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jouletherm hot water cyliner

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  • 18-06-2018 12:27pm
    #1
    darrmolo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭


    Has anybody on here had any experience with the Joule Them H20 water heater.

    It acts as a hot water cylinder but instead of the water being heated by other systems it was a mini air to water heat pump on top. 
    It looks like a good tidy set up too.
    Anybody ever seen one or have one installed.
    Im looking for a new build.


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    #2
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    darrmolo wrote: »
    Has anybody on here had any experience with the Joule Them H20 water heater.

    It acts as a hot water cylinder but instead of the water being heated by other systems it was a mini air to water heat pump on top. 
    It looks like a good tidy set up too.
    Anybody ever seen one or have one installed.
    Im looking for a new build.

    What sort of price was it?

    It could be a good solution but probably not for a new build.

    The problem is that this will extract heat from your living space in order to heat the water. So it really depends on how you are heating space in the house. What heating system do you plan to have?


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    #3
    darrmolo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭darrmolo


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    What sort of price was it?

    It could be a good solution but probably not for a new build.

    The problem is that this will extract heat from your living space in order to heat the water. So it really depends on how you are heating space in the house. What heating system do you plan to have?

    €2480 for the largest of 3 sizes being 300l. Apparently you just run then at night and it is supposed to only use 4 units of electricity. There is an immersion build in too.
    These figures are from a rep from jouletherm


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    #4
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    So where is it supposed to get the heat from?

    The electricity doesn't supply heat. It just concentrates warmth from your room into the water.

    How are you heating the rest of the house?


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    #5
    darrmolo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭darrmolo


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    So where is it supposed to get the heat from?

    The electricity doesn't supply heat. It just concentrates warmth from your room into the water.

    How are you heating the rest of the house?

    I am aware of that. I was planning on using a condensing oil boiler. Haven't had a provisional ber done yet


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    #6
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    darrmolo wrote: »
    I am aware of that. I was planning on using a condensing oil boiler. Haven't had a provisional ber done yet

    Almost certainly far more economic to heat the water directly with the oil boiler. Put the water heating on a separate zone and get a ‘fast recovery’ cylinder. This will cost very little extra.

    Talk to your professional advisers and your plumber before you commit to any expensive option like this would be my advice.


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    #7
    freddyuk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    These have been around for many years. Ideal installation would be a commercial kitchen in a hospital with a requirement for cool environment as in MRI scanner room. Taking excess heat from the kitchen and heating a tank of water then sending cooled air to to another room. Within a domestic situation you would likely be taking air from outside or from the attic in summer but in winter where do you get excess heat? As in any heat pump they have limits of performance without nice warm air to extract heat from.
    They are not that expensive to buy direct from manufacturer as it is a cylinder with a heat pump bolted on top but installation requires 150mm pipes from warm to cool areas. Some had twin coils so you could attach solar input too which would make it more efficient but probably not that viable over regular thermal collector and pump into standard large cylinder.


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    #8
    raytaxi
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    Was thinking of one of these, my idea was to get one with dual coil and use oil boiler for additional heat in winter as oil on for heating. Though from what i read here maybe better getting heating zoned into 3 zones. At moment I have downstairs heat and water in one zone, upstairs can be switch on or off but other zone has to be on.
    When we tried to get 3 zone system couldn't find downstairs circuit going to get it looked at again as want to change boiler to condenser one.


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    #9
    darrmolo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭darrmolo


    raytaxi wrote: »
    Was thinking of one of these, my idea was to get one with dual coil and use oil boiler for additional heat in winter as oil on for heating. Though from what i read here maybe better getting heating zoned into 3 zones. At moment I have downstairs heat and water in one zone, upstairs can be switch on or off but other zone has to be on.
    When we tried to get 3 zone system couldn't find downstairs circuit going to get it looked at again as want to change boiler to condenser one.

    It's another way to do it alright raytaxi. Are you sound a new build?


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    #10
    raytaxi
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    No house is about 20 years old, idea was to put in pumped showers to replace 2 electric one's. Trying to cut my esb bills from showers not fully sure this is way to go. Was suggested by plumbing suppliers when I was asking about solar options he did suggest dual coil cylinder as well. Was going to see if grants available for it as well.


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    #11
    darrmolo
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭darrmolo


    raytaxi wrote: »
    No house is about 20 years old, idea was to put in pumped showers to replace 2 electric one's. Trying to cut my esb bills from showers not fully sure this is way to go. Was suggested by plumbing suppliers when I was asking about solar options he did suggest dual coil cylinder as well. Was going to see if grants available for it as well.

    If you were building again you just put pumped showers in. Starting a new build soon myself so just looking for information.
    Be worth find I g out about the grant tho


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    #12
    raytaxi
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    Friends have Thermodynamic solar panels installed and say they are very good but reading here seems they are not a great idea, they were my original plan. Justing going to get a few quotes and see what's best.


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    #13
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I am also interested in this system for a new build, hopefully happening in the not too distant future. I assume this is effectively doing the extract part of a full MHRV system and will require a fresh air supply system for the house? Is natural ventilation an option with modern air tightness standards. I am not a fan of full MHRV and this system seems like a good compromise.

    The house would be in an area with mains gas supply, is a good gas boiler the best option for space heating (and any necessary support for the Jouletherm) or would an air to water unit do the job? I'm not convinced by air to water either.


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    #14
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I don't think that this unit would stand in well for an MHRV. An MHRV is designed to ventilate your house whilst keeping the house warm. This unit will just cool off your house and transfer the heat to the water in the cylinder.

    MHRV is ventilation in the sense that fresh air is brought out. However, the air movement is driven by fans.

    If you have the gas boiler, there is not much point in the Jouletherm really that I can see.

    Whether the A2W will do the job really depends on how low the heat loss is for your house. If it is low, it will work. If it isn't, you'll have problems. This is really something that has be worked out in detail by your professional advisers.


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    #15
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I don't think that this unit would stand in well for an MHRV. An MHRV is designed to ventilate your house whilst keeping the house warm. This unit will just cool off your house and transfer the heat to the water in the cylinder.

    MHRV is ventilation in the sense that fresh air is brought out. However, the air movement is driven by fans.

    If you have the gas boiler, there is not much point in the Jouletherm really that I can see.

    Whether the A2W will do the job really depends on how low the heat loss is for your house. If it is low, it will work. If it isn't, you'll have problems. This is really something that has be worked out in detail by your professional advisers.

    Yes I know how MHRV works. My train of thought was -> modern house good air tightness so extract ventilation at least in wet areas good idea -> Jouletherm provides this extract while also heating water -> is replacement fresh air supply needed to balance extract?

    While a boiler would negate the need for the Jouletherm, would I still need to provide some form of mechanical ventilation in a house with good air tightness? If so, doesn't it make sense to recycle that for hot water? That's my logic, maybe there are big flaws in it.


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    #16
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The principle is good, certainly.

    My fear is:

    1. It would very rapidly extract a lot of air, creating a draft and cooling the place off rapidly, without much control. You would then need to run the gas to make up the post heat in the space.

    2. If the unit isn’t specified and designed for this specific application it could lead to various problems.

    But you would really need to ask an expert on the ventilation side.


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    #17
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    raytaxi wrote: »
    No house is about 20 years old, idea was to put in pumped showers to replace 2 electric one's. Trying to cut my esb bills from showers not fully sure this is way to go.

    How many in your household and are you using a lot of hot water?

    If at least 4 people and you are using lots of water, solar evacuated tubes could be a good fit. There's a €1200 subsidy on it too.

    I had mine installed 2 years ago and with a household of 5 (4 women who like big baths and long showers), it is working out well for me.


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    #18
    raytaxi
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭raytaxi


    Plumber out and he can get me 3 zone heating with fast recovery tank, thinking of solar as well if budget allows it. Same sort of household 5 adults here.


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    #19
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I don't think that this unit would stand in well for an MHRV. An MHRV is designed to ventilate your house whilst keeping the house warm. This unit will just cool off your house and transfer the heat to the water in the cylinder.

    MHRV is ventilation in the sense that fresh air is brought out. However, the air movement is driven by fans.

    If you have the gas boiler, there is not much point in the Jouletherm really that I can see.

    Whether the A2W will do the job really depends on how low the heat loss is for your house. If it is low, it will work. If it isn't, you'll have problems. This is really something that has be worked out in detail by your professional advisers.

    Yes I know how MHRV works. My train of thought was -> modern house good air tightness so extract ventilation at least in wet areas good idea -> Jouletherm provides this extract while also heating water -> is replacement fresh air supply needed to balance extract?

    While a boiler would negate the need for the Jouletherm, would I still need to provide some form of mechanical ventilation in a house with good air tightness? If so, doesn't it make sense to recycle that for hot water? That's my logic, maybe there are big flaws in it.
    sounds like a logical approach

    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The principle is good, certainly.

    My fear is:

    1. It would very rapidly extract a lot of air, creating a draft and cooling the place off rapidly, without much control. You would then need to run the gas to make up the post heat in the space.

    2.  If the unit isn’t specified and designed for this specific application it could lead to various problems.

    But you would really need to ask an expert on the ventilation side.
    are any of these units designed for this problem?
    Or, in the case of a home with DCV, maybe a simple diverter valve arrangement could work - when not generating hot water, the normal DCV extract fan could work. When generating hot water, the extract air should go to the heat pump...


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    #20
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You could do that, but you are basically paying for purchasing and maintaining two heat recovery ventilation systems when one would probably be plenty. You might be able to make sense of it if you were heating a hotel or office block, but for a house, I don't see how it would be worth it. The amount of energy you would save is marginal. Unless you take a lot of baths, home water heating is unlikely to cost you more than a few hundred euros a year, no matter how you heat water. It's not worth investing in equipment or professional services to save some fraction of such a small amount as far as I can see.


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    #21
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Dardania wrote: »
    are any of these units designed for this problem?
    Or, in the case of a home with DCV, maybe a simple diverter valve arrangement could work - when not generating hot water, the normal DCV extract fan could work. When generating hot water, the extract air should go to the heat pump...

    In my research I came across Ecocent cylinders by an English company, Earth Save Products. They have a built in air source heat pump and seem to be specifically designed for recovering heat internal air, along with other complimentary products. You should check it out.


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    #22
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    You could do that, but you are basically paying for purchasing and maintaining two heat recovery ventilation systems when one would probably be plenty.

    Where are you getting two heat recovery systems from?


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    #23
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Where are you getting two heat recovery systems from?

    I am thinking of the DCV having a heat exchanger but true it probably wouldn’t.

    You are still putting in two expensive and sophisticated systems to handle air where one (the DCV) would be more adequate.

    I don’t understand where the saving could come from.

    The way it looks to me, for at least half the year the cylinder will just be taking heat from the internal air that will have to be replaced by turning on the heating system to keep the living space comfortable.


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    #24
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Dardania wrote: »
    are any of these units designed for this problem?
    Or, in the case of a home with DCV, maybe a simple diverter valve arrangement could work - when not generating hot water, the normal DCV extract fan could work. When generating hot water, the extract air should go to the heat pump...

    In my research I came across Ecocent cylinders by an English company, Earth Save Products. They have a built in air source heat pump and seem to be specifically designed for recovering heat internal air, along with other complimentary products. You should check it out.
    Just had a look at their page - sounds like a nice one. I'm planning a renovation in the next 2 or 3 years so will bear this in mind.
    I was also thinking another possible application for these cylinders could be de-humidification - stick one in a  laundry room, and it could help with that application (presuming of course of the condenser coil is at a low enough temp?)


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    #25
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Would you not be as well off with a heat pump dryer? Or even a condensing dryer?


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    #26
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I am thinking of the DCV having a heat exchanger but true it probably wouldn’t.

    You are still putting in two expensive and sophisticated systems to handle air where one (the DCV) would be more adequate.

    I don’t understand where the saving could come from.

    The way it looks to me, for at least half the year the cylinder will just be taking heat from the internal air that will have to be replaced by turning on the heating system to keep the living space comfortable.

    In a new build airtight house, a ventilation system is required. You can extract the stale air and replace it with fresh air but the heat in the stale air is lost to the atmosphere. You still need a separate system to provide space heating or and hot water as well as hot water storage.

    You could extract the heat from the stale air and use it for space heating but requires maintenance, multiple filter changes per year, etc. You still need a separate system to provide hot water and possibly supplementary space heating, as well as hot water storage.

    A combined cylinder and air to water heat pump takes care of both extract ventilation and water heating and storage in one system. Most of heat it uses will be coming from the wet rooms, it's effectively recycling the heat already produced every time you have a shower. A fresh air supply system is easy enough to install and maintain. A space heating system is required but as it is space heating only in a well insulated house, it is operating at a constant low temperature and should be more efficient than a system also providing hot water. That is the theory anyway.


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    #27
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Would you not be as well off with a heat pump dryer? Or even a condensing dryer?
    Have one of those (condenser dryer integrated to the washing machine), but I was hoping for a less energy intensive solution for drying shirts, jocks etc. - also I find that i'm committed to ironing my shirts after a spell in the dryer, but if they dry on a line I can get away without ironing them.


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    #28
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Dardania wrote: »
    Have one of those (condenser dryer integrated to the washing machine), but I was hoping for a less energy intensive solution for drying shirts, jocks etc. - also I find that i'm committed to ironing my shirts after a spell in the dryer, but if they dry on a line I can get away without ironing them.

    Heat pump dryer may solve these problems. You will never get a first class result with a combined washer dryer.


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