The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 03:57PM

greenpilot wrote: »

I Live and work in darkest Roscommon and, frankly, I am worried about a win for the Yes side tomorrow. On every post and pillar there are NO posters and a real lack of Yes ones. I have only been canvassed once and this was by a bunch of religious types. Not one Yes Canvasser. I think that if the Yes side lose, it will be entirely their own fault. I believe that they have taken their foot off the pedal in rural areas and this is a mistake. Most in rural Ireland who is over 55 is going to vote No. Look at their demographic. Older, religious, still bending a knee or lifting a cap to the local Priest/Bank Manager/Teacher. God fearing simple folk who are afraid of change.
The Yes said had been complacent about canvassing the Yes side in rural parts and this will be their downfall. You see, these folks vote. I know of three women in their 80's, originally from Dublin and living in Roscommon who are hopping on a train first thing on Friday to go up to vote No.
If Yes voters are complacent about voting, then it will not pass. If Yes want this to pass, the message is, whether you need to crawl on your hands and knees, be sure to vote.
The Yes side have forgotten about the Rural demographic. Big mistake. They are not for changing.

For what solace it might be, and I don't intend this at all as a backhanded jab, but Roscommon/Leitrim if I recall was the only area to vote 'no' in 2015 on SSM.

Just her · 23-05-2018 03:57PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

OK here's a new point.

What about women who regret the abortion and think it was a terrible decision?.

They might perhaps be on the fence as such with the pregnancy decision, are they are heavily pressurized by abortion clinics to terminate.

They are numerous websites of women who regret the decision like this Irish one http://womenhurt.ie/
and numerous websites exposing the pressure abortion clinics (for profit business in essence) put on women to terminate the pregnancy.

https://savethestorks.com/2017/11/went-abortion-clinic-herded-like-animals-women-exposing-truth-abortion/?nabe=5788403127025664:0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

How about abortion clinics texting and ringing women who perhaps might have changed their mind and decided to keep the baby?. It happens (by the largest abortion clinic provider in the Uk no less.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/8771141/Women-will-be-texted-reminders-about-their-abortion.html

Personally I think it is disgraceful disgusting behavior that abortion clinics will pressurize women to abort but their are numerous stories from all over the World on this happening.

So let's discuss.

I'd just like to add to that, a lot of pressure comes in from partners and parents to go for abortion as well. The reality isn't women making this decision all alone, there are often parties around them who instead of showing support for them to go ahead with their pregnancies and they will help them, will be pressurising them into abortion

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 03:57PM

greenpilot wrote: »

I Live and work in darkest Roscommon and, frankly, I am worried about a win for the Yes side tomorrow.

Did you do any canvassing yourself?

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 03:58PM

applehunter wrote: »

Sounds like Abortomania.

ABORTOMANIA:
A form of insanity characterized by great excitement and enthusiasm for abortion.

Ah yes, because every woman get super excited about the prospect of abortion

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 03:58PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

OK here's a new point.

What about women who regret the abortion and think it was a terrible decision?.

They might perhaps be on the fence as such with the pregnancy decision, are they are heavily pressurized by abortion clinics to terminate.

They are numerous websites of women who regret the decision like this Irish one http://womenhurt.ie/
and numerous websites exposing the pressure abortion clinics (for profit business in essence) put on women to terminate the pregnancy.

https://savethestorks.com/2017/11/went-abortion-clinic-herded-like-animals-women-exposing-truth-abortion/?nabe=5788403127025664:0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

How about abortion clinics texting and ringing women who perhaps might have changed their mind and decided to keep the baby?. It happens (by the largest abortion clinic provider in the Uk no less.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/8771141/Women-will-be-texted-reminders-about-their-abortion.html

Personally I think it is disgraceful disgusting behavior that abortion clinics will pressurize women to abort but their are numerous stories from all over the World on this happening.

So let's discuss.

Dude you’re talking about a serious subject here. Acting as if women take the decision to abort on a whim or are so weak minded that evil outside forces can pressurise them into aborting against their own free will. What kind of impression do you have of women that makes you think that what you describe is anything close to reality.

And for women who regret their abortions, not to be too blunt but they made their decision. If they need help reconciling that decision, our society provides a wide range of counseling options for women in this situation. It’s no big deal because support and help services are already available for women in this situation. And certainly not a reason to support a law that demands a raped 12-year old girl must be forced to carry her rapists baby.

Stonedpilot · 23-05-2018 03:59PM

uptherebels wrote: »

And seeing as most abortions in Ireland will be medical via GP why do you think clinics are going to set up for non existent customers?

Scaremongering maybe?

No you know that will legal abortion clinics will open eventually. It's inevitable. Also many GP's have said they won't and can't provide the service for various reasons. You can't hold a gun to their head.

Clinics will open and will encourage women to abort, that is their business and profit model.

You didn't address the point I made you changed it and that's the reason I raised a new point in the first place!.

Cabaal · 23-05-2018 03:59PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Interesting the people involved in abortion law and abortion doctors turn against it so often. ]

Equally interesting how many pro life people change their mind when faced with reality,
whats your point?

i'd suggest also not using America has some sort of example, pro life groups have no issue fire bombing property, murdering doctors and funding legal defenses for the person who murders the doctor (in church, infront of his wife and children)

uptherebels · 23-05-2018 03:59PM

greenpilot wrote: »

They are not for changing.

Well with no American money you need to prioritize. Why waste resources and time banging your head against a wall trying to convince those who can't be?

gmisk · 23-05-2018 04:00PM

greenpilot wrote: »

I Live and work in darkest Roscommon and, frankly, I am worried about a win for the Yes side tomorrow. On every post and pillar there are NO posters and a real lack of Yes ones. I have only been canvassed once and this was by a bunch of religious types. Not one Yes Canvasser. I think that if the Yes side lose, it will be entirely their own fault. I believe that they have taken their foot off the pedal in rural areas and this is a mistake. Most in rural Ireland who is over 55 is going to vote No. Look at their demographic. Older, religious, still bending a knee or lifting a cap to the local Priest/Bank Manager/Teacher. God fearing simple folk who are afraid of change.
The Yes said had been complacent about canvassing the Yes side in rural parts and this will be their downfall. You see, these folks vote. I know of three women in their 80's, originally from Dublin and living in Roscommon who are hopping on a train first thing on Friday to go up to vote No.
If Yes voters are complacent about voting, then it will not pass. If Yes want this to pass, the message is, whether you need to crawl on your hands and knees, be sure to vote.
The Yes side have forgotten about the Rural demographic. Big mistake. They are not for changing.

If Yes voters are complacent about voting, then it will not pass. If Yes want this to pass, the message is, whether you need to crawl on your hands and knees, be sure to vote.

I totally agree, i personally wouldnt pay too much attention when it comes to posters I would say at least twice as many no ones even in Dublin.
There are people canvassing in Roscommon but maybe not the number to cover everywhere, I saw that Professor Louise Kenny was joining a canvas down there and there is a bus coming from Dublin to help out.
https://twitter.com/rosforchoice

amcalester · 23-05-2018 04:00PM

Just her wrote: »

I'd just like to add to that, a lot of pressure comes in from partners and parents to go for abortion as well. The reality isn't women making this decision all alone, there are often parties around them who instead of showing support for them to go ahead with their pregnancies and they will help them, will be pressurising them into abortion

Well what we have now is the exact opposite, people pressuring women to keep their babies under the guise of "we'll support you" and then nothing once the child is born.

Neither is ideal.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 04:00PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

OK here's a new point.

What about women who regret the abortion and think it was a terrible decision?.

They might perhaps be on the fence as such with the pregnancy decision, are they are heavily pressurized by abortion clinics to terminate.

They are numerous websites of women who regret the decision like this Irish one http://womenhurt.ie/
and numerous websites exposing the pressure abortion clinics (for profit business in essence) put on women to terminate the pregnancy.

https://savethestorks.com/2017/11/went-abortion-clinic-herded-like-animals-women-exposing-truth-abortion/?nabe=5788403127025664:0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

How about abortion clinics texting and ringing women who perhaps might have changed their mind and decided to keep the baby?. It happens (by the largest abortion clinic provider in the Uk no less.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/8771141/Women-will-be-texted-reminders-about-their-abortion.html

Personally I think it is disgraceful disgusting behavior that abortion clinics will pressurize women to abort but their are numerous stories from all over the World on this happening.

So let's discuss.

People regret the choices they make with regularity though. That also includes regret of having children. You can also regret more mundane things such as investing in real estate so should that be made illegal because some people regretted their outcomes?

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 04:00PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Ah yes, because every woman get super excited about the prospect of abortion

Combine that with Harrisomania and you’ve got yourself a hot date!

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 04:01PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

No you know that will legal abortion clinics will open eventually. It's inevitable. Also many GP's have said they won't and can't provide the service for various reasons. You can't hold a gun to their head.

Clinics will open and will encourage women to abort, that is their business and profit model.

You didn't address the point I made you changed it and that's the reason I raised a new point in the first place!.

And many GPs will. the numbers required for a private abortion clinic to be profitable are just not there.

hatrickpatrick · 23-05-2018 04:01PM

Let me add to this: everyone makes the argument (let's say, regarding DS) that if a particular foetus was aborted, then a currently living human being wouldn't be here. That's been an effective emotive argument for the no side. However, I could equally counter with "if the father of that kid had decided to have one more w@nk than usual that week before having sex, that currently living human being also wouldn't be here". The egg would have been fertilised by an entirely different sperm with a different selection of the fathers' genes, and therefore the resulting baby, if it was born, would be an entirely different individual human.

This, indeed, is why Catholicism always regarded both masturbation and condom use as evil and wrong, but nobody is seriously talking about making it illegal or unconstitutional to have a cheeky tug.

I personally don't believe "new life" to suddenly exist because two random halves of a human DNA sequence have fused together and started making proteins. I believe life to begin far later than this, at around the time a viable baby with a viable brain (viable as in capable of survival outside the womb) has formed. Whatever else one might argue, this has not happened by twelve weeks, which is why I regard the whole idea of abortion on demand vs for specific reasons as meaningless - there simply isn't anything there of objective philosophical value at that stage, so I for one literally couldn't care less if a woman chooses to terminate because she was raped or because she doesn't want to miss a mad drinking holiday she's booked with her friends. Because I personally don't believe a life to exist at that time, I simply don't believe that there is any "person" involved in that decision except the person who is choosing whether or not she wants to carry a pregnancy and give birth to a baby, with all of the various issues associated with that.

But as I say, this has been taboo to discuss, so unfortunately we'll never get to see it played out. I would love to have seen a debate between someone who is voting no because they believe a foetus to be an individual human vs someone who believes that it absolutely is not, wherein the yes voter bluntly counters "there are two individuals' human rights to consider" with "no, there aren't". I'd be interested to see how such a debate would play out.

As I say, I'm only speaking from instinct and anecdotal evidence when I make this prediction, but I believe that (a) there are far more people who hold this view regarding the lack of objective value to an early term foetus than have been recognised by polling etc, and that (b) ultimately that ideology is what will carry this referendum and result in a yes victory. But sure, we'll see one way or another in just a few days.

uptherebels · 23-05-2018 04:02PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

No you know that will legal abortion clinics will open eventually. It's inevitable. Also many GP's have said they won't and can't provide the service for various reasons. You can't hold a gun to their head.

Clinics will open and will encourage women to abort, that is their business and profit model.

You didn't address the point I made you changed it and that's the reason I raised a new point in the first place!.

Again private business need customers to make profit. GP have said they need training before they can provide it.
Again most abortions will be two pills not much profit there but hey keep banging that drum.

Grayson · 23-05-2018 04:03PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

OK here's a new point.

What about women who regret the abortion and think it was a terrible decision?.

They might perhaps be on the fence as such with the pregnancy decision, are they are heavily pressurized by abortion clinics to terminate.

They are numerous websites of women who regret the decision like this Irish one http://womenhurt.ie/
and numerous websites exposing the pressure abortion clinics (for profit business in essence) put on women to terminate the pregnancy.

https://savethestorks.com/2017/11/went-abortion-clinic-herded-like-animals-women-exposing-truth-abortion/?nabe=5788403127025664:0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

How about abortion clinics texting and ringing women who perhaps might have changed their mind and decided to keep the baby?. It happens (by the largest abortion clinic provider in the Uk no less.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/8771141/Women-will-be-texted-reminders-about-their-abortion.html

Personally I think it is disgraceful disgusting behavior that abortion clinics will pressurize women to abort but their are numerous stories from all over the World on this happening.

So let's discuss.

If you're saying that women have the right to choose without being pressured or forced to commit to a path that may not want, or may have negative effects later, then I agree with you.

Women should neither be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy or pressured to end it. It should be their choice.

BTW, 95% of women don't regret it
http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion-regret-reproductive-health/

Trasna1 · 23-05-2018 04:03PM

Overheal wrote: »

People regret the choices they make with regularity though. That also includes regret of having children. You can also regret more mundane things such as investing in real estate so should that be made illegal because some people regretted their outcomes?

There was an interesting thread here a few months ago about whether or not people regretted having their children. If I recall correctly almost no one did.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 23-05-2018 04:03PM

About women regretting abortions: that's awful. We should do all we can to make sure women are making informed decisions, not under duress, and not under avoidable external pressures. So, let them deal with their own doctor, in their own country, own community, and not put them in a position where panic combined with time pressure complicates the situation. If a woman is regretting an abortion, make sure there is help available for her and she knows it's available. Make sure she won't think she'll be in trouble for seeking help.

British clinics pressuring women: let's get them out of those clinics and treat them at home.

Text reminders for abortion: I get text reminders for all medical appointments and a lot of other appointments. It's a real reach to use that as...what's it even supposed to be?

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 04:04PM

Just her wrote: »

I'd just like to add to that, a lot of pressure comes in from partners and parents to go for abortion as well. The reality isn't women making this decision all alone, there are often parties around them who instead of showing support for them to go ahead with their pregnancies and they will help them, will be pressurising them into abortion

What proof have you of this and please don't link some prolife page. I want to see real scientific proof from an independent source.

greenpilot · 23-05-2018 04:05PM

Billy86 wrote: »

For what solace it might be, and I don't intend this at all as a backhanded jab, but Roscommon/Leitrim if I recall was the only area to vote 'no' in 2015 on SSM.

My point exactly. An utter embarrassment.

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 04:07PM

Overheal wrote: »

How is what she said any less offensive than someone else sharing they’ll be voting yes? Didn’t really strike me as a post that was trying to convince others to do the same, just making a personal statement of intent.

What she stated was “I’m voting no because less lives will be lost”.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 04:08PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

And many GPs will. the numbers required for a private abortion clinic to be profitable are just not there.

It would seem that a simple way around this would be patients asking their GP if they’d prescribe and refer and if they say no then switch GP’s?

greenpilot · 23-05-2018 04:08PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Did you do any canvassing yourself?

No. I am rubbish at arguing a point.

ArmaniJeanss · 23-05-2018 04:09PM

greenpilot wrote: »

I Live and work in darkest Roscommon and, frankly, I am worried about a win for the Yes side tomorrow. On every post and pillar there are NO posters and a real lack of Yes ones. I have only been canvassed once and this was by a bunch of religious types. Not one Yes Canvasser. I think that if the Yes side lose, it will be entirely their own fault. I believe that they have taken their foot off the pedal in rural areas and this is a mistake. Most in rural Ireland who is over 55 is going to vote No. Look at their demographic. Older, religious, still bending a knee or lifting a cap to the local Priest/Bank Manager/Teacher. God fearing simple folk who are afraid of change.
The Yes said had been complacent about canvassing the Yes side in rural parts and this will be their downfall. You see, these folks vote. I know of three women in their 80's, originally from Dublin and living in Roscommon who are hopping on a train first thing on Friday to go up to vote No.
If Yes voters are complacent about voting, then it will not pass. If Yes want this to pass, the message is, whether you need to crawl on your hands and knees, be sure to vote.
The Yes side have forgotten about the Rural demographic. Big mistake. They are not for changing.

It's tough to canvass in rural Roscommon though, hard to get the numbers to do it and logistically difficult to get them to travel around.
So I wouldn't blame the canvassers too much.

There is a Roscommon For Yes on facebook, as part of Together for Yes. I think they have been reasonably active in the bigger population centres of the county.
You could contact them and see if you can help them/they can help you in anyway, there's still time as they say.

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 04:09PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Clinics will open and will encourage women to abort, that is their business and profit model.

Just like in Scotland, amirite?

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 04:10PM

greenpilot wrote: »

No. I am rubbish at arguing a point.

Well, not to be mean, if you don't join in you can hardly take shots at the people who do volunteer.

Just her · 23-05-2018 04:12PM

spookwoman wrote: »

What proof have you of this and please don't link some prolife page. I want to see real scientific proof from an independent source.

I was expecting a reply like that from someone.

Readers are intelligent enough to know that what I am saying is true. They won't need scientific proof. It's common sense.

....... · 23-05-2018 04:13PM

This post has been deleted.

DrumSteve · 23-05-2018 04:13PM

greenpilot wrote: »

My point exactly. An utter embarrassment.

TBF focusing on Dublin makes more sense for the Yes side; a decent sized estate up here with have the same population as Leitrim.

Cabaal · 23-05-2018 04:15PM

gmisk wrote: »

If anyone wants a little break from this thread......I recommend looking up the #hometovote on twitter, people are already starting their journeys to vote.
Pretty emotional stuff.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/hometovote

Thats emotional stuff,
Like the marriage equality ref, this week is history in the making

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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