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So who's going to see the Pope?

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  • Options
    #3812
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Freedom from the rules, sacraments, lies etc, really frees the mind and allows people think for themselves. Faith does not have to be tied to the evilness of the RCC. More people are waking up to life without the RCC but retain their faith. Anyone I know that has freed themselves while keeping their faith are much happier in themselves. A weight has been lifted and they feel the enjoyment of life. More people should give it a go.


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    #3813
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Freedom from the rules, sacraments, lies etc, really frees the mind and allows people think for themselves. Faith does not have to be tied to the evilness of the RCC. More people are waking up to life without the RCC but retain their faith. Anyone I know that has freed themselves while keeping their faith are much happier in themselves. A weight has been lifted and they feel the enjoyment of life. More people should give it a go.

    Well said. No one needs an organised religion like the CC to have faith and believe do they?


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    #3814
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Carsanal wrote: »
    Was it not last weekend there gone no?
    Or this weekend?

    Last weekend but it will never happen again. Literally a once in a lifetime occasion for anyone under the age of 39. Probably most of the population.


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    #3815
    Carsanal
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Carsanal


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Last weekend but it will never happen again. Literally a once in a lifetime occasion for anyone under the age of 39. Probably most of the population.

    I wasn't going anyway. **** the church and everything about it.

    Science is the way forward not some book that some lad wrote at some stage and never thought this would have happened


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    #3816
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,377 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Bishop Brady when he was an ordinary priest swore two young boys to secrecy which in turn allowed Fr Brendan Smyth to carry on abusing other children, if the state is responsible sure there was no need for Brady to swear these children to secrecy. See how it works.

    No doubt. But we have all manner of child abuse outside the clergy as well. We have elder abuse on the increase and getting worse in this country today. In front of our eyes. The state is hopeless in dealing with these cases, what did Mr. Varadkar do about this on his watch as minister for health.

    Don't let the church off the hook, but I'm also concerned about what the authorities are at today, and into the future and not totally fixated on fighting the last war. Bad and all as it was.


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  • Options
    #3817
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Well said. No one needs an organised religion like the CC to have faith and believe do they?

    People generally fear change. If they change by forgetting about the RCC for a while and then later realise that they miss its evilness, they can always go back and ask for forgiveness and all will be forgotten about. They just need to take that difficult first step to change.


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    #3818
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    No doubt. But we have all manner of child abuse outside the clergy as well. We have elder abuse on the increase and getting worse in this country today. In front of our eyes. The state is hopeless in dealing with these cases, what did Mr. Varadkar do about this on his watch as minister for health.

    Don't let the church off the hook, but I'm also concerned about what the authorities are at today, and into the future and not totally fixated on fighting the last war. Bad and all as it was.

    What you refer to as the last war is the current war that faces the victims daily.


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    #3819
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Exactly...I think that's the point being made. It was widely known what happened in mother and care homes at the time. We have to look at ourselves for letting it happen as opposed to blaming everything on the church (naturally they have significant blame to take).

    There's far more outlets now for people to report their concerns, and people are far more aware of their rights now. When the priests and bishops, the most respected and connected people around did wrong, who would people believe?

    Was there a wilful ignorance? Most definitely. Did people do all sorts of shameful things? Yes. But where did the source of this morality come from? The same place that stands against any moves for equality and progression.


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    #3820
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Arthur Daley wrote:
    No doubt. But we have all manner of child abuse outside the clergy as well. We have elder abuse on the increase and getting worse in this country today. In front of our eyes. The state is hopeless in dealing with these cases, what did Mr. Varadkar do about this on his watch as minister for health.

    Actually elder abuse is dealt with when it becomes known. Difficult to swear an adult abuse victim to secrecy the rest of your comment is the usual whataboutery that is becoming all to common here.


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    #3821
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,377 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    the usual whataboutery that is becoming all to common here.

    You know what I kinda agree. This thread is just about the most pointless 'discussion' one could engage in.


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    #3822
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,833 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Do the Roman Catholics here still believe the pope has a connection with God, that he is 'God's representative on Earth'?


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    #3823
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Arthur Daley wrote:
    You know what I kinda agree. This thread is just about the most pointless 'discussion' one could engage in.


    Yet here you are..


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    #3824
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,867 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    The state at the time was just as much to blame.

    No it wasn't. What the nuns did was illegal.

    JeffKenna wrote: »
    It was widely known what happened in mother and care homes at the time.

    Right. So you're saying that

    Forced adoptions
    Baby selling
    Neglect and malnourishment
    Illegal unrecorded burials

    were all widely known about? FFS the last one only became known about within the last few years because of Catherine Corless.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #3825
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    batgoat wrote: »
    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    Her function was to welcome a guest on behalf of the goverment, not attack him.

    The Tuam scandal is something the church very much so deserve to be attacked on(doesn't seem like an attack btw). Consider the fact that Corless was attacked by numerous pieces of Catholic media including smear campaigns against her findings. Get your priorities in order.

    The Vatican and it's loyal followers always attack the messenger first. When the messenger provides the evidence, they go silent and stick their heads in the sand. I think they believe ignoring the problem will make it go away. Now they think regular apploogies will make it go away.

    Corless is an amazing woman but I know she is hated by many people. Its so warped.


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    #3826
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,833 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    The Vatican and it's loyal followers always attack the messenger first. When the messenger provides the evidence, they go silent and stick their heads in the sand. I think they believe ignoring the problem will make it go away. Now they think regular apploogies will make it go away.

    Corless is an amazing woman but I know she is hated by many people. Its so warped.

    The main man, Francis himself, is a prime example of that.


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    #3827
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    No one said you were. However your family were.

    My family were good and decent people, and this remark is a sad reflection on how far you are prepared to go to shift blame from the people who actually committed these atrocities simply because they are part of the same religion as you.


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    #3828
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    My family were good and decent people, and this remark is a sad reflection on how far you are prepared to go to shift blame from the people who actually committed these atrocities simply because they are part of the same religion as you.

    It was also a different time in terms of the amount of information people were able to access, who controlled that information in this country and how it was presented to people in terms of narrative.


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    #3829
    Dannyriver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    No doubt. But we have all manner of child abuse outside the clergy as well. We have elder abuse on the increase and getting worse in this country today. In front of our eyes. The state is hopeless in dealing with these cases, what did Mr. Varadkar do about this on his watch as minister for health.

    Don't let the church off the hook, but I'm also concerned about what the authorities are at today, and into the future and not totally fixated on fighting the last war. Bad and all as it was.

    That conversation is for another thread surely


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    #3830
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    It was also a different time in terms of the amount of information people were able to access, who controlled that information in this country and how it was presented to people in terms of narrative.

    It's also almost impossible to overstate just how revered the whole clerical class was: I was also a child but my memory of the way people spoke of priests and nuns was that they would always have presumed they were acting from the best of motives even when they disliked the actions themselves.

    It's cynical in the extreme to use this past naivety to justify the guilty parties escaping punishment. People then did not know a fraction of what went on. When they found out they were (mostly) disgusted and the church's loss of prestige is both the result and the evidence that they did not know.


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    #3831
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

    Did you know that years ago the priest would read out from the pulpit the contributions everyone made to the church?
    Sardine wrote: »
    It's also down to the fact that there are events on here all the time now, and there's tonnes of stuff to do for young people, unlike in 1979. Most people probably would just rather stay in looking at their phones rather than do anything at all these days too.
    In 1979 I doubt they were all good practising Catholics that showed up, but it was a massive event and people would have just gone for the hell of it. Nowadays who hasn't been to a stadium gig or something similar?
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I went in 79 to see a million people in a field. It was cool.

    I couldn't be ar** going 30 miles to see 400,000 in a field.
    And as someone that has lived 30 odd miles from Knock I have never ever set foot in the basilica.
    And thankfully someone decided to finally bypass the bloody place.
    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Never had a teacher lay a finger on me or any of the other people I went to school with during the 80s or 90s.

    Went to primary in 70s, early 80s and saw headmaster use the rod.
    Got it myself for being "bold" but saw others getting for getting sums and spellings wrong.

    In secondary school saw teachers slap and drag kids even post 1982.

    Saying that some of the ones that got hit were utter shytes and there was actually something gratifying seeing them get slapped around.

    I think if you are a pri*ck then you get what you deserve.
    yrreg0850 wrote: »
    The visit to the Arus was On Saturday was a visit of one head of state (The Vatican) to another (Michael D).
    On this occasion did Ms Zapone as the official Government representitive, breach protocol?
    Ms Zapone badgerd the Pope who was there as a head of a state and, not head of a church.
    She asked him to contribute towards the cost of the Tuam babies scandal .

    Maybe she should ask him to contribute towards some of the costs she is foisting on the Irish.
    Talk about two fooking spanners.
    They deserve each other.


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    #3832
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,358 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    jmayo wrote: »
    Did you know that years ago the priest would read out from the pulpit the contributions everyone made to the church?

    That happened not 10 years ago in a parish in Kildare.
    The names of the parish envelopes were pinned to the wall with the amount donated.
    Although this was from a parish priest who took collections at funerals so it doesnt surprise me.

    If you're from a certain parish you will know the priest Fr B. L. - don't want to name anyone and fall foul of moderation. Not sure of boards policy


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    #3833
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,126 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    jmayo wrote: »
    Did you know that years ago the priest would read out from the pulpit the contributions everyone made to the church?
    I am old enough to remember that. Public shaming for poor people. what a delightful organisation the RCC is.


    jmayo wrote: »


    Went to primary in 70s, early 80s and saw headmaster use the rod.
    Got it myself for being "bold" but saw others getting for getting sums and spellings wrong.

    In secondary school saw teachers slap and drag kids even post 1982.

    Saying that some of the ones that got hit were utter shytes and there was actually something gratifying seeing them get slapped around.

    I think if you are a pri*ck then you get what you deserve.


    The abolished corporal punishment in 1982 i think or maybe it was 81. It had stopped by the time i got to 6th class. I think i preferred getting a smack than having to write out lines. I dont remember any violence in secondary school but the school chaplain was well known for having a vicious temper.


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    #3834
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    You really can't absolve society like that, everyone knew but no one did anything because it didn't suit Irish society at the time. And it doesn't suit Irish society now to acknowledge it's own failings because you'll end up pointing the finger at complicit parents and grandparents. You really don't think people didn't know who was doing the laundry when the sheets and tablecloths were dropped off at these institutions?

    The churches abuses did not exist in a vacuum. People at the time knew right from wrong, they just didn't care or think these people important. It wasn't the church that made them ignore the abuses, they did that themselves.

    The society at the time carries a certain culpability for that.

    Actually I think the Irish state does bear some responsibility and before anyone jumps at me I am very anti church institution and have been even before it was popular opinion.

    The Irish state did not want to deal with single parent families, did not want to deal with delinquency, did not want to deal with poverty, education or healthcare.
    The church handled that and the Irish state turned a very blind eye.

    People did reports on the industrial schools, but they were shelved.

    Now was it the people were afraid of the church ?
    Possibly as the church could ruin you.

    Was it that they didn't care as they were taught not to care about some people as they were seen as fallen and lesser ?
    Possibly as years of education by the church had ingrained attitudes in people who were now in positions of power.

    Ordinary people put their daughters into these homes all because of the "shame".
    I know of a case where a family did not press charges against a teacher that had affectively killed their child all because of the intervention of the local priest.
    Almost everyone meekly took it from the teachers, the priests, the authorities.

    I know of two brothers who were about to finish primary school at 13 and 14 who didn't take it.
    They had often been beaten by their teacher, but finally one day they had enough, they turned on him and beat the livin shyte out of him.
    When the local priest challenged the parents, the father told him go fook himself.
    And rightly so.

    I think it suits some to place all the blame on the church almost like it suits Germans to have placed all the blame on the evil Nazis.
    But these organisations do not ever operate in a vacuum, they have to be let by wider society to gain control and get continued support.
    Now I am not saying the RCC is on the level of the Nazi party, but I do see similarities in how a state and people have reacted after the truth has come out.

    I told story here earlier about case in Listowel in 1946 where the parish priest refused to let the body of a dead woman into his church because she had a child out of wedlock.
    One man stood up to him and thankfully he was backed up by others.

    But that was rare.
    He could have been ruined, his hackney business could have been blacklisted, he could be boycotted all at the behest of the priest.

    That happened in Fethard-on-Sea in 1950s all due to the local priest and bishop deciding that people needed to be kept on a leash.

    Yes the same place that the scumbag sean fortune was to operate decades later preying on children.

    BTW just because the state and individual people turned a blind eye to some things in no ways absolves the church and it's institutions for their crimes or for their culpability in terms of compensation.

    And michael woods should have been made eat his deal.


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    #3835
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,833 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jmayo wrote: »
    Actually I think the Irish state does bear some responsibility and before anyone jumps at me I am very anti church institution and have been even before it was popular opinion.

    The Irish state did not want to deal with single parent families, did not want to deal with delinquency, did not want to deal with poverty, education or healthcare.
    The church handled that and the Irish state turned a very blind eye.

    People did reports on the industrial schools, but they were shelved.

    Now was it the people were afraid of the church ?
    Possibly as the church could ruin you.

    Was it that they didn't care as they were taught not to care about some people as they were seen as fallen and lesser ?
    Possibly as years of education by the church had ingrained attitudes in people who were now in positions of power.

    Ordinary people put their daughters into these homes all because of the "shame".
    I know of a case where a family did not press charges against a teacher that had affectively killed their child all because of the intervention of the local priest.
    Almost everyone meekly took it from the teachers, the priests, the authorities.

    I know of two brothers who were about to finish primary school at 13 and 14 who didn't take it.
    They had often been beaten by their teacher, but finally one day they had enough, they turned on him and beat the livin shyte out of him.
    When the local priest challenged the parents, the father told him go fook himself.
    And rightly so.

    I think it suits some to place all the blame on the church almost like it suits Germans to have placed all the blame on the evil Nazis.
    But these organisations do not ever operate in a vacuum, they have to be let by wider society to gain control and get continued support.
    Now I am not saying the RCC is on the level of the Nazi party, but I do see similarities in how a state and people have reacted after the truth has come out.

    I told story here earlier about case in Listowel in 1946 where the parish priest refused to let the body of a dead woman into his church because she had a child out of wedlock.
    One man stood up to him and thankfully he was backed up by others.

    But that was rare.
    He could have been ruined, his hackney business could have been blacklisted, he could be boycotted all at the behest of the priest.

    That happened in Fethard-on-Sea in 1950s all due to the local priest and bishop deciding that people needed to be kept on a leash.

    Yes the same place that the scumbag sean fortune was to operate decades later preying on children.

    BTW just because the state and individual people turned a blind eye to some things in no ways absolves the church and it's institutions for their crimes or for their culpability in terms of compensation.

    And michael woods should have been made eat his deal.

    Nobody has said the state or society doesn't bear some responsibility. Some people did turn a blind eye and some facilitated these people.

    It is the attempt to dilute the overwhelming blame for what happened being on the Roman Catholic church is what the problem is here.
    They still have their apologists and reverent facilitators though and they must be challenged anytime they try to dilute or deflect.


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    #3836
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,867 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    jmayo wrote: »
    Saying that some of the ones that got hit were utter shytes and there was actually something gratifying seeing them get slapped around.

    Yeah and then usually they passed it on to other pupils, with interest.

    It created a culture of violence and fear in the schools, my primary school was certainly like that and an element of it carried over into secondary. I was in first year when corporal punishment was abolished, although compliance with that took longer. Of course the shouting and roaring and belittling never went away. I'd be disgusted if any teacher behaved like that in my kids' classroom now.

    The teachers could hardly be surprised or complain that bullies were whacking kids when the teachers were whacking kids.

    Maybe she should ask him to contribute towards some of the costs she is foisting on the Irish.

    Not sure what you mean here. If it's that the secrets of Tuam (and, no doubt, other places) should stay buried then that really suits the abuse cover uppers among the RCC, doesn't it?

    Truth and justice are rarely easy or cheap to obtain, especially not when powerful interests wish to prevent it.

    Anyway the Bon Secours have plenty of money. They should pay.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #3837
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean here. If it's that the secrets of Tuam (and, no doubt, other places) should stay buried then that really suits the abuse cover uppers among the RCC, doesn't it?

    Truth and justice are rarely easy or cheap to obtain, especially not when powerful interests wish to prevent it.

    Anyway the Bon Secours have plenty of money. They should pay.

    I agree. It actually disturbs me that some people would be happy if justice was not done for the 800 Tuam babies in the septic tank. Corless has been fighting against the tide for years on this story. For years. A brave brave woman. Everyone should be supporting her and pushing for the truth. Instead they want just want it forgotten. They don't want to know the truth. They are as bad as the nuns. It's quite sickening actually.
    Ms Corless said the announcement was "a great relief" as it provided the truth to survivors who have brothers and sisters buried there.

    "It is great for them to know that these children will finally be given a proper burial," she said.

    Ms Corless said she had been "blocked on all sides" while conducting her research, with no help from the Catholic Church or authorities locally.

    Blocked on all sides.


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    #3838
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    ...

    Not sure what you mean here. If it's that the secrets of Tuam (and, no doubt, other places) should stay buried then that really suits the abuse cover uppers among the RCC, doesn't it?

    Truth and justice are rarely easy or cheap to obtain, especially not when powerful interests wish to prevent it.

    Anyway the Bon Secours have plenty of money. They should pay.

    Don't you fooking dare try and claim I want to hide anything done by the catholic church.
    I take great umbrage that you are making that inference.

    If you are bothered you can read my posts on the thread concerning Tuam revelations.
    And I think Catherine Corless deserves a huge amount of respect and admiration for her tenacity in revealing the utter horror of that place.

    To paraphrase a famous quote ... She has done this society some service.

    My point above was I am equally sick of Zappone and her shyte as I am of the joker from Argentina who is more of the same as regards the church ignoring it's past and maybe even it's present.

    Just because I can't stand the pope and all he stands for doesn't mean I have to like that fecking interloper.

    I believe Zappone is a dangerous fecker with her own agenda who wants to foist hundreds, maybe thousands of so called minors (and we know half of them are young men from God knows where) on the Irish people.
    And if past experiences by other peoples and states is anything to go by some of them would be quite at home in the catholic church with their wanton disregard for women and children.
    She is one of those "modern liberals" who whilst they want to get rid of one religious institution are somehow enthralled with believers of an even worse variety.

    BTW if she was doing it right she should have badgered him about the reparations for every one of the mother and baby homes, the victims of the sale of babies to the US, the christian brother schools that went into trust to avoid them having to pay their victims.
    Oh and to revoke the deal done with that dodgy god botherer fianna fail minister that sold theIirish taxpayer down the river to protect his church.
    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    I agree. It actually disturbs me that some people would be happy if justice was not done for the 800 Tuam babies in the septic tank. Corless has been fighting against the tide for years on this story. For years. A brave brave woman. Everyone should be supporting her and pushing for the truth. Instead they want just want it forgotten. They don't want to know the truth. They are as bad as the nuns. It's quite sickening actually.

    Blocked on all sides.

    Don't you fooking dare try and lump me in with deniers and apologists.

    As I said above Catherine Corless is an example of what can be good in this society.


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    #3839
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I think when people are confused by the level of vitriol for the church, they're forgetting the hypocrisy element. The church isn't just any institution, it's an institution which claimed to be the sole voice of "good" and "right" in society. Priests - often the same priests who practically flayed kids alive with their belts or worse behind closed doors - were the ones who stood up in front of (and above) the masses (pun intended) to say "you're all wretched sinners and you should be ashamed of yourselves" for the 'crimes' of having sexual thoughts or entertaining certain political notions.

    All child abuse is obviously a bad thing, but it's obviously more infuriating when it's perpetrated by people who, through the other side of their forked tongues, are saying "we're the righteous ones, do what you're told by us or you're bad people".

    The Israel-Palestine conflict and peoples' reaction to it is a decent parallel - why do the actions of Israel piss people off exponentially more than any of the other countries around the world which engage in similarly vile behaviour? Because Israel, unlike most other despotic countries, holds itself up and pridefully brags about being "the only democracy in the middle east".

    To put this more simply, evil will always be met with disdain, but evil practised by self-righteous pr!cks with an insufferably inflated ego and rampant sense of "we're better than you" will always be met with far, far more disdain than evil practised by people who don't pretend to be better than everyone else at the same time.


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    #3840
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,978 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It's also almost impossible to overstate just how revered the whole clerical class was: I was also a child but my memory of the way people spoke of priests and nuns was that they would always have presumed they were acting from the best of motives even when they disliked the actions themselves.

    It's cynical in the extreme to use this past naivety to justify the guilty parties escaping punishment. People then did not know a fraction of what went on. When they found out they were (mostly) disgusted and the church's loss of prestige is both the result and the evidence that they did not know.

    It was an indication of how dysfunctional Irish society was back then. The same phenomenon wasn't going on to a similar degree in other Catholic countries such as Spain, Portugal, France and Italy. There, priests and nuns were respected but none of this putting them on a pedestal business and treating them as virtual saints.

    There was something deeply dysfunctional about Ireland in the first five decades after independence. The church bashers will claim this was caused by the Church but I suspect it ran much deeper than that : it seemed to be a very conservative, inward looking and judgemental society.


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    #3841
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The main man, Francis himself, is a prime example of that.

    Evidence?


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