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Rugby attendance
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01-01-2019 10:26am#1I think most of us can agree that since going professional rugby has had steady growth in terms of viewership and participation. However for some reason this doesn’t seem to be translating into people actually going out to attend matches, attendances for big clubs have been fairly stagnant in the pro 14 for the last 7/8 seasons.
There’s certainly been growth in the attendance of Ireland games over the same period, so are the provinces and other clubs missing a trick somehow? Does rugby lack something in the match day experiences that other sports who regularly fill stadiums have?
I’ve been attending leinster matches since 2007, and always find it a pleasant experience. Even though some games can become a bit of a drag with a 30 point cushion by half time and a barley half full RDS.
Even in country’s where rugby would be the national sport such as wales, South Africa and New Zealand there seems to be a similar problem. So what is it about rugby that despite its growing popularity it’s attendance figures don’t seem to rise at least at club level?1
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Does rugby deliberately exclude some social groups ?
Maybe this is the cause, an effort to engage working class communities in Dublin & Cork and expand into rural areas elsewhere may help.
I think rugby’s pretty inclusive in limerick so it would be interesting to see what their attendance is like and who it comprises of.0 -
The cost of going to a game plays a huge part in attendance as does the fact if you stay at home you have the possibility of watching a few games but if you go to a game then the likelihood is that you'll only get to watch the game you're at.0
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As a Munster fan, I go to as many pro14 games as I can but there are some issues for me and my crew at least.
It can be expensive. You can get cheap tickets for terraces, but stand tickets are still expensive enough in the likes of thomond for example. If you have. 2 adults and 2 kids, it adds up. Then you add in a burger or hot dog, some drinks, travel etc it gets pricy so you pick and choose which games you go to. (The pulled pork from the BBQ guy near the Shannon club house is a must if you go to thomond....has to be done and the kids love the hot dogs there..huge)
Tickets can be cheaper if you buy early or a season ticket, but it's not always possible to know 100% that everyone can go until a few days before hand. Its not the same going to a game on your today either.
Some of the games are just not that attractive either when you take into account the cost. And some of them are just ****e. The likes of zebre as an example, you are not going out of your way to get into limerick for. That's the reality. It's easier and cheaper watch on TV.
If you are having a few beers, it makes it more expensive again , with taxis and babysitters and the like.
Games in thomond have become a bit cheaper, but not everyone can go to every game so you become more picky. I generally do one away Munster trip and one 6n away as well so that has to be factored in as well to budgets. In recent years I get away 6n tickets easier than home ones, so chose that...but also not cheap.
Personally, I think aside from social media Munster are shocking at marketing games. Rarely see or hear anything about games in thomond apart from facebook ads. But maybe that's just me.
The big one that a lot of hard core supporters don't seem to get is the pro14 is just not that attractive as a competition. It reminds me of the hurling league. People who are really into it will go to a good few games, everyone else will catch one or two. In general the average punter sees it as just an average competition, unless you get to the latter stages...and even then most people are not that bothered.0 -
Ireland has a bandwagon culture. It's not limited to rugby. If the game isn't viewed as an event, it won't be well attended. Dublin vs Kerry in Croke Park attracted 24k spectators in the NFL last season. 31k people went to see our national football team play their nearest rivals in the Aviva recently. Those are our two biggest team sports comfortably yet fail to bring in crowds too.
But if it was a Heineken Cup match, an All Ireland game or a crunch WC qualifier, the stadiums would be full.
The amount of work done by the GAA and IRFU to develop their sports in non-traditional areas in recent years has been massive. It will be ignored by those with an agenda but it is taking place with a large degree of success too. That is not going to result in bums on seats when it comes to attendances though.
Until the Pro14 becomes a better product overall with consistent selections, rivalries and higher standards then the attendances aren't going to improve. And the league has gone backwards noticeably this season in both conferences. I would suggest that all of the top sides in the competition are possibly weaker right now than they were last season.
Pricing is almost certainly an issue too. It's a significant spend for someone to go to a match and bring a couple of kids with parking and food thrown in.0 -
I regularly attend matches as a neutral, so I think I have a good idea of how the league would appear to newcomers or non-hardcore fans if they attend a match.
If I am honest, I find a lot of the Leinster Pro14 games I watch to be fairly dull affairs from a rugby point of view. Leinster are pretty much guaranteed to win, the opposition are muck more often than not. You get the odd cracker here and there, but even league interpros these days are fairly dull with one side usually fielding a B team.
I think the welsh have additional issues, struggling to get their supporters to relate to their made-up teams as well as some outright crap teams in there.
Scotland probably just lacks the numbers and the interest, both Glasgow and Edinburgh are huge football cities, hard to compete with that.
If more regular paying punters is the aim then either prices need to drop or standards need to increase. Hard to see either happen.0 -
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The IRFU don’t do enough in working class areas, I went to Terenure for school but from Crumlin- school was rugby but my area knew nothing about it. Workshops by the IRFU that we’re prevalent in middle to upper class school didn’t exist in working class techs or Community schools.
People grow up with little knowledge or interest as a result. My local area and friends who went to school locally in Crumlin will come to 6 nations games with me but when I’m in the RDS or Ravenhill they won’t.
There isn’t enough put in by the IRFU and thays factual in Dublin.0 -
It's a bit of everything.
Non inclusive demographics (in Leinster and Ulster only), cost, low standard compared to the Six Nations or Heineken Cup.
The other issue of course is that rugby is an incredibly complex game which isn't very newbie friendly. Certainly not at the match where you can't hear anything going on. I bring my radio to most matches just to hear the referee.
The television experience is far superior in that respect. The NFL is having a similar issue as well where people would much rather watch it on TV with all of the graphics and explanations than pay $100 for nosebleed seats where they can't see or hear anything.
I brought my girlfriend to the Connacht match in the RDS last week and it was her first time at a rugby match since we went to one world cup warmup in 2011.
She hadn't a clue what was going on and lost interest before half time.
The flip side of course was that even she was on her feet for the 40 phase leading up to that last try.0 -
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Considering the success of the National team and centralised location and population in Leinster the RDS attendances are poor.0 -
Does attendance really matter much anymore? Anyone know what the income breakdown is in terms of gate revenue vs TV revenue?0
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Henry Ford III wrote: »Considering the success of the National team and centralised location and population in Leinster the RDS attendances are poor.
Rugby in Leinster is still very much the posh sport.
I'm not from a posh area and neither are any of the people I go to matches with. But we're very much the exception.
Rugby needs to break it's reputation as one for posh people. I think it's getting there but it does need to work harder in working class areas like where my family is from.
The only reason we ended up watching rugby is because it's a sports mad house in general.0 -
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Rugby in Leinster is still very much the posh sport.
I'm not from a posh area and neither are any of the people I go to matches with. But we're very much the exception.
Rugby needs to break it's reputation as one for posh people. I think it's getting there but it does need to work harder in working class areas like where my family is from.
The only reason we ended up watching rugby is because it's a sports mad house in general.
I’d be in the same boat as yourself and although it’s fairly obvious of the difference in demographics compared to GAA or football it’s certainly changing albeit quite slowly.0 -
No meaningful rivalries outside of the interpros. Saccharine marketing crap won't fix this. You need hatred. Zebre or Dragons need to gouge and stamp on the likes of Murray or Ringrose, and the crowds will start turning up. Or be caught bribing a ref.0
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Bubblegummers wrote: »The IRFU don’t do enough in working class areas, I went to Terenure for school but from Crumlin- school was rugby but my area knew nothing about it. Workshops by the IRFU that we’re prevalent in middle to upper class school didn’t exist in working class techs or Community schools.
People grow up with little knowledge or interest as a result. My local area and friends who went to school locally in Crumlin will come to 6 nations games with me but when I’m in the RDS or Ravenhill they won’t.
There isn’t enough put in by the IRFU and thays factual in Dublin.
If you go through the number of schools that now have rugby programmes compared to 15 years ago, there's a massive difference. Literally dozens of schools who didn't play previously. My former school was a CBS on the northside where there was never any team. They now field teams in the junior and senior cycles every season.
There's only so much they can do with their budget which needs to develop the sport throughout the entire island at both schools and club level. West Offaly, Tallaght RFC, Liberty Saints, Ratoath, Normans, North Meath, Midland Warriors...all clubs that were founded in recent years in non-traditional areas.
Wity respect to the Crumlin area, I see Drimnagh Castle are fielding rugby teams in recent seasons and there have also been rugby programmes introduced in the local primary school.0 -
Bubblegummers wrote: »The IRFU don’t do enough in working class areas, I went to Terenure for school but from Crumlin- school was rugby but my area knew nothing about it. Workshops by the IRFU that we’re prevalent in middle to upper class school didn’t exist in working class techs or Community schools.
People grow up with little knowledge or interest as a result. My local area and friends who went to school locally in Crumlin will come to 6 nations games with me but when I’m in the RDS or Ravenhill they won’t.
There isn’t enough put in by the IRFU and thays factual in Dublin.
In the last 15 years the Leinster Branch have introduced rugby to 8 schools in the Tallaght area that weren’t playing rugby before. It’s simply not true to say it’s factual in Dublin, when the facts don’t support what you’re saying. However certain schools will not allow rugby to be played or won’t engage with the Branch. Possibly due to pre-existing relationships or alliances with other organizations. It’s an ongoing effort, but not an easy task to grow rugby in non tradiditional areas, but one the IRFU are heavily invested in.0 -
Why can't they let the referee explain every penalty like in the NFL?
It's not intrusive and you'd get used to it very quickly.
Just turn to the camera, switch on his mike, do the motions and say something like:
"Hands in the ruck, penalty to team X."
If that sounds too hokey, just open the mic to the stadium PA after each whistle.0 -
Why can't they let the referee explain every penalty like in the NFL?
It's not intrusive and you'd get used to it very quickly.
Just turn to the camera, switch on his mike, do the motions and say something like:
"Hands in the ruck, penalty to team X."
If that sounds too hokey, just open the mic to the stadium PA after each whistle.
I agree. Sure play has stopped anyway. Where’s the harm in having the ref mikes being broadcast in the ground anyway.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 23144
The largest provincial stadium Thomond Park 25,600 is in the second smallest city (Limerick 162,413 Metro population), Ravenhill 18,196 is in Belfast (671,559 Metro population), The RDS 18,500 is in the largest city population (1,347,359 Metro population), finally, the Sportsground (8,100) is in the smallest city (79,934).
For Thomond Park to fill from local people only they will need ~16% of the local population to attend, Sportsground will need ~10%, Ravenhill ~3% and the RDS 1%, for the Aviva to fill from locals 4% of the population would need to travel.
In my opinion, Munster are directly effected by the quality on the pitch and the time of the matches, not many people are going to make a 4 hour round trip from Cork for a meaningless game with second or third string players playing on a Friday evening, to be honest, I struggle to get motivated myself to make the half hour trip on a Friday evening. It might sound like blasphemy but Munster made a mistake in developing Thomond Park into their main ground.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 23144
Another problem with Munster is that there is a whole generation that link watching Munster matches to going to the pub, I remember a time when I'd be going to matches later than lads going to the pub cause they had to get in early to get a good spot, they wouldn't dream of going to a match because tickets were considered impossible to get. They made a huge mistake in 2006 HEC Final by having the big screen in O'Connell Street, they should have opened Thomond Park to get a link to the place going.0 -
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Yes, because of course Musgrave (capacity 8,000) is sold out everytime there's a match in Cork (Metro population ~400,000) :rolleyes:
It pretty much is every match, last season the below were the games played there and the attendances
Benetton 7,854
Dragons 8,000
Ospreys 8,008
Glasgow 8,0080 -
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Join Date:Posts: 23144
It pretty much is every match, last season the below were the games played there and the attendances
Benetton 7,854
Dragons 8,000
Ospreys 8,008
Glasgow 8,008
And the year before they were pretty much sold out every game as well
Cardiff 7,405
Ospreys 8,008
Newport 8,008
Glasgow 8,0080 -
In the last 15 years the Leinster Branch have introduced rugby to 8 schools in the Tallaght area that weren’t playing rugby before. It’s simply not true to say it’s factual in Dublin, when the facts don’t support what you’re saying. However certain schools will not allow rugby to be played or won’t engage with the Branch. Possibly due to pre-existing relationships or alliances with other organizations. It’s an ongoing effort, but not an easy task to grow rugby in non tradiditional areas, but one the IRFU are heavily invested in.
Ok is this not factual between Tallaght walkinstown Crumlin and drimnagh 41 schools 16 workshops of programs that is factual.0 -
If you go through the number of schools that now have rugby programmes compared to 15 years ago, there's a massive difference. Literally dozens of schools who didn't play previously. My former school was a CBS on the northside where there was never any team. They now field teams in the junior and senior cycles every season.
There's only so much they can do with their budget which needs to develop the sport throughout the entire island at both schools and club level. West Offaly, Tallaght RFC, Liberty Saints, Ratoath, Normans, North Meath, Midland Warriors...all clubs that were founded in recent years in non-traditional areas.
Wity respect to the Crumlin area, I see Drimnagh Castle are fielding rugby teams in recent seasons and there have also been rugby programmes introduced in the local primary school.
The castle is 1 out of 12 schools with a program in D12 that’s not good.0 -
The largest provincial stadium Thomond Park 25,600 is in the second smallest city (Limerick 162,413 Metro population), Ravenhill 18,196 is in Belfast (671,559 Metro population), The RDS 18,500 is in the largest city population (1,347,359 Metro population), finally, the Sportsground (8,100) is in the smallest city (79,934).
For Thomond Park to fill from local people only they will need ~16% of the local population to attend, Sportsground will need ~10%, Ravenhill ~3% and the RDS 1%, for the Aviva to fill from locals 4% of the population would need to travel.
In my opinion, Munster are directly effected by the quality on the pitch and the time of the matches, not many people are going to make a 4 hour round trip from Cork for a meaningless game with second or third string players playing on a Friday evening, to be honest, I struggle to get motivated myself to make the half hour trip on a Friday evening. It might sound like blasphemy but Munster made a mistake in developing Thomond Park into their main ground.
Galway s total population is over 260 000 and I would be of the opinion that a lot more of Connacht rugby support comes from outside the city then in . Add to that that they also get numbers from athlone Castlebar and similar areas and that’s why sportsground is regularly full . Renovations starting when season over will bring it to a 10 k ground with extra temporary seating to bring it to 12000 when needed0 -
In my opinion, Munster are directly effected by the quality on the pitch and the time of the matches, not many people are going to make a 4 hour round trip from Cork for a meaningless game with second or third string players playing on a Friday evening, to be honest, I struggle to get motivated myself to make the half hour trip on a Friday evening. It might sound like blasphemy but Munster made a mistake in developing Thomond Park into their main ground.
When is the last time there was a Friday night game in Limeick? They are a very rare occurrence. Most Friday night games are in Cork.0 -
Bubblegummers wrote: »The castle is 1 out of 12 schools with a program in D12 that’s not good.
And how many of those other 11 are viable options for sustaining a rugby team?
The IRFU are going to target where they've the most chance of being successful and reaching the greatest numbers. As I said, they can only work within their budgets but are obviously making significant efforts to develop the game in non-traditional areas. It would be great if every school had a rugby programme and fielded a team but it's not realistic.0 -
Like most sports there are far more boring rugby matches than there are 'classics'. That coupled with the fact that the game is very stop start and difficult to figure out what is happening without access to replays/audio for the spectator don't help either.
The pricing is a big factor for families no doit also.
Like other sports there's a massive element of success breeding interest, which is great.
It's nor that long ago where busloads of folks were leaving Galway and other places in Connacht for Thomand Park on a regular basis.0 -
And how many of those other 11 are viable options for sustaining a rugby team?
The IRFU are going to target where they've the most chance of being successful and reaching the greatest numbers. As I said, they can only work within their budgets but are obviously making significant efforts to develop the game in non-traditional areas. It would be great if every school had a rugby programme and fielded a team but it's not realistic.
Sure you have no idea what’s viable Till you bring a camp into the school or a temp program. All avenues should be exhausted before saying it’s not viable.0 -
Wouldnt say at all rugby is lacking in match day experiences. Attendances in New Zealand, South Africa and Australia are affected even more by lack of away fans.Thrashssacre wrote: »I think most of us can agree that since going professional rugby has had steady growth in terms of viewership and participation. However for some reason this doesn’t seem to be translating into people actually going out to attend matches, attendances for big clubs have been fairly stagnant in the pro 14 for the last 7/8 seasons.
There’s certainly been growth in the attendance of Ireland games over the same period, so are the provinces and other clubs missing a trick somehow? Does rugby lack something in the match day experiences that other sports who regularly fill stadiums have?
I’ve been attending leinster matches since 2007, and always find it a pleasant experience. Even though some games can become a bit of a drag with a 30 point cushion by half time and a barley half full RDS.
Even in country’s where rugby would be the national sport such as wales, South Africa and New Zealand there seems to be a similar problem. So what is it about rugby that despite its growing popularity it’s attendance figures don’t seem to rise at least at club level?
Dont see how rugby is lacking in match day experience. What do you think its missing?
I dont think it does at all. The sport in most. Munster attendances are seen as worse because of the size of Thomond.Does rugby deliberately exclude some social groups?
Maybe this is the cause, an effort to engage working class communities in Dublin & Cork and expand into rural areas elsewhere may help.
I think rugby’s pretty inclusive in limerick so it would be interesting to see what their attendance is like and who it comprises of.
The sport very much engages with "working class communities" in Cork at least with the number of clubs fielding underage teams. Dublin isnt as much the case with a lot of clubs not fielding teams so many kids who may want to play dont have opportunity through clubs
I think that may just be you. I actually find their marketing is very good these days between radio ads etc.Personally, I think aside from social media Munster are shocking at marketing games. Rarely see or hear anything about games in thomond apart from facebook ads. But maybe that's just me.
The big one that a lot of hard core supporters don't seem to get is the pro14 is just not that attractive as a competition. It reminds me of the hurling league. People who are really into it will go to a good few games, everyone else will catch one or two. In general the average punter sees it as just an average competition, unless you get to the latter stages...and even then most people are not that bothered.
There is a kind of GAA style attitude towards the league with everything focused for many fans on the "championship"/European cup.
It is kind of bandwagon(though i hate that word for describing fans...)Ireland has a bandwagon culture. It's not limited to rugby. If the game isn't viewed as an event, it won't be well attended. Dublin vs Kerry in Croke Park attracted 24k spectators in the NFL last season. 31k people went to see our national football team play their nearest rivals in the Aviva recently. Those are our two biggest team sports comfortably yet fail to bring in crowds too.
But if it was a Heineken Cup match, an All Ireland game or a crunch WC qualifier, the stadiums would be full.
The amount of work done by the GAA and IRFU to develop their sports in non-traditional areas in recent years has been massive. It will be ignored by those with an agenda but it is taking place with a large degree of success too. That is not going to result in bums on seats when it comes to attendances though.
Until the Pro14 becomes a better product overall with consistent selections, rivalries and higher standards then the attendances aren't going to improve. And the league has gone backwards noticeably this season in both conferences. I would suggest that all of the top sides in the competition are possibly weaker right now than they were last season.
Pricing is almost certainly an issue too. It's a significant spend for someone to go to a match and bring a couple of kids with parking and food thrown in.
By and large irish fans have never really had big teams to follow playing week in week out regularly for several months of a season like in other countries so the routine of doing that isnt there for many.
The work done in "non traditional areas" may not have short term success in getting bums on seats but should have significant impact in the long term if the IRFU are doing their job right
They are doing a lot more work in these areas with club community officers etc. The workshops/blitzes are very much in so called working class techs/community schools.Bubblegummers wrote: »The IRFU don’t do enough in working class areas, I went to Terenure for school but from Crumlin- school was rugby but my area knew nothing about it. Workshops by the IRFU that we’re prevalent in middle to upper class school didn’t exist in working class techs or Community schools.
People grow up with little knowledge or interest as a result. My local area and friends who went to school locally in Crumlin will come to 6 nations games with me but when I’m in the RDS or Ravenhill they won’t.
There isn’t enough put in by the IRFU and thays factual in Dublin.
You cant say Leinster as beyond Dublin in most areas its the same as any other province.Rugby in Leinster is still very much the posh sport.
I'm not from a posh area and neither are any of the people I go to matches with. But we're very much the exception.
Rugby needs to break it's reputation as one for posh people. I think it's getting there but it does need to work harder in working class areas like where my family is from.
The only reason we ended up watching rugby is because it's a sports mad house in general.
Rugby has been breaking its reputation as one for posh people and likes of Trevor Brennan, Tadhg Furlong are just some who have shown its not a posh persons sport in Leinster
Exactly. We will only talk Leinster here but its same in other provinces as well. 15 years ago the tiers of leinster schools rugby were much smaller and few schools played. Number of clubs who have been established is quite good(could be better in some areas)If you go through the number of schools that now have rugby programmes compared to 15 years ago, there's a massive difference. Literally dozens of schools who didn't play previously. My former school was a CBS on the northside where there was never any team. They now field teams in the junior and senior cycles every season.
There's only so much they can do with their budget which needs to develop the sport throughout the entire island at both schools and club level. West Offaly, Tallaght RFC, Liberty Saints, Ratoath, Normans, North Meath, Midland Warriors...all clubs that were founded in recent years in non-traditional areas.
Wity respect to the Crumlin area, I see Drimnagh Castle are fielding rugby teams in recent seasons and there have also been rugby programmes introduced in the local primary school.
I dont think its necessarily needed.Why can't they let the referee explain every penalty like in the NFL?
It's not intrusive and you'd get used to it very quickly.
Just turn to the camera, switch on his mike, do the motions and say something like:
"Hands in the ruck, penalty to team X."
If that sounds too hokey, just open the mic to the stadium PA after each whistle.
You have a point about populations but Thomond was always the better option than Musgrave. I think that is making excuses as travel is same for all provincesThe largest provincial stadium Thomond Park 25,600 is in the second smallest city (Limerick 162,413 Metro population), Ravenhill 18,196 is in Belfast (671,559 Metro population), The RDS 18,500 is in the largest city population (1,347,359 Metro population), finally, the Sportsground (8,100) is in the smallest city (79,934).
For Thomond Park to fill from local people only they will need ~16% of the local population to attend, Sportsground will need ~10%, Ravenhill ~3% and the RDS 1%, for the Aviva to fill from locals 4% of the population would need to travel.
In my opinion, Munster are directly effected by the quality on the pitch and the time of the matches, not many people are going to make a 4 hour round trip from Cork for a meaningless game with second or third string players playing on a Friday evening, to be honest, I struggle to get motivated myself to make the half hour trip on a Friday evening. It might sound like blasphemy but Munster made a mistake in developing Thomond Park into their main ground.0 -
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Based on the school populations alone, a significant number of those schools would never be considered.Bubblegummers wrote: »And how many of those other 11 are viable options for sustaining a rugby team?
The IRFU are going to target where they've the most chance of being successful and reaching the greatest numbers. As I said, they can only work within their budgets but are obviously making significant efforts to develop the game in non-traditional areas. It would be great if every school had a rugby programme and fielded a team but it's not realistic.
Sure you have no idea what’s viable Till you bring a camp into the school or a temp program. All avenues should be exhausted before saying it’s not viable.
And exhausting all avenues on schools with a low chance of success, would be a waste of a limited budget.
They're far better to work on improving clubs in the area to provide an option for those students. And there are a few clubs in the vicinity operating already including Guinness RFC who field underage sides.0
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