Roger losing to Novak in 2008 Australian Open.

What excuse has RF here?

Glandular fever? Far too much being made of this. You don’t make a slam final if you’re not up for it and fit. And it’s not like it was Nole’s first win over RF.

Plenty players get injured or suffer bouts of illnesses...you’d swear RF was a deaths door the way some of his fanboys hype this sh1t up..

RF suffered with GF for a brief period of time in 2008. Big deal. He was fully recovered by April or so of that year..

The other poster comparing it to Soderling, who battled the illness for several bloody years....

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 4:11pm

I’ve said it many times, and I’ll say it again. The 2008 Wimbledon Final was overrated in terms of quality. It was epic drama, but the quality wasn’t vintage Federer or Nadal. Nadal should have had that won in straight sets that day. He choked, and let Federer back into it.

The 2009 Australian Open Final is the greatest match in terms of quality I have ever seen between Roger and Rafa. The first 4 sets was two guys playing immense tennis. It sadly didn’t have the epic finale that Wimbledon had, but the quality overall was much better.

Royale with Cheese · 27-01-2019 4:13pm

I've always been a big Federer fan but can see Djokovic ending up with the bigger legacy, he just looked unbeatable today. While Nadal is a great player and competitor, I just don't think you could consider him the overall greatest of the 3 if he ends up with 14+ French opens.

Truth be told there's fúck all between the three of them, but another few years of sustained Djokovic success might change that.

josip · 27-01-2019 4:13pm

Maybe Top Trumps should release a 'Tennis Players' set of cards.
Instead of the usual 4/5 criteria it sounds like we'd need around 20 different parameters for tennis.

walshb · 27-01-2019 4:15pm

The 2008 final was stunning quality..

Great that you have such the keen eye to so clearly able to say that its quality was not as good as other years..

Let’s say you are right...we’ll, it’s darn close to being as good...

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 4:17pm

walshb wrote: »

What excuse has RF here?

Glandular fever? Far too much being made of this. You don’t make a slam final if you’re not up for it and fit. And it’s not like it was Nole’s first win over RF.

Plenty players get injured or suffer bouts of illnesses...you’d swear RF was a deaths door the way some of his fanboys hype this sh1t up..

RF suffered with GF for a brief period of time in 2008. Big deal. He was fully recovered by April or so of that year..

The other poster comparing it to Soderling, who battled the illness for several bloody years....

If you are usually ahead of the pack, and you are at 90%, you can get past the dross, but that won’t enough come a semi final against the world number 3.

Federer only scraped past Tipsaravic 10-8 in the 5th in the third round. Hardly vintage Federer.

walshb · 27-01-2019 4:17pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

Usain Bolt was fastest in 2009 at 23,if we didn't have conclusive evidence people would be saying he was faster in the following years as people just like to think that the current year is the peak.

Tennis and athletics being compared here is just so stupid..

Tennis has far far more variables to consider. Plus it’s much easier to measure...

walshb · 27-01-2019 4:22pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

That's exactly my point, we can measure conclusively in athletics peaks. It's not as easy in Tennis. But you can still do it.

It’s not really your point. Too much to consider in tennis to back up your such certainty..

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:29pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

So you think losing to Nadal caused Federer a catastrophic loss of confidence that he started losing to journeymen in 2008?

I suppose you think that the glandular fever was a hoax too.

Loss of confidence against Nadal might have an affect in matches against NADAL, but it is not going to make him lose to the B-listers he lost to in 2008.

He wasn’t 100%. So what. That’s life. They aren’t robots. Accept it! There were plenty of times Nadal and Djokovic haven’t been at 100% too.

What journeymen? Roddick? Ye but apparently Roddick is simultaneously brilliant to show how tough that era was too.

Loss of confidence wouldn't have a knock on effect? News to me. Also, to best Nadal, surely Federer had to work on his game and implement new things, no? Surely he had to work on these facets against other players too?

Either way, this is all marginal stuff. Nadal had just surpassed Federer by this point. So Federer was at his peak in 07? Nadal had him tied up in knots on his favourite surface in Wimbledon that year too. Won 6 games on the bounce was it, before he was stretchered off for 20 minutes. A real knock that the world could see, not some mitigating excuse after the fact, ala 08. Federer fans tend not to talk about Nadal's injury in the 07 final though. Until that point, there was only one winner. Federer was struggling past a teenage Nadal on all surfaces during his "peak" years ffs

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:30pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

Nope, 52 unforced errors from Federer, that's very sloppy.

Indirect forced errors I would have said

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:34pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

I'd say Federer's peak year was 2006. Nadal is a great player who peaked young, why would you expect Federer to brush aside Nadal? Nadal has a game that matches up well against Federer due to his unusual high bouncing forehand onto Federer's single handed backhand.

Well if he's the GOAT, surely the mark of true greatness is to find a way to adapt and beat Nadal. The beatings were just getting worse until Nadal took a serious injury in 09 was it?

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 4:36pm

Nadal has had injuries all his career. Bad luck? I’d have thought this is a reflection of his style of play. Staying fit is part of the sport too.

How often has Federer missed a grand slam? His playing style is smarter. He doesn’t flog his body like Nadal does.

Illness is a difference kettle of fish. Why did Federer get mono? Was it tennis related? I have no idea.

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:36pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

Whatever you want to call them, they rose in 2008.

Ye, due to the quality of returns he was facing that he couldn't handle.

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:39pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

When did I say he's the GOAT? You're projecting.

I'm merely arguing that he was past his peak in 2008. I think there is an argument for all three of them as goat.

I don't agree that he was past his peak, and if so it's marginal stuff. If he won the 08 final, we would be told his peak was 03-08

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:41pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

From wiki:

In March, Federer revealed that he had recently been diagnosed with mononucleosis and that he may have suffered from it as early as December 2007. He noted, however, that he was now "medically cleared to compete".[1] Despite being cleared to compete Federer admitted that he had suffered a significant dip in fitness due to his struggle with mononucleosis, which would prove to negatively impact his results till the Miami Masters in which he lost to long-time foe, Andy Roddick.

So he was fully fit for Wimbledon then?

Chivito550 · 27-01-2019 4:43pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

In 2008 Federer lost 6-3 6-2 vs Mardy Fish

He lost against Giles Simon.
He lost against Stepanek.
He lost against Ivo Karlovic.
He lost against James Blake.

He keeps ignoring this.

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:44pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

In 2008 Federer lost 6-3 6-2 vs Mardy Fish

He lost against Giles Simon.
He lost against Stepanek.
He lost against Ivo Karlovic.
He lost against James Blake.

He's lost matches in every year he's played

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:46pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

He keeps ignoring this.

I don't. He was fully fit for Wimbledon regardless of defeats that happened months earlier. What did you think of Nadal's injury in the 07 final? Did it have any bearing on the match you think?

The Golden Miller · 27-01-2019 4:47pm

Kaffeekuche wrote: »

I wouldn't say he was peak if he won the 2008 final. He won the US Open in 2008 but he he was still well past his peak.

He lost a few matches months before Wimbledon. His confidence was rocked thereafter

yerwanthere123 · 27-01-2019 4:49pm

This thread

RosyLily · 27-01-2019 4:54pm

As was pointed out pages ago, there's a thread especially for GOAT debate. Why not use it

Australian Open 2019

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