Build up to Berlin European Championships

Hermy · 13-08-2018 6:26pm

Thanks Beep.

RTE commentary didn't mention it and I found no mention of it online so it left me wondering.

Safiri · 13-08-2018 8:56pm

I can't believe some of the stuff being said about Mageann here. We have very few athletes in this Country competing at the level Mageann is and whenever we do, it's always the same nonsense levelled at them. Ciara is a hell of an athlete and has always turned up to wear the Irish vest indoors, outdoors and even in XC. I don't know how many of you who are basically calling her a quitter have run a 1500m in your life and just how quickly your legs can start to fry.

To put this into perspective, Ciara ran 4:04 afte r an opening lap of 71. That is just 3 seconds shy of her PB after a slow start. That was the tactics Muir used to burn off the field and make sure no one had a kick. Ciara is probably in close to if not in PB shape right now to be able to run that time off a 71 opening lap. It's expecting a bit much for someone that is running pretty much on the limit to be able to muster a devastating kick at the end of a race like that.

As for Jerry Kiernan, he should know better. The reason Ciara isn't kicking past anyone on the final straight in the last few years is because the depth of the event has exploded and that one of the best runners in the World has no kick in Laura Muir who has to frontrun the kicks out everyone else with a fast pace.

I may be in the minority here but I thought that was a hell of a performance from Ciara and full of grit even if it didn't result in a medal. Her post race interview should leave no doubt of the effort if everything else didn't already prove it.

Strazdas · 13-08-2018 9:10pm

Safiri wrote: »

I can't believe some of the stuff being said about Mageann here. We have very few athletes in this Country competing at the level Mageann is and whenever we do, it's always the same nonsense levelled at them. Ciara is a hell of an athlete and has always turned up to wear the Irish vest indoors, outdoors and even in XC. I don't know how many of you who are basically calling her a quitter have run a 1500m in your life and just how quickly your legs can start to fry.

To put this into perspective, Ciara ran 4:04 afte r an opening lap of 71. That is just 3 seconds shy of her PB after a slow start. That was the tactics Muir used to burn off the field and make sure no one had a kick. Ciara is probably in close to if not in PB shape right now to be able to run that time off a 71 opening lap. It's expecting a bit much for someone that is running pretty much on the limit to be able to muster a devastating kick at the end of a race like that.

As for Jerry Kiernan, he should know better. The reason Ciara isn't kicking past anyone on the final straight in the last few years is because the depth of the event has exploded and that one of the best runners in the World has no kick in Laura Muir who has to frontrun the kicks out everyone else with a fast pace.

I may be in the minority here but I thought that was a hell of a performance from Ciara and full of grit even if it didn't result in a medal. Her post race interview should leave no doubt of the effort if everything else didn't already prove it.

Yes, I would agree with most of that. I think people were probably disappointed for Ciara last night rather than with her. Watching the race back today and she came very close to medalling and put in a huge effort, probably on a par with Thomas Barr's effort the other evening.

Good to see though she got a huge amount of support on her Twitter page last night.

Faugheen · 13-08-2018 9:15pm

She vomited at least three times after the race. Anyone even suggesting that it looked like she wasn't trying in the last 100 needs to have a long hard look at themselves.

fishy21 · 14-08-2018 12:14pm

Well Mageean did better than I expected going into the championships. I think she should be proud and she doesnt have the last 100 finishing speed of world class athletes but she is a clever racer.
Im sure she ran out of gas trying to stay with Ennaoui

Itziger · 14-08-2018 1:04pm

Faugheen wrote: »

She vomited at least three times after the race. Anyone even suggesting that it looked like she wasn't trying in the last 100 needs to have a long hard look at themselves.

One minute now, there's a big difference between saying 'she wasn't trying' and 'it doesn't look like she's trying that hard'. In horse racing they sometimes speak of 'visually impressive' performances. This basically means the horse looks fast and won easily and/or by some distance. But canny punters know that it doesn't always mean the horse truly put in a brilliant performance and will do so again in its next race.
On a simple, 'visual' if you like, review I'd say the vast majority of people would say C.M. doesn't look like she's trying as hard as the British runner. As we all know, there are different ways of suffering and of showing that suffering.

average_runner · 14-08-2018 1:47pm

Safiri wrote: »

I can't believe some of the stuff being said about Mageann here. We have very few athletes in this Country competing at the level Mageann is and whenever we do, it's always the same nonsense levelled at them. Ciara is a hell of an athlete and has always turned up to wear the Irish vest indoors, outdoors and even in XC. I don't know how many of you who are basically calling her a quitter have run a 1500m in your life and just how quickly your legs can start to fry.

To put this into perspective, Ciara ran 4:04 afte r an opening lap of 71. That is just 3 seconds shy of her PB after a slow start. That was the tactics Muir used to burn off the field and make sure no one had a kick. Ciara is probably in close to if not in PB shape right now to be able to run that time off a 71 opening lap. It's expecting a bit much for someone that is running pretty much on the limit to be able to muster a devastating kick at the end of a race like that.

As for Jerry Kiernan, he should know better. The reason Ciara isn't kicking past anyone on the final straight in the last few years is because the depth of the event has exploded and that one of the best runners in the World has no kick in Laura Muir who has to frontrun the kicks out everyone else with a fast pace.

I may be in the minority here but I thought that was a hell of a performance from Ciara and full of grit even if it didn't result in a medal. Her post race interview should leave no doubt of the effort if everything else didn't already prove it.

She had gone backwards for awhile there, but that 1500m race was good step in the right direction. I wasn't expecting that good of a performance. Hopefully the new setup she moved to in the UK will continue to have an positive impact. It does take a year or more for a new setup to show it rewards.

Regarding Gerry, not a big fan of his. But he was her previous coach so maybe something in that

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2018 1:59pm

Itziger wrote: »

One minute now, there's a big difference between saying 'she wasn't trying' and 'it doesn't look like she's trying that hard'. In horse racing they sometimes speak of 'visually impressive' performances. This basically means the horse looks fast and won easily and/or by some distance. But canny punters know that it doesn't always mean the horse truly put in a brilliant performance and will do so again in its next race.
On a simple, 'visual' if you like, review I'd say the vast majority of people would say C.M. doesn't look like she's trying as hard as the British runner. As we all know, there are different ways of suffering and of showing that suffering.

Comparing athletes and thoroughbreds in this context is kind of a bit silly, though, isn't it? We cant read horse's minds and they are not there by choice so we can never be 100% certain they are emptying themselves in the pursuit. Major championships, on the other hand, are the culmination of an athlete's lifework and leaving something behind is not an option. We dont need to see their heads rolling from side to side or their tongue hanging out to be reassured they are putting it all in. Maybe they should be allowed whips so they can self-flagellate themselves down the home straight to offer further reassurance

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2018 2:04pm

average_runner wrote: »

She had gone backwards for awhile there, but that 1500m race was good step in the right direction. I wasn't expecting that good of a performance. Hopefully the new setup she moved to in the UK will continue to have an positive impact. It does take a year or more for a new setup to show it rewards.

Regarding Gerry, not a big fan of his. But he was her previous coach so maybe something in that

Not necessarily defending Jerry but if i recall correctly, didn't Sonia pretty much say the exact same thing? She then said something about Ciara not practising her finishing kick sufficiently but to be honest I didn't fully get the point she was trying to make here. Maybe she'll clarify it in her next newspaper column if she chooses to address it. Would be interested to hear more anyway.

Itziger · 14-08-2018 2:13pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

One minute now, there's a big difference between saying 'she wasn't trying' and 'it doesn't look like she's trying that hard'. In horse racing they sometimes speak of 'visually impressive' performances. This basically means the horse looks fast and won easily and/or by some distance. But canny punters know that it doesn't always mean the horse truly put in a brilliant performance and will do so again in its next race.
On a simple, 'visual' if you like, review I'd say the vast majority of people would say C.M. doesn't look like she's trying as hard as the British runner. As we all know, there are different ways of suffering and of showing that suffering.

Comparing athletes and thoroughbreds in this context is kind of a bit silly, though, isn't it? We cant read horse's minds and they are not there by choice so we can never be 100% certain they are emptying themselves in the pursuit. Major championships, on the other hand, are the culmination of an athlete's lifework and leaving something behind is not an option. We dont need to see their heads rolling from side to side or their tongue hanging out to be reassured they are putting it all in. Maybe they should be allowed whips so they can self-flagellate themselves down the home straight to offer further reassurance

Eh, I'm hoping the smiley indicates you're not being too serious there, in the first sentence not the last. My point was that what we see doesn't always tell the whole story. Some athletes, like the Dutch woman in the 5 and 10,000 and to a slightly lesser extent, Weightman in the 1,500 do exhibit huge obvious signs of great effort. Others seem more controlled and if one of the 'tongue hanging out' gang beats an athlete who looks relatively composed, well at least some people will say, "If she'd tried harder!!!!!" That's all there is to it.

Chivito550 · 14-08-2018 2:20pm

robinph wrote: »

It was strange to watch Mageen. Weightman was done and had nothing left at all, Mageen pulled alongside and just appeared to jog in. When they showed the head on view Weightmans expression wasn't of finding a final last spurt of speed, it was just of being broken and trying to not fall over before the line, whilst Mageen just looked like she was out for a stroll and zero interest in racing for the line.

robinph wrote: »

With 50m to go she is up on the shoulder of Weightman and about to follow the other runner past her, then she backs off?!? There is no final sprint finish effort from her, she's just jogging in to the line.

Among the dumbest posts I've ever read on here, particularly the bit in bold.

robinph · 14-08-2018 2:22pm

If she'd won looking like she did everyone would be claiming that she was running well within her capabilities, regardless of how much she was actually rinsing herself.

She had taken 10+ meters out of Weightman in the previous hundred meters though, then lost 5. Maybe she did blow a gasket in trying to keep up, but maybe if she'd only taken half the distance in the 200m-100m to go she'd have kept the pace up and got the position in the last 100m by better pacing of the last lap. We'll never know. But she didn't manage to get a 3rd place which appeared to be easily up for grabs from about 250m to go.

robinph · 14-08-2018 2:26pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Among the dumbest posts I've ever read on here, particularly the bit in bold.

Maybe you were watching a different race. But that is exactly what I saw, she pulls alongside at 50m to go and then drops off.

What is to question about that, it is exactly what happened? Maybe you saw different effort levels in the running style, but doesn't change that she had caught but didn't pass for some reason despite having got a tow all the way from the other runner.

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2018 2:29pm

Itziger wrote: »

Eh, I'm hoping the smiley indicates you're not being too serious there, in the first sentence not the last. My point was that what we see doesn't always tell the whole story. Some athletes, like the Dutch woman in the 5 and 10,000 and to a slightly lesser extent, Weightman in the 1,500 do exhibit huge obvious signs of great effort. Others seem more controlled and if one of the 'tongue hanging out' gang beats an athlete who looks relatively composed, well at least some people will say, "If she'd tried harder!!!!!" That's all there is to it.

No I actually agree with what you're saying, just think it works better without the racing analogy. Its just different racing styles. I like watching Hassan race, she has that lazy, languid style that makes it seem as if she's doing nothing, but I find it visually appealing. There's another famous runner of the past used to race with head rolling from side to side as if he/she was going to collapse at any second but it was invariably deceptive. Just cant think of name right now.

Cork Boy 53 · 14-08-2018 2:32pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No I actually agree with what you're saying, just think it works better without the racing analogy. Its just different racing styles. I like watching Hassan race, she has that lazy, languid style that makes it seem as if she's doing nothing, but I find it visually appealing. There's another famous runner of the past used to race with head rolling from side to side as if he/she was going to collapse at any second but it was invariably deceptive. Just cant think of name right now.

Paula Radcliffe maybe?

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2018 2:42pm

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Paula Radcliffe maybe?

Was originally thinking way back, but Radcliffe would be perfect example for sure.

Down South · 14-08-2018 2:49pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Was originally thinking way back, but Radcliffe would be perfect example for sure.

Zatopek?

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2018 3:07pm

Down South wrote: »

Zatopek?

Yes...thats the one. Just wouldn't come to me!

Chivito550 · 14-08-2018 3:07pm

robinph wrote: »

Maybe you were watching a different race. But that is exactly what I saw, she pulls alongside at 50m to go and then drops off.

What is to question about that, it is exactly what happened? Maybe you saw different effort levels in the running style, but doesn't change that she had caught but didn't pass for some reason despite having got a tow all the way from the other runner.

I had a great view of the race from the finish line!

Tensing up and straining your face is a sure fire way to run slower. I thought most runners know this.

Mageean was f**ked afterwards. Puked her guts up about 3 times.

She didn't pass her because she was not able to pass her. There's nothing else to it. She was beaten by a better runner.

Strazdas · 14-08-2018 3:11pm

robinph wrote: »

Maybe you were watching a different race. But that is exactly what I saw, she pulls alongside at 50m to go and then drops off.

What is to question about that, it is exactly what happened? Maybe you saw different effort levels in the running style, but doesn't change that she had caught but didn't pass for some reason despite having got a tow all the way from the other runner.

The way I saw it she simply didn't have the petrol in the tank to accelerate in the last 150m.

It could be that she burned up too much energy earlier in the race, especially around two laps out when she had to start chasing the leaders. She always looks deceptively like she is cruising but she may have been flat to the board on that last lap. It was just her bad luck that she had three athletes in front of her rather than two.

chasingpaper · 14-08-2018 3:35pm

The splits are all here http://www.european-athletics.org/competitions/european-athletics-championships/2018/athletics/event/womens-1500m/phase=atw015100/doc=documents.html
Looking at the top 4 places 200m splits Mageean actually seems to have the fastest individual single 200m split of the recorded for any portion of the race (1100m to 1300m). Last lap for each was
LM 30.56 - 32.56 - 63.12
SE 30.57 - 31.27 - 61.84
LW 31.22 - 32.67 - 63.89
CM 30.53 - 32.58 - 63.11
It just backs up what people are saying, she just had too much to do when Muir upped the pace from 300m on and she got detached. She also had traffic to contend with too when moving up the field. All those ahead of her had SB over a second better. It was a good performance and I hope she takes heart from it, she can be proud of her effort.

Chivito550 · 14-08-2018 5:13pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

The splits are all here http://www.european-athletics.org/competitions/european-athletics-championships/2018/athletics/event/womens-1500m/phase=atw015100/doc=documents.html
Looking at the top 4 places 200m splits Mageean actually seems to have the fastest individual single 200m split of the recorded for any portion of the race (1100m to 1300m). Last lap for each was
LM 30.56 - 32.56 - 63.12
SE 30.57 - 31.27 - 61.84
LW 31.22 - 32.67 - 63.89
CM 30.53 - 32.58 - 63.11
It just backs up what people are saying, she just had too much to do when Muir upped the pace from 300m on and she got detached. She also had traffic to contend with too when moving up the field. All those ahead of her had SB over a second better. It was a good performance and I hope she takes heart from it, she can be proud of her effort.

She said after the race her plan was never to go with Muir. She said that Muir is a 3:55 runner (even if she's not in that shape right now) and that she is just not at that level yet. Her plan was to wind it up slowly. If she went with Muir she would have blown up worse than Weightman did and finished down the field. She ran a very smart race. She didn't put a foot wrong tactically. The three women ahead of her are simply better athletes right now.

It was a splendid run from Ciara. It was better than her bronze in Amsterdam, where she made a tactical error getting boxed in, and also because the field was stronger this time (no Muir last time).

Strazdas · 15-08-2018 4:17pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

She said after the race her plan was never to go with Muir. She said that Muir is a 3:55 runner (even if she's not in that shape right now) and that she is just not at that level yet. Her plan was to wind it up slowly. If she went with Muir she would have blown up worse than Weightman did and finished down the field. She ran a very smart race. She didn't put a foot wrong tactically. The three women ahead of her are simply better athletes right now.

It was a splendid run from Ciara. It was better than her bronze in Amsterdam, where she made a tactical error getting boxed in, and also because the field was stronger this time (no Muir last time).

The 2016 race was messy too. Very slow pace for three laps and then a big sprint on the last lap, lots of bumping and barging and Ciara had to go around the outside having been boxed in.

Perhaps expectations were a tiny bit on the high side for her this time. This was a tougher field and a truer run race.

YFlyer · 15-08-2018 4:33pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No I actually agree with what you're saying, just think it works better without the racing analogy. Its just different racing styles. I like watching Hassan race, she has that lazy, languid style that makes it seem as if she's doing nothing, but I find it visually appealing. There's another famous runner of the past used to race with head rolling from side to side as if he/she was going to collapse at any second but it was invariably deceptive. Just cant think of name right now.

The Brazilian Barbosa? I think Frank O'Mara use to rock his head a bit.

Sheridan81 · 16-08-2018 9:09pm

Safiri wrote:

To put this into perspective, Ciara ran 4:04 afte r an opening lap of 71. That is just 3 seconds shy of her PB after a slow start. That was the tactics Muir used to burn off the field and make sure no one had a kick. Ciara is probably in close to if not in PB shape right now to be able to run that time off a 71 opening lap. It's expecting a bit much for someone that is running pretty much on the limit to be able to muster a devastating kick at the end of a race like that.

Nobody expects her to turn into Usain Bolt, but Ennaoui PB is around the same and she managed a short burst at the end. It's disappointing for everyone that Mageean didn't.

As for Jerry Kiernan, he should know better. The reason Ciara isn't kicking past anyone on the final straight in the last few years is because the depth of the event has exploded and that one of the best runners in the World has no kick in Laura Muir who has to frontrun the kicks out everyone else with a fast pace.

Jerry surely does know better than all of us, having coached her until last year.

Mageean hasn't been up against superstars running full pelt in every race she's run the last few years. I think she's lost against some relatively average runners in heats and semi-finals and so forth, although her injuries are mitigating circumstances.

I wouldn't say Muir has no kick. She's not the fastest finisher, and it's not her primary tactic and what she's renowned for, but it's there. I would bet on Muir in a slow-paced race against most 1500 runners. She beat Obiri one time with a super kick in a 3000 metres race.

Strazdas wrote: »

Watching the race back today and she came very close to medalling and put in a huge effort, probably on a par with Thomas Barr's effort the other evening.

I think Barr is on another level. He's a top ten 400m hurdler at his best. He's top ten this year I think, with his final performance. He's finished fourth in the Olympics. He's world class.

Chivito550 wrote: »

It was a splendid run from Ciara. It was better than her bronze in Amsterdam, where she made a tactical error getting boxed in, and also because the field was stronger this time (no Muir last time).

I'm not sure the field was stronger, but she did run a tactically poor race in Amsterdam which probably cost her the silver. She only ran 4:30 or so two years ago to pick up a bronze so I wholeheartedly agree that she actually gave a better performance this time round, both tactically and on time.

I said that I didn't ever see her winning a medal at a major championship, but that was a hasty judgement. If she can sustain this sort of form, I think she might possibly get a Commonwealth/European/European indoor bronze/silver some day again; she'll probably need a slow-paced race to come top three which wasn't what she got this time round. Hopefully she'll continue to improve with her new coaching team.

When one considers the quality of athlete she'll be up against at world level however, it's hard to see her ever getting near the podium at a World Champs or Olympics.

walshb wrote: »

Too right. The 1500 is D ultimate test of a runner...

I love the 1500. I think it's my favourite event. It's a suspenseful mixture of sprinting, endurance and tactics. Give me that over a 10 second dash any day.

yerwanthere123 · 30-08-2020 2:24pm

Meraf Bahta has been stripped of her bronze from the Women's 10,000m for doping offences, Germany's Alina Reh gets it instead. Link is in Swedish but you'll get the gist. Apparently she was already in trouble before the championships but was allowed to run anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Build up to Berlin European Championships

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