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Carbon tax budget increase

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  • 06-08-2018 5:56pm
    #1
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭


    So the kite flying has begun. According to Leo Varadkar we have to "grasp the nettle". And we are being softened up for an increase in the budget.

    The problem is most people would want to be green and not waste electricity or gas. It's expensive enough, but we have to heat our homes. It's not exactly a luxury, it's not something we can avoid. Heat or freeze, what are they trying to encourage us to do?
    There is no alternative, we are dependent on Russian gas and the ESB to provide our energy.

    The solution is to attempt to try cleaner energy production, but that's not up to us, it has to be there, created by the state, then we can use it. It's just another form of taxation that we can't avoid. It's certainly not fair!


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    #2
    VonZan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭VonZan


    Surely the strategists in Fine Gael HQ can come up with a better plan than to just tax carbon based fuels. If that's the plan then we might as well just start burning our trash at home.


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    #3
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    First thing they need to do is increase the carbon tax.

    Second thing they need to do is increase the excise duty on diesel.

    Third thing they need to do is allow those who are generating electricity from solar to sell surplus back to the state.

    Fourth thing they need to do is shut down the peat-burning stations.

    Fifth thing they need to do is remove the restrictions on wind turbines being built near rural homes

    Sixth thing they need to do is ban all one-off housing in rural areas.

    Seventh thing they need to do is instruct DCC to allow high density high rise in Dublin City Centre

    Eighth thing they need to do is build the Metro, DART Underground and electrify the Dublin commuter rail.

    Ninth thing they need to do is incentivise retrofitting.

    Oh I could go on and on, but it would be great if the government actually did do something to address the environmental issues.


  • Options
    #4
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Even if this global warming BS was real which it isn't a tiny country such as Ireland has little to no impact on global carbon emissions.

    Varadkar is just virtue signaling.


  • Options
    #5
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Even if this global warming BS was real which it isn't a tiny country such as Ireland has little to no impact on global carbon emissions.

    Varadkar is just virtue signaling.

    It could be worse. He could be stupidity signaling.


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    #6
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Even if this global warming BS was real which it isn't a tiny country such as Ireland has little to no impact on global carbon emissions.

    Varadkar is just virtue signaling.

    Blah blah blah blah blah. Every single time global warming is mentioned people like you crawl out of the woodwork

    Carbon taxes are an essential tool in combatting climate change. Do I like paying more taxes, of course not, but its the right thing to do


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    #7
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,003 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Even if this global warming BS was real which it isn't a tiny country such as Ireland has little to no impact on global carbon emissions.

    Varadkar is just virtue signaling.

    Global warming is real.

    What's BS is trying to stop it.

    The main reason people say we have to stop it is because place x will be too hot/too cold/ too wet/ too dry etc for future generations.

    So fcuking what.

    Generations in the future will adapt to place x being too hot/too cold/ too wet/ too dry and live accordingly.


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    #8
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Global warming is real.

    What's BS is trying to stop it.

    The main reason people say we have to stop it is because place x will be too hot/too cold/ too wet/ too dry etc for future generations.

    So fcuking what.

    Generations in the future will adapt to place x being too hot/too cold/ too wet/ too dry and live accordingly.
    The stupidest and most short sighted thing I have read in a long time.


  • Options
    #9
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭emo72


    Increasing taxes doesn't fight climate change. Providing an alternative clean energy does.

    But anyway, it's the national herd creating methane is the actual problem. But that can't be criticised.


  • Options
    #10
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,003 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The stupidest and most short sighted thing I have read in a long time.


    Why though ?

    The earth has been heating and cooling for billions of years and species have either died out or evolved.

    How is this different ?


  • Options
    #11
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    blanch152 wrote:
    Second thing they need to do is increase the excise duty on diesel.

    Why? Petrol is more harmful to the atmosphere than Diesel.


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    #12
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Even if this global warming BS was real which it isn't a tiny country such as Ireland has little to no impact on global carbon emissions.

    Varadkar is just virtue signaling.

    It's real. It's quite simply moronic to deny the wealth of evidence available to you.


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    #13
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭emo72


    lawred2 wrote: »
    It's real. It's quite simply moronic to deny the wealth of evidence available to you.

    Of course climate change is real. It's constantly in flux. Always has been always will be.

    Also Ireland is absolutely tiny, but I agree, that's no reason to try nothing. Let's be the best we can be is always my motto.


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    #14
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Only thing Ill say is I wont be impressed if fuel increases in price again. We pay ridiculous levels on tax for fuel as it is and this just irritates people more.


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    #15
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    firemansam4 wrote: »
    Why? Petrol is more harmful to the atmosphere than Diesel.

    Because diesel kills people. Also, is petrol actually more harmful to the atmosphere, or are you basing that on the amount of CO² produced?


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    #16
    BaronVon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    blanch152 wrote: »
    First thing they need to do is increase the carbon tax.

    Second thing they need to do is increase the excise duty on diesel.

    Third thing they need to do is allow those who are generating electricity from solar to sell surplus back to the state.

    Fourth thing they need to do is shut down the peat-burning stations.

    Fifth thing they need to do is remove the restrictions on wind turbines being built near rural homes

    Sixth thing they need to do is ban all one-off housing in rural areas.

    Seventh thing they need to do is instruct DCC to allow high density high rise in Dublin City Centre

    Eighth thing they need to do is build the Metro, DART Underground and electrify the Dublin commuter rail.

    Ninth thing they need to do is incentivise retrofitting.

    Oh I could go on and on, but it would be great if the government actually did do something to address the environmental issues.

    You left out building a nuclear power plant, the cleanest, most reliable form of electricity production available!


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    #17
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Diesel particulates can be harmful to people in citys mostly, but that is nothing to do with what a carbon tax is about. New dpf technology will hopefully reduce the harmful effects of diesels to humans.
    Petrol engines are less efficient and produce more CO2 for this reason, as such they should be penalized every bit as much as diesel should be.


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    #18
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Why though ?

    The earth has been heating and cooling for billions of years and species have either died out or evolved.

    How is this different ?

    Its different because we're the ones causing the warming, and we're going to be the one's facing the apocalyptic consequences if we don't cop ourselves on.

    The planet will be grand, but human civilisation as we know it may not be compatible with a planet 4c hotter than it is today. We're seeing devastating droughts, heatwaves and wildfires around the world today and we've only warmed by about 1c.


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    #19
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,115 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    We already have one of the most expensive electricity and gas prices in the EU, why don't they go the whole hog and impose a window tax to tax the daylight coming in to our houses while they are at it, bunch of chancers.


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    #20
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    blanch152 wrote: »
    First thing they need to do is increase the carbon tax.

    Second thing they need to do is increase the excise duty on diesel.

    Sixth thing they need to do is ban all one-off housing in rural areas.

    Don't have any issue with the other things you mention but as a rural dweller I'd be very much against the three above, as I imagine would most other rural people.


  • Options
    #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A carbon tax to do what, exactly?

    My gas bills are a fortune as it is and I would love nothing more than to cut them.

    Despite being built in 2002, my house has appallingly bad insulation and did have a really bad boiler. I’ve recently taken advantage of the scheme to upgrade to a condensing boiler, which meant I got €500 back, but I still had to fork out €3,000 for this.

    I’d love to replace my doors and windows (which have really poor double glazing, I’m surprised they were allowed to fit these) but I can’t afford to shell out the thousands that would cost.

    I don’t need to be penalized for using gas, I (like most people) need help to cut down on the usage.


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    #22
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Blah blah blah blah blah. Every single time global warming is mentioned people like you crawl out of the woodwork

    Carbon taxes are an essential tool in combatting climate change. Do I like paying more taxes, of course not, but its the right thing to do




    Meanwhile China is building a new coal power station every week.

    It totally pointless for Ireland to cut its carbon emissions unless the US and China also cut their emissions which isn't going to happen any time soon.


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    #23
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Meanwhile China is building a new coal power station every week.

    It totally pointless for Ireland to cut its carbon emissions unless the US and China also cut their emissions which isn't going to happen any time soon.

    China have cancelled hundreds of coal powerstations and permits have declined by 85% last year, and the amount of actual power generated by coal power stations in China is declining rather than increasing, but never let the truth get in the way of a good reason to blame someone else for a shared problem.

    The Chinese are going to be the world leader in renewable energy and they're going to make a fortune selling the technology to the rest of the world while we have eejits here complaining about their gas bills

    When it becomes cheaper to install solar panels than to pay for gas heating, people will change over. This requires subsidies, grants and building regulations requiring better energy efficiency, and it also requires carbon taxes on fossil fuels.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/10/china-on-track-to-lead-in-renewables-as-us-retreats-report-says


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    #24
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Akrasia wrote: »
    China have cancelled hundreds of coal powerstations and permits have declined by 85% last year, and the amount of actual power generated by coal power stations in China is declining rather than increasing, but never let the truth get in the way of a good reason to blame someone else for a shared problem.

    The Chinese are going to be the world leader in renewable energy and they're going to make a fortune selling the technology to the rest of the world while we have eejits here complaining about their gas bills

    When it becomes cheaper to install solar panels than to pay for gas heating, people will change over. This requires subsidies, grants and building regulations requiring better energy efficiency, and it also requires carbon taxes on fossil fuels.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/10/china-on-track-to-lead-in-renewables-as-us-retreats-report-says

    I get the carrot and stick approach, but at the moment it seems to be that the small carrot isn’t working, so we’ll just get a bigger stick.


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    #25
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think the carrot should be a lot bigger too. This is the reason why international agreements to cut emissions should have hefty penalties for states that don't meet their targets. States need to invest in emissions reduction, and there needs to be incentives to make it cheaper for them to act, than to fail to act.

    Ultimately, even if governments borrowed heavily now to fund new energy and transport infrastructure and to improve energy efficiency in the housing stock and industry, it is still cheaper than paying the cost of adapting to climate change.

    There will be adaptation costs, we're already locked in to some level of adaptation, but the more time we waste now, the higher these costs will be, and they can get extremely high.


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    #26
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    There's little point in raising taxes based on carbon emissions unless there's follow through. People will pay what they are forced to pay. Unless we invest the monies in alternate or more efficient fuels a higher cost won't help matters.


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    #27
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    emo72 wrote: »
    Increasing taxes doesn't fight climate change. Providing an alternative clean energy does.

    But anyway, it's the national herd creating methane is the actual problem. But that can't be criticised.

    Indeed. If Ireland was serious about tackling emissions it would be going after the big hitters, like agriculture but instead we are growing the national herd.

    Transport, surprisingly, contributes a much smaller proportion to carbon emissions than you'd think. Certainly much smaller than would warrant the attention it's getting.

    If we overnight converted to electric cars, it would have an insignificant impact on national emissions. Converting Moneypoint to nuclear would be far more effective.

    But at the end of the day, fuel prices have been higher at the pumps and this hasn't stunted growth so the see that the economy can tolerate it. So they want a slice of that action, dressed up as an environmental measure. That don't have the balls to call it for what it is. A plain old simple tax rise.


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    #28
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    There's little point in raising taxes based on carbon emissions unless there's follow through. People will pay what they are forced to pay. Unless we invest the monies in alternate or more efficient fuels a higher cost won't help matters.
    but people are investing in alternative energy and energy efficiency measures, and more people will do this as it becomes more financially attractive.

    If electricity costs 1000 euros a year, and a solar pv instalation costs 5000, then it has a payback time of 5 years

    if electricity costs 1250 euros a year, that payback time becomes 4 years.

    If there is also a grant of about 1k for the installation, then the payback time gets closer to 3 years.

    If there are mechanisms to allow customers sell excess power back to the grid, then these solutions become more attractive still.


    Then there's the home heating costs. If oil goes up by 20%, it becomes more attractive for homeowners to upgrade their insulation, or get a more efficient boiler, or switch to a stove

    Combine this with grants from the government to assist homeowners to make any of these upgrades and you have a win win situation. homeowners have lower long term running costs and also lower carbon emissions.


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    #29
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    Indeed. If Ireland was serious about tackling emissions it would be going after the big hitters, like agriculture but instead we are growing the national herd.

    Transport, surprisingly, contributes a much smaller proportion to carbon emissions than you'd think. Certainly much smaller than would warrant the attention it's getting.

    If we overnight converted to electric cars, it would have an insignificant impact on national emissions. Converting Moneypoint to nuclear would be far more effective.

    But at the end of the day, fuel prices have been higher at the pumps and this hasn't stunted growth so the see that the economy can tolerate it. So they want a slice of that action, dressed up as an environmental measure. That don't have the balls to call it for what it is. A plain old simple tax rise.

    We need to come up with a technology that will methane reduce emissions from livestock. There is a kind of seaweed that when given as a supplement to cattle, it cuts methane emissions by more than 90%. Universities are working to try to isolate the enzymes responsible for this and once they figure it out, it would be a game changer for agriculture

    With livestock emissions, it's not as urgent as co2 emissions at the moment, because methane emitted today will be gone from the atmosphere in 10 years, while CO2 has a residence time of over a century. We don't want to reach a tipping point however, so cutting methane emissions is still a very worthy objective


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    #30
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Akrasia wrote:
    If electricity costs 1000 euros a year, and a solar pv instalation costs 5000, then it has a payback time of 5 years

    Akrasia wrote:
    if electricity costs 1250 euros a year, that payback time becomes 4 years.


    I dont know that much about PV technology but even if we had a FIT system like the uk has, I was under the impression that payback times are way more than you are suggesting. I tried a simple online calculator for a system in NI for a cost of just over 6000 sterling and it shows a payback time of over 11 years, and that was assuming a large directly south facing roof.


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    #31
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    Akrasia wrote: »
    If electricity costs 1000 euros a year, and a solar pv instalation costs 5000, then it has a payback time of 5 years

    What, if any, additional costs are with each "system", sod all for esb once its in afaik, yes there are price increases. But, what is the life expectancy of solar, does it require maintenance or replacement, does performance degrade over time etc? I know an example given in George Lee's piece lately didn't seem right unless one had costs of about €7k a year - cost was €35k and payback in 5 years.


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