The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

j8wk2feszrnpao · 11-09-2018 08:45PM

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

I'll take that as a he's right so best make a joke

And you get people who say that it's just Pats fans that are sensitive :rolleyes:

Billy86 · 11-09-2018 08:47PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Rodgers has the handicap of playing under McCarthy

I'd have previously really just put it on Capers, but after last season and the other night without Rodgers... I'm starting to lean that way more and more. Worth noting:

Packers without Rodgers: 7-14-1
Patriots without Brady: 14-6

Foxtrol · 11-09-2018 08:49PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

My 2 cents on the GOAT argument.

I see a lot here about "based on pure talent." Tbh I think it's a shıtty, irrelevant argument. That's not what football, or any team sport, is about. The best player is the player who can contribute the best towards winning.
Tom Brady probably wouldn't even be in the top 3 in terms of talent in his generation. Does that matter? Not one bit. He has contributed more towards winning games that any other player has in history, and it's not even close. Not to mention he's done it in the era when every rule and league-wide strategy is designed to stop repeat winners. Has he benefited from favourable external factors (weak division, great head coach, etc)? Yes, he has, but he's so far ahead of 2nd best that's it's irrelevant.
Football is a results based business, and talent is only 1 attribute that contributes towards making a great player. Tom is so much more than his talent, and every former teammate of his will testify to that.

At the end of the day, you can say A-Rod, Marino, Elway or Young is the most talented, but who the fcuk cares? It's a losers argument. The greatest football player of all time is Tom Brady. Montana is a comfortable second, and until such time Aaron Rodgers wins 2 more Superbowls he doesn't even belong in the argument.

Historically the Patriots minus Brady win at a much higher % than Green Bay minus Rodgers, surely that shows a player that 'contributes best towards winning'.

Hazys · 11-09-2018 08:53PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'd have previously really just put it on Capers, but after last season and the other night without Rodgers... I'm starting to lean that way more and more. Worth noting:

Packers without Rodgers: 7-14-1
Patriots without Brady: 14-6

I'll throw this out as there for the people who are saying Rodgers as to me, the argument for Rodgers is similar for the argument Manning. Both teams were way worse with out them and Manning was more physically talented than Brady in terms of passing too.

Who had/has more talent/more deserving of GOAT recognition Manning or Rodgers?

BTW i was just throwing out the GOAT dictionary post for the laugh, i was being a bit naive not thinking that the conversation would kick off and with myself included lol...also its set in stone in the dictionary so we really are just discussing a mute point :pac:

thomond2006 · 11-09-2018 09:04PM

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1039601562149171200?s=19

Sickener for Atlanta.

Foxtrol · 11-09-2018 09:09PM

Actually seems like Tom had his own input on this:

https://twitter.com/Ian_OConnor/status/1038995707699580933?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1038995707699580933&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthespun.com%2Fnews%2Fthis-tom-brady-quote-about-aaron-rodgers-is-going-viral

j8wk2feszrnpao · 11-09-2018 09:09PM

Greg Olsen re-fractured his right foot again. Likely IR candidate. Big loss for Carolina.

Billy86 · 11-09-2018 09:11PM

Hazys wrote: »

I'll throw this out as there for the people who are saying Rodgers as to me, the argument for Rodgers is similar for the argument Manning. Both teams were way worse with out them and Manning was more physically talented than Brady in terms of passing too.

Who had/has more talent/more deserving of GOAT recognition Manning or Rodgers?

I don't think Manning was more physically better at passing than Brady, his biggest strength was between the years with the pre-snap stuff for the most part. I would put Rodgers above Manning personally, though I have a preference for peak. In terms of career, Manning might still be above him though it's a tough call.

Rodgers is every bit as consistent as those two (barring injuries), but a is better passer and a really good scrambler while the other two getting some yards on the ground tends to get a chuckle from commentators. I genuinely think he would have at least 3 rings if not for Dom Capers, but that's a different matter again I guess.

As I said, for me Brady is the GOAT but Rodgers has played on a level (only slightly!) higher than anyone else, which I think is a fair assessment.

EDIT:

BTW i was just throwing out the GOAT dictionary post for the laugh, i was being a bit naive not thinking that the conversation would kick off and with myself included lol...also its set in stone in the dictionary so we really are just discussing a mute point

You knew what you were doing! You opened Pandora's Box and it's only week feckin' 1, you horrible b@stard you!

j8wk2feszrnpao · 11-09-2018 09:13PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Actually seems like Tom had his own input on this:

https://twitter.com/Ian_OConnor/status/1038995707699580933?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1038995707699580933&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthespun.com%2Fnews%2Fthis-tom-brady-quote-about-aaron-rodgers-is-going-viral

That's such a bizarre thing for Brady to say; he's never humble when speaking about another player :eek:

eagle eye · 11-09-2018 09:21PM

I'd agree with you but there is an asterisk and that says regular season only.

He has had a couple of great playoff games but he has never been close to his regular season self in the playoffs.

Foxtrol · 11-09-2018 09:22PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

That's such a bizarre thing for Brady to say; he's never humble when speaking about another player :eek:

It is possible to be humble and telling the truth at the same time

j8wk2feszrnpao · 11-09-2018 09:30PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is possible to be humble and telling the truth at the same time

It is. Just as it is possible to be humble and not tell the truth

TOss Sweep · 11-09-2018 09:42PM

I have said it before and I will say it again the GOAT argument is stupid.

Brady, Montana right now are up there on top just the two of them but only because they are backed with wins.

As QBs go you wont find better QBs outside Brady, Rodgers who are still play and Montana and Manning who are not. For me all 4 of them are in a league of their own.

You put all 4 of them with that Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick team and they all produce the same amount of Soup Bowl wins for you. Montana and Brady have been lucky to have great coaches behind them also. And the two Bills were lucky to have 2 of the greatest QBs of all time. But all 4 of those guys if given the same level playing field will give you close to the same results.

You are only as good as the team around you and some guys will stand on top of the pile and scrap wins and prove themselves like Rodgers the other night but there is only so much scraping you can do.

Billy86 · 11-09-2018 10:00PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd agree with you but there is an asterisk and that says regular season only.

He has had a couple of great playoff games but he has never been close to his regular season self in the playoffs.

If we're talking about Manning, that is true. If we're talking about Rodgers, not so much. He has the highest rating of any QB ever in the postseason if I recall - the problem is that when he is anything short of top quality, we lose and that's that. Literally the one exception to that that I can think of was against the Bears in the 2010 conference game, and most people forget that game because we won. That is the only playoff game the Packers have won with Rodgers where his rating was below 90 (where they are 1-4) in his entire career - by comparison the Pats are 10-7 with Brady below that same number.

Four of Rodgers seven playoff losses have also come when the opposition scored 37+ points, and in 17 playoff games his defense has given up that number 4 times (29% of the time). Brady's defenses in 38 games have only given up that much 2 times (5% of games), and they lost both of them. When your defense is six times more likely to get blown out dramatically, it's going to hurt your chances of picking up rings.

The other three losses included the double hail mary comeback at the buzzer vs Arizona that our defense took all of two plays to blow after 2 plays of overtime, and the infamous Seattle one which is one of the biggest defensive/ST collapses in the history of the league. And then the loss against SF where Rodgers himself had a pretty decent game.

The Patriots defense during last year's Superbowl was a good example of what Rodgers has tended to have on the other side of the ball, and Capers' shortcomings were even more apparent there as a mobile QB who is also decent at passing, or a very smart QB have been able to abuse his defenses since around 2011. He could beat up on the nobody's all day, but a QB who knew what they were doing would consistently shred him. I would need to find a link, but there is a lengthy enough list of playoff records broken by Dom Capers' defenses down the years, and they're not the good kind of records.

None of that is to take away from Brady whatsoever, but it is to point out that absolutely nobody was winning Superbowls with what Rodgers -whose performances in the playoffs have been very good by any measure- has had on the other side of the ball for a good seven years now, and that is ultimately what has cost GB all these years.

JaMarcus · 11-09-2018 10:08PM

Any games in danger of being cancelled this week? A few college games have been cancelled outright as campuses shut down in preparation for the hurricane.

Oat23 · 11-09-2018 10:15PM

davetherave wrote: »

Sorry, you misspelt Sexy Rexy

This is a guy who got to a superbowl in his first full season, and is one of only 4 Bears QB's to start all 16 games in the last 36 years.

The undisputed S.O.A.T.

Oat23 · 11-09-2018 10:17PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

My 2 cents on the GOAT argument.

I see a lot here about "based on pure talent." Tbh I think it's a shıtty, irrelevant argument. That's not what football, or any team sport, is about. The best player is the player who can contribute the best towards winning.
Tom Brady probably wouldn't even be in the top 3 in terms of talent in his generation. Does that matter? Not one bit. He has contributed more towards winning games that any other player has in history, and it's not even close. Not to mention he's done it in the era when every rule and league-wide strategy is designed to stop repeat winners. Has he benefited from favourable external factors (weak division, great head coach, etc)? Yes, he has, but he's so far ahead of 2nd best that's it's irrelevant.
Football is a results based business, and talent is only 1 attribute that contributes towards making a great player. Tom is so much more than his talent, and every former teammate of his will testify to that.

At the end of the day, you can say A-Rod, Marino, Elway or Young is the most talented, but who the fcuk cares? It's a losers argument. The greatest football player of all time is Tom Brady. Montana is a comfortable second, and until such time Aaron Rodgers wins 2 more Superbowls he doesn't even belong in the argument.

I bet you'd be eyeing Tom as Gisele throws herself at ya.

TOss Sweep · 11-09-2018 10:37PM

JaMarcus wrote: »

Any games in danger of being cancelled this week? A few college games have been cancelled outright as campuses shut down in preparation for the hurricane.

If any the Falcons or Titans depending on if the storm fizzes out or take a turn. Right now its going to fizzle out over the eastern side of TN but they said it could fizzle out of Atlanta. But NC and northern tip of SC will take the brunt of it.

Itssoeasy · 11-09-2018 10:45PM

On the hurricane the panthers would have been the ones most effected and they are away next weekend. It's forecast to stall once it hits land so I can see why college teams in the area will be dealing with substantial volumes of rain.

Onecoolcookie · 11-09-2018 10:49PM

Deion Jones to IR for the Falcons with Keanu Neal already out for the season that's a disaster for them

TOss Sweep · 11-09-2018 10:52PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

On the hurricane the panthers would have been the ones most effected and they are away next weekend. It's forecast to stall once it hits land so I can see why college teams in the area will be dealing with substantial volumes of rain.

North Carolina will be in a state of Emergency and they reckon that will extend from Thursday into Saturday. Which means no travel. Most of the travelling teams would have flown in Thursday or Friday. The also reckon this storm strong winds and rain could go in land. Going to hit the coast at Cat 4 and push in land as Cat 3 and fizzle out over land in TN or GA. Still going to bring heavy winds and rain.

Guffy · 11-09-2018 11:43PM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I have said it before and I will say it again the GOAT argument is stupid.

Brady, Montana right now are up there on top just the two of them but only because they are backed with wins.

As QBs go you wont find better QBs outside Brady, Rodgers who are still play and Montana and Manning who are not. For me all 4 of them are in a league of their own.

You put all 4 of them with that Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick team and they all produce the same amount of Soup Bowl wins for you. Montana and Brady have been lucky to have great coaches behind them also. And the two Bills were lucky to have 2 of the greatest QBs of all time. But all 4 of those guys if given the same level playing field will give you close to the same results.

You are only as good as the team around you and some guys will stand on top of the pile and scrap wins and prove themselves like Rodgers the other night but there is only so much scraping you can do.

What happens if you put Brady with Mike McCarthy?

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-09-2018 12:39AM

Guffy wrote: »

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I have said it before and I will say it again the GOAT argument is stupid.

Brady, Montana right now are up there on top just the two of them but only because they are backed with wins.

As QBs go you wont find better QBs outside Brady, Rodgers who are still play and Montana and Manning who are not. For me all 4 of them are in a league of their own.

You put all 4 of them with that Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick team and they all produce the same amount of Soup Bowl wins for you. Montana and Brady have been lucky to have great coaches behind them also. And the two Bills were lucky to have 2 of the greatest QBs of all time. But all 4 of those guys if given the same level playing field will give you close to the same results.

You are only as good as the team around you and some guys will stand on top of the pile and scrap wins and prove themselves like Rodgers the other night but there is only so much scraping you can do.

What happens if you put Brady with Mike McCarthy?

Lombardi trophy gets paraded through the streets of Dublin to thank us for the genetic gifts we have given to football.

Billy86 · 12-09-2018 12:56AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Lombardi trophy gets paraded through the streets of Dublin to thank us for the genetic gifts we have given to football.

Not if Capers had anything to do with it.

I said it years back that he could have all pros across the roster and make them look average. A few scoffed at it, we then invested heavily in the secondary because our guys there looked very average, and so we let two prominent guys walks. Much Hyde was one, and he went AP last year in his first season away from us. Another was Caseys Hayward, now a back to back all pro in the two years since leaving.

The guy was Jeff Fisher levels of awful and a perfect combination made in a lab of Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Young, Warner, Marino and Elway with the legs of Vick would not have won any Superbowl with him on the other side of the ball.

There's a reason every august in the packers thread going back years you'll find me reminding everyone we're not winning anything because Capers will simply find a way to lose in the playoffs. And he never disappointed... here's hoping Pettiness improves that! Well maybe not for you, but...

Hazys · 12-09-2018 02:03AM

TOss Sweep · 12-09-2018 02:21AM

Guffy wrote: »

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I have said it before and I will say it again the GOAT argument is stupid.

Brady, Montana right now are up there on top just the two of them but only because they are backed with wins.

As QBs go you wont find better QBs outside Brady, Rodgers who are still play and Montana and Manning who are not. For me all 4 of them are in a league of their own.

You put all 4 of them with that Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick team and they all produce the same amount of Soup Bowl wins for you. Montana and Brady have been lucky to have great coaches behind them also. And the two Bills were lucky to have 2 of the greatest QBs of all time. But all 4 of those guys if given the same level playing field will give you close to the same results.

You are only as good as the team around you and some guys will stand on top of the pile and scrap wins and prove themselves like Rodgers the other night but there is only so much scraping you can do.

What happens if you put Brady with Mike McCarthy?

You get the same as A-Aron a great QB struggling to win Superbowls because the supporting cast and coach can only get them so far. My point is they are both future HOF QBs and both 2 of the best of all time.

BonnieSituation · 12-09-2018 08:07AM

That was some lovely reading of a bus journey there lads.
Keep it up.

Jolly Red Giant · 12-09-2018 04:41PM

There is no perfect QB - all have good traits and poor traits - the best QBs can maximise what they do best and minimise the impact of their inadequacies.

it is impossible to compare QBs from different eras - it is pointless trying to gauge who was better between Johnny Unitas, John Elway and Tom Brady (and I am only picking these as examples). Unitas played in an era where football was run first, Elway when DBs could beat the daylights out of a WR and Brady when DBs can't touch a WR but brain rather than brawn is the key.

- Dan Marino was tough, was incredibly accurate with a medium-deep ball and could thread a needle better than any QB. He had one of the quickest releases of any QB of his time or since and rarely got sacked.
- Joe Montana had great instincts, very accurate with short-medium throws and had great timing which was crucial for those types of throws. He also had an ability to keep his team relaxed and focussed.
- Johnny Unitas was the first real passing QB. He wasn’t particularly accurate, or particularly talented when compared to others – but he had incredible production throughout his career.
- John Elway had a cannon for an arm, was not that accurate but made great decisions. He could scramble as good as the best and was the QB you wanted leading your team looking for a fourth quarter comeback. If you are comparing QBs Elway and Staubach were very similar.
- Peyton Manning’s was at his best pre-snap – he could read defences and adjust – it meant he was a step ahead of the defence when the ball was snapped, and defences had difficulty catching up.
- Aaron Rodgers has a high football IQ, can read defences, can pass from the pocket and can scramble and make plays. He has a strong arm and is very accurate.
- Otto Graham could make every throw from a bomb to a finesse pass and was great at escaping pressure. He knew where he wanted the ball to go and it usually got there.
- Tom Brady – Belichick has listed three things that make brady a great QB – his strong work ethic, his ability to think strategically when the ball is snapped and the play is developing and his ability to focus on short-term goals – he works week to week and when the game is over he forgets about it and moves onto the next game. Brady keeps things simple and it works.
- Brett Farve had an ability to throw the ball from anywhere on the field to anywhere on the field. He wasn’t very accurate but had great pocket awareness and the ability to escape a pass rush - and he was incredibly tough.
- Roger Staubach could scramble and could win games. He was not very accurate, but he was a clutch player who could win games he had no right to win.

All different - all effective. Depending on the scenario you could pick any one of the above and have the right QB for the job.

In my opinion the golden era of the QB was the 1980s - there is a long list - starting with the QB class of 1983 (along with the stars it produced one very good back-up Gary Kubiak, who could probably have started for several teams)

John Elway
Jim Kelly
Tony Eason
Ken O'Brien
Dan Marino

The 1980s also saw the following in action -

Joe Montana
Dan Fouts
Warren Moon
Steve Young
Randall Cunningham
Boomer Esiason
Bernie Kosar
Joe Theismann
Phil Simms
Ken Anderson
Danny White
Terry Bradshaw
Jim McMahon
Jim Everett
Steve DeBerg

Troy Aikman even sneaks in after being drafted in 1989.

This is not an exhaustive list and a couple of these were on the downside of their career in the 1980s but there was a serious number of very good QBs who played throughout the 1980s that in my opinion it has never been matched before or since. I became a fan of American football in the early 1980s and the QB play was a sight to behold. Given the way the rules have changed and the fact that it is now a much more pass-friendly game it would be interesting to see what the 1980s QBs could have done in the modern era.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 12-09-2018 04:54PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Historically the Patriots minus Brady win at a much higher % than Green Bay minus Rodgers, surely that shows a player that 'contributes best towards winning'.

Irrelevant. His body of work is enough that things like that do not matter at all. What he has accomplished is more than enough.

Itssoeasy · 12-09-2018 05:07PM

The state of Georgia is imposing a state of emergency because the track of Hurricane Florence has shifted slightly south and looks like it will affect Georgia. This is important as the Falcons are playing at home this sunday so it may disrupt the game.

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

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