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Corrib Gas

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  • 29-11-2018 9:24am
    #1
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭


    I read that the Corrib operators are planning to expand and re-drill the Corrib field. This makes my blood boil - One of the biggest crimes visited on the Irish state. They are now basically laughing at the Irish state.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/corrib-operator-eyes-expansion-and-taxfree-cash-37575461.html

    Fair play to all the protesters and locals who had the gumption to stay stop. In the face of state violence and media campaigns making them out to be loony lefts.

    How a country can give away its natural resources is beyond me ?
    Excuse me if this is posted in the wrong section.


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    #2
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,293 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    This is like a post from 2010 to be honest, and the true economics behind exploration and drilling has been explained multiple times on boards since then.

    Ultimately it comes down to 1 of 2 choices a) as a government you do all the exploration and extraction yourself, sink in billions to do this and keep all the profits but with no guarantee of any return at all - you may lose everything or b) you get the experts to do it on terms that they set, they take all the risks and potential loss and they get the bulk of the profit.

    There can be no trick of getting the experts to do it and then deciding halfway through to take over when it looks like they are on a winner.

    The good news is we have around 1000 individual field units off our coast. If some (which we've 'given away' on unfavourable terms) actually make money then we can do far better deals on the remaining ones.


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    #3
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    could or should sovereign wealth funds be used to better distribute the wealth created from such ventures?


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    #4
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    could or should sovereign wealth funds be used to better distribute the wealth created from such ventures?
    In terms of kind of a PPP with these oil companies to mitigate risk? Or do you mean more akin to Norway?

    If the latter, the risk is that we don't necessarily know that all of these deposits are viable for drilling.


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    #5
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    In terms of kind of a PPP with these oil companies to mitigate risk? Or do you mean more akin to Norway?

    If the latter, the risk is that we don't necessarily know that all of these deposits are viable for drilling.

    i have a very vague understanding of swf's, but i do think its something we should be investigating more, but it does sound like they work very well in countries such as norway


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    #6
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i have a very vague understanding of swf's, but i do think its something we should be investigating more, but it does sound like they work very well in countries such as norway
    They're just mini investment banks within the central bank - as with all investments, it's about making wise decisions to maximise return on investment. If a potential SWF wanted to purchase an oil drilling company, that might not be a bad investment... if a potential SWF wanted to speculate on drilling off the Irish coast (with no expertise in drilling) that might be a pretty bad RoI.

    Remember, the reason the drilling deals are "so bad" for Ireland is that these companies frequently go out, survey, attempt localised drills (etc.) spending vast amounts of capital... just to find that the deposit is not commercially viable to drill.


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    #7
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i have a very vague understanding of swf's, but i do think its something we should be investigating more, but it does sound like they work very well in countries such as norway


    https://isif.ie/


    We do it already. All we need to do is cut social welfare so that we can give the investment fund more of our hard-earned taxes.

    Oh, and we also need to ban any Denis O'Brien companies from getting money from ISIF, that is an essential component.


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    #8
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    blanch152 wrote:
    We do it already. All we need to do is cut social welfare so that we can give the investment fund more of our hard-earned taxes.


    And what would be the most likely outcome if we cut welfare?


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    #9
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,192 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    And what would be the most likely outcome if we cut welfare?

    Well then, we don't have the money to invest in oilfields. Simple as those are the choices we make.

    Norway worked to earn the money to spend on social welfare, we are not prepared to sacrifice to the same extent.


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    #10
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I'm disappointed the state is still looking at carbon extraction as a solution - whatever money is being handed over in tax breaks (intended or not!) for gas/oil exploration should be going to solar farms and the like. I don't just mention this on green grounds either - we've been chasing about failing to find significant reserves for decades now it feels like a huge waste of time and distracts from a more clear sighted sustainable energy policy.


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    #11
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,692 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Technology is what has changed. The Clair Ridge field, west of the Shetlands has only just opened after a 40 year wait since it was first discovered. The new facilities, which required capital investment in excess of £4.5 billion, are designed for 40 years of production.

    Could you imagine the outcries in Ireland if the State introduced cutbacks to finance a multi billion euro fossil fuel project? Even if it paid back multiples over its lifetime and gave the country a degree of energy independence, there wouldn't be a snowball's chance in hell of it ever coming to pass.

    Let the BPs, Cherons and Shells of this world at it and enjoy the tax take, the employment it brings to rural coastal communities and the skills associated with the jobs.


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    #12
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    The drillbit required to extract that oil and gas cannot be purchased, only leased, from a company part owned by shell, who developped the technology and that business model so another statoil or venezuela couldnt happen again to compete with them.

    Ireland physically could not extract that oil and gas out of the ground as a government entity, there is no way of doing it. Their best shot was the shell licence deal


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    #13
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Technology is what has changed.
    I believe it's fracking - correct?

    I'm not sure we should be doing that tbh.
    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    I'm disappointed the state is still looking at carbon extraction as a solution - whatever money is being handed over in tax breaks (intended or not!) for gas/oil exploration should be going to solar farms and the like. I don't just mention this on green grounds either - we've been chasing about failing to find significant reserves for decades now it feels like a huge waste of time and distracts from a more clear sighted sustainable energy policy.
    I agree - I don't have a major issue with the leasing of these reserves, but as above, I would be against it if the new technology that made them viable was fracking.

    ISIF should definitely be investing heavily in wind/solar/hydro - and IIRC they are heavily invested in wind (open to correction on that though).


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    #14
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,692 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I believe it's fracking - correct?

    I'm not sure we should be doing that tbh.

    No the ability to drill in deeper and more exposed waters is the key to these new fields becoming viable. The industry has moved on and can now operate in environments not previously economically viable. That's the key.

    Fracking has been around since the 1950's. Things have moved on radically in the offshore oil and gas industry since then.


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    #15
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    There's a good piece in the documentary Atlantic (or was it The Atlantic) where Justin Keating did a good deal for oil or gas exploration, change of government and Rambo gave it all away.


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    #16
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    For all the glorifying of Norway and their oil reserves, last time I was there petrol was about 20c a litre dearer at the pumps than here.


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    #17
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    For all the glorifying of Norway and their oil reserves, last time I was there petrol was about 20c a litre dearer at the pumps than here.

    Well, I filled the van today for around 1.46 diesel. We may as well own some well or other if we're getting rode on price. Might have some chance getting it back in a service.


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    #18
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Not to drag this off topic but wouldn't closing Moneypoint be the biggest one off contributor to avoid big bills and carbon credits?


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    #19
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Not to drag this off topic but wouldn't closing Moneypoint be the biggest one off contributor to avoid big bills and carbon credits?

    Its almost there. Check the eirgrid mix, 0% coal most days


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    #20
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    To mention as Shell's come up, Vermilion Energy owns the operating share in Corrib now after buying out SEPIL (Shell E&P Ireland).

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ccpc.ie/business/mergers-acquisitions/merger-notifications/m17049-vermilion-energy-shell-ep-ireland/&ved=2ahUKEwjz16TC-PreAhWQQRUIHZlxAAIQFjAJegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0g1kZMS_Fm3Dn-VvrQIxZt

    Pdf, hence the long link (merger notification in 2017, but the actual operational takeover is in late 2018).


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    #21
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    For all the glorifying of Norway and their oil reserves, last time I was there petrol was about 20c a litre dearer at the pumps than here.
    Norway includes their equivalent of motor tax (as we should), as well as a carbon tax and VAT in the fuel price.


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    #22
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    badtoro wrote: »
    Well, I filled the van today for around 1.46 diesel. We may as well own some well or other if we're getting rode on price. Might have some chance getting it back in a service.

    Its down to 141 diesil 143 petrol in some garages and reports of places even lower than that. Seems to be coming down after being overpriced for weeks.


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    #23
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,692 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Norway includes their equivalent of motor tax (as we should), as well as a carbon tax and VAT in the fuel price.

    In Norway you pay a traffic insurance tax via your car insurance, not on petrol prices.

    The fuel cost is made up of fuel cost, processing and margins, VAT CO2 tax, Gas tax.

    Norwegians extract huge quantities of green-house gas emitting fuels and get wealthy off the back of sales and taxes from these resources. It really is their dirty little secret and one which they are blind to any criticism on.


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    #24
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    badtoro wrote: »
    Well, I filled the van today for around 1.46 diesel. We may as well own some well or other if we're getting rode on price. Might have some chance getting it back in a service.

    You're going to the wrong place so. Think I paid about 10c a litre less than that yesterday.


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    #25
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Norwegians extract huge quantities of green-house gas emitting fuels and get wealthy off the back of sales and taxes from these resources. It really is their dirty little secret


    Secret????


    It's about the only thing anyone in Ireland knows about Norway.


    Well, that and all the Killary harbours, I suppose.


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    #26
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    badtoro wrote: »
    Well, I filled the van today for around 1.46 diesel. We may as well own some well or other if we're getting rode on price. Might have some chance getting it back in a service.

    You've been absolutely had so, average around me is around 1.38 (and falling) at the moment, saw a few places around 1.34 today


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    #27
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    In Norway you pay a traffic insurance tax via your car insurance, not on petrol prices.

    The fuel cost is made up of fuel cost, processing and margins, VAT CO2 tax, Gas tax.
    Road use tax

    https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat-and-duties/excise-duties/about-the-excise-duties/road-tax-on-fuel/


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    #28
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    6541 wrote: »
    Fair play to all the protesters and locals who had the gumption to stay stop. In the face of state violence and media campaigns making them out to be loony lefts.
    ?

    But, sure, the protesters were a mixture of loony environmentalists from wherever, and locals ostensibly concerned with safety.

    The protesters weren't especially looking to get a larger share of profits for the State.


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    #29
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    For all the glorifying of Norway and their oil reserves, last time I was there petrol was about 20c a litre dearer at the pumps than here.

    ?

    No-ones suggesting the main benefit of having all those oil reserves is cheaper petrol. Norway chooses to be a high tax country in order to pay for public services.

    They could subsidise petrol, but choose not to for environmental reasons also. Oil is their main cash-cow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

    Norway is a world leader for electric vehicle usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway

    You could argue the environmental thing is a bit hypocritical as they've no problem exporting oil and gas to other countries to create emmissions there.


    But in relation to the Corrib gas field, I think it could have mad sense to leave it under ground/sea, until its more profitable to extract it, and Ireland can do a better deal.


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