The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Hooks Golf Handicap · 23-05-2018 09:52AM

Great read on the revisionist history of the No campaign & their 11th hour sinking ship back track.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/miriam-lord-stony-faced-silence-from-anti-abortion-absolutists-1.3504884

“I would ask those people, 30 years after that amendment was put into our Constitution, why in those 30 years has nobody put forward an alternative amendment that would deal with all of these hard cases? Why, only three days from the vote, are people suddenly raising that as a realistic argument and alternative?”

There was silence in the chamber. The Fianna Fáil TDs who are not backing their leader Micheál Martin’s position sat stony-faced. Not a peep out of one of them.

Which is when we contemplated our little chant about them all being very quiet over there.

But the Taoiseach filled the gap, answering for them.

Because what they are scrambling to propose “is not a realistic alternative; it is just a tactic”, declared Leo.

“And I believe the Irish people will see through that.”

Once again, not a sound from the people who turned a blind eye to the hard cases when they could have acted with reason and compassion. Because they knew in their hearts that the Taoiseach was speaking the truth.

They had 35 years to act on their concerns for women and their babies. Thirty-five years to do something about supporting the hard cases. Thirty-five years to show they care about more than just the fate of the foetus.

But they did nothing.

Now their bluff has been called and compassion is suddenly conjured up for the hard cases, along with more baseless predictions about floodgates opening and the whole country going to hell in a handcart.

They have cried wolf once too often.

Do they seriously expect anyone to believe anything they say anymore?

munsterlegend · 23-05-2018 09:53AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your earlier post suggested a woman could have an abortion for whatever reason she wanted which is why I asked you up to what point in the pregnancy? If both baby in the womb and mother are perfectly healthy at say 20 weeks would you allow an abortion?

....... · 23-05-2018 09:54AM

This post has been deleted.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 09:54AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Your earlier post suggested a woman could have an abortion for whatever reason she wanted which is why I asked you up to what point in the pregnancy? If both baby in the womb and mother are perfectly healthy at say 20 weeks would you allow an abortion?

I'm pretty sure the poster was talking about within the boundaries of the proposed legislation.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:54AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Your earlier post suggested a woman could have an abortion for whatever reason she wanted which is why I asked you up to what point in the pregnancy? If both baby in the womb and mother are perfectly healthy at say 20 weeks would you allow an abortion?

up to 12 weeks. How is that not clear to you? Nobody has asked for abortions at 20 weeks. The only abortions that happen at 20 weeks do so for medical reasons.

jimgoose · 23-05-2018 09:55AM

There are two separate and distinct issues here: one, the fact that the current piece of religious fundamentalist dogma commonly known as "The Eighth Amendment" has no business in Bunreacht na hÉireann and, two, the requirement to legislate properly for abortion.

As it so happens I agree with the current proposals. It occurs to me that the "No" campaigners, many of them women, do not trust women to know and do what is best for themselves, their families and their pregnancies. They're very similar to the anti-divorce crowd back in the day, many of them the same sort of oul' bat who has an apoplectic attack at the very mention of married or, Heavens preserve us, women priests. Their thinking seems to be that given the availability of abortion and divorce, the women of Ireland, simple creatures that they are shuregawdluvvuz, will go running off to do both with wild abandon and great gusto just because they're there. Hint: it didn't happen with divorce.

On a minor point of order, this "Sure isn't the morning-after pill there, isn't it sure!!" argument cracks me up every time I hear it. Proponents of this one are usually the same people who are convinced that life begins at conception. Another hint: conception can occur within a half-hour or so of sex, or less, or as late as the following day.

Another minor point of order: it is not possible under the Common Law to murder someone who has not yet been born.

uptherebels · 23-05-2018 09:55AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

But unfortunately for you and the rest of the right wing feminists I do get to have an opinion. I'm sure you are aware fathers have a part to play in this debate. This legislation is reckless. We are heading for a UK style abortion regime.

I predict the silent majority will win through on Friday, by a good margin.

VOTE NO

We already have a UK abortion regime as that is where we export our problem to.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 09:55AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Your earlier post suggested a woman could have an abortion for whatever reason she wanted which is why I asked you up to what point in the pregnancy? If both baby in the womb and mother are perfectly healthy at say 20 weeks would you allow an abortion?

To be fair, that’s not being proposed as an option. However in the US it’s third trimester that is usually the threshold where abortions are restricted and means tested. That happens beyond 24 weeks.

gmisk · 23-05-2018 09:55AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

When this referendum is over, we're going to have to come to terms with the "alt right" rock this has flipped over. It doesn't take much probing at all to knock off a lot of No masks and find rhetoric about birth rate decline and being "replaced". The flag on O Connell street yesterday surprised very few, I think.

Can I ask what the flag on O Connell street was about?

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 09:56AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Great logic. Sure women and men are not childminders either so when the child is born they shouldn't be expected to rear it. Have you a cut off time for termination of the life in the womb or does anything go up to 40 weeks?

Can you let me know what you will do to help with these children when they are born in that case? With parents that have severe drink and drug problems, mental health issues,

Just the other week in my job we had a situation where a child was born as the mother was still out of her head at the moment of giving birth, there is a strong feeling that child already has drug dependency issues. We also have pre-teens confined to wheelchairs with severe mental capacity issues who will be dead in the next 10-15 years due to their conditions and have been strongly suicidal since before they lost their last baby teeth because their lives offer nothing but misery. We have children whose parents never wanted them (often failed contraception), developed substance abuse issues because of the stress of children/pregnancy, and who now won't so much as visit those young children as they are literally dying of illnesses like brain cancer in hospital. We also have parents who are severely mentally impaired and were raped into pregnancy, whose families could not or would not facilitate a trip the UK and whose children are now in residential care units (as opposed to foster homes of which there is a severe shortage in Ireland) due to parental capacity issues and those same family members not willing to take them in, causing these kids to self harm a lot "because even mommy doesn't want me."

What will you be doing to help children and parents in situations like these, as you are on the side of 'love both' and don't want to give the option of abortion? What will you be doing for BOTH these parents AND their children?

Dressing gown · 23-05-2018 09:56AM

ohmiamy wrote: »

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been reading the 8th amendment threads for the past few weeks, trying to gague how the vote may go. Reading some of the comments from the no side has made me absolutely despair to be a young woman in Ireland today. The whole debate is an incredibly emotive issue for me, as I was raped when I was in my 2nd year of college. I became pregnant as a result. I was too far along to take abortion pills and didn't have enough money to travel for an abortion. So I was forced to continue the pregnancy. Being pregnant was the worst time of my life, and everyday I wished that something would go wrong and the baby would die. Or I would die. I didn't really care either way. Childbirth was a horrendously painful experience that has scarred my body for the rest of my life. Recently, no campaigners called to my door and I told them my story. They said that they were sorry that I was raped but that the baby had been an innocent victim and wasn't I delighted now to have a beautiful little girl. They never once considered the actual victim standing in front of them, the woman who had been punished for being attacked. No campaigners have absolutely no answer for people like me. Instead we get to watch people like Fidelma Healy-Eames say that there should be legislation for cases of rape and FFA but refuses to answer whether she would actually vote for that. And we all know that she wouldn't! I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy and I am hoping with every bone in my body that we have a yes vote when the result comes in. A woman should have a right to make the right decision for her, without interference from people who don't give a damn about what happens to her. For every woman that I know, and the women that I don't, for my friends and their future daughters, for myself and my daughter, repeal the 8th!!

I’m very sorry you went through this. I’m also sorry the State turned it’s back on you. I’m also sorry that anyone can dismiss circumstances like yours as collateral damage. I fail to see any love in that attitude. Like you I hope for my daughters that they grow up in an Ireland that cares for all of its living breathing Citizen’s.

_Dara_ · 23-05-2018 09:56AM

Hey all, going to duck out of this thread now. It’s been a bracing, stimulating thread to partake in but I’ve had my fill and am just ready to vote now. I’ve said and read all I need to. Thanks to all the contributors, a trojan effort all round.

LuckyLloyd · 23-05-2018 09:56AM

The same people campaigning for a No vote now were opposed to the 2013 POLUPA; they were for removing suicide as a reason for abortion in 2002 and 1992; they were against the right to travel and information in 1992. If NO was the result on Friday and we came back in five years with some magical constitutional contorting on Rape and FFA they would damn well oppose that too.

I bet you they were also against Marriage Equality and Divorce while you're at it. **** the whole lot of them: they'll say anything to uphold their cold absolutist moralism.

jill_valentine · 23-05-2018 09:57AM

gmisk wrote: »

Can I ask what the flag on O Connell street was about?

https://mobile.twitter.com/FintanOToolbox/status/998947413095264257

This is a neo Nazi flag.

Dressing gown · 23-05-2018 09:58AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Can you let me know what you will do to help with these children when they are born in that case? With parents that have severe drink and drug problems, mental health issues,

Just the other week in my job we had a situation where a child was born as the mother was still out of her head at the moment of giving birth, there is a strong feeling that child already has drug dependency issues. We also have pre-teens confined to wheelchairs with severe mental capacity issues who will be dead in the next 10-15 years due to their conditions and have been strongly suicidal since before they lost their last baby teeth because their lives offer nothing but misery. We have children whose parents never wanted them (often failed contraception), developed substance abuse issues because of the stress of children/pregnancy, and who now won't so much as visit those young children as they are literally dying of illnesses like brain cancer in hospital. We also have parents who are severely mentally impaired and were raped into pregnancy, whose families could not or would not facilitate a trip the UK and whose children are now in residential care units (as opposed to foster homes of which there is a severe shortage in Ireland) due to parental capacity issues and those same family members not willing to take them in, causing these kids to self harm a lot "because even mommy doesn't want me."

What will you be doing to help children and parents in situations like these, as you are on the side of 'love both' and don't want to give the option of abortion? What will you be doing for BOTH these parents AND their children?

A compelling read. Thank you for being a voice for those actual children and explaining what happens to many children of forced pregnancies.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:59AM

gmisk wrote: »

Can I ask what the flag on O Connell street was about?

It was the Kekistan flag they had on display. Started off on 4Chan and has been adopted by the alt-right.

rgace · 23-05-2018 09:59AM

Something I am not clear on myself so I have ventured into this madhouse.

We are voting to remove any rights for a foetus from the constitution, so what reasoning is there for preventing a termination after 12 weeks?

Would this leave the legislation open to a challenge in the courts?

Cabaal · 23-05-2018 10:01AM

uptherebels wrote: »

We already have a UK abortion regime as that is where we export our problem to.

It seems the no side trust Westminister more then they trust the Irish government...thats very odd

ohmiamy · 23-05-2018 10:01AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Your story is compelling and very sad, I am a "No to the current proposals" voter. I have stated before cases like yours need to be handled with compassion and understanding. On demand abortion proposed by the government is a step to far to deal with the 1% of cases involving rape and FFA.

I have one question, I hope I am not being insensitive. As you look at your daughter today as a person I am sure you love and care about, with hindsight and all the experience you have now, if you could go back and terminate the pregnancy would you?

I do not see how legislation could be brought in solely for cases of rape and FFA. Rape cases in this country can take years to go through the courts. If a woman had to testify that she was raped so soon after the event, in order to receive an abortion here, then we risk compounding her trauma even further. I also believe that a lot of no campaigners say that they would support abortion in cases of rape or FFA because it sounds better than saying "we actually believe that every woman, or child, should be forced to go through with their pregnancy, no matter what their circumstances." In reality, they know that it would be almost impossible to legislate for.

I love my daughter more than anything, which is why I want her to grow up in a country where she doesn't have to suffer as I have suffered. I want her to have a choice, should she ever need it. If I could go back and terminate, yes I think I would. I was forced to leave my college course and I now struggle to make ends meet every day. That does not mean that I don't love my daughter, but her being born left me suicidal and in all honesty, the pregnancy and realisation that I would now have to care for this child that I had not wanted for the rest of my life, affected my mental health far more than the rape.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 10:01AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/FintanOToolbox/status/998947413095264257

This is a neo Nazi flag.

Maybe what happened was Fintan handed those flags out and quickly took pictures of the pro-life group with the flags so it just seemed like they were supporting the flag...

Oh no, wait, that was John McGuirk...

Calina · 23-05-2018 10:02AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Not necessarily. An amendment could be put into the constitution allowing for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as rape etc. I don't think this will be necessary as I think Yes will win in the 60-40 range and maybe higher.

Lots of things could have been done over the last 35 years. They weren't. And to be quite honest, dropping amendment after amendment into the constitution to make up for what was appalling law in 1983 is a complete lack of respect for the text as a basic law for the country.

Quite frankly the prolife army wouldn't tolerate any amendment that deals with allowing abortion. They screamed blue murder about the limited law we have which arose as a result of their precious prolife amendment. Eames said she'd vote against any such amendment just after suggesting it was a solution. Sherlock and O'Brien have both said they are against abortions for 12 year ol girls who are pregnant as a result of rape.

If you think people who are against abortion will tolerate any other amendment if they manage to con the people of Ireland into voting no on Friday, you're dreaming. A bunch more women are going to have to die before there is any other chance of an amendment to cater for the hard cases, hard cases which are a direct result of the 1983 amendment. The amendment is the cause, not the symptom.

gmisk · 23-05-2018 10:03AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/FintanOToolbox/status/998947413095264257

This is a neo Nazi flag.

Wow! Pretty terrible.

I do know the No side were handing out fascist flags to people at a repeal march, really low stuff.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 10:03AM

rgace wrote: »

Something I am not clear on myself so I have ventured into this madhouse.

We are voting to remove any rights for a foetus from the constitution, so what reasoning is there for preventing a termination after 12 weeks?

Would this leave the legislation open to a challenge in the courts?

Legislation that would become law.

No more than any other legislation/law in the country.

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 10:03AM

retro:electro wrote: »

NO.

Excellent, I have swung one voter. Makes all the difference!

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 10:03AM

rgace wrote: »

Something I am not clear on myself so I have ventured into this madhouse.

We are voting to remove any rights for a foetus from the constitution, so what reasoning is there for preventing a termination after 12 weeks?

Would this leave the legislation open to a challenge in the courts?

After 12 weeks an abortion would only be allowed if the pregnancy was causing serious problems for the mental or physical health of the mother. I dont have the exact wording to hand. 12 weeks was picked because we have to pick A point and 12 weeks was the best compromise. I cant see any basis for challenging the proposed legislation.

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 10:05AM

ohmiamy wrote: »

I do not see how legislation could be brought in solely for cases of rape and FFA. Rape cases in this country can take years to go through the courts. If a woman had to testify that she was raped so soon after the event, in order to receive an abortion here, then we risk compounding her trauma even further. I also believe that a lot of no campaigners say that they would support abortion in cases of rape or FFA because it sounds better than saying "we actually believe that every woman, or child, should be forced to go through with their pregnancy, no matter what their circumstances." In reality, they know that it would be almost impossible to legislate for.

Now I have no idea of this. The impression I got off Peadar last night was all you had to do was give a signed statement to the police in order to access an abortion in Germany. It wouldn't be required if the person was under age.
Or did I imagine it?

It doesn't seem like the best system but it's there.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 10:10AM

rgace wrote: »

Something I am not clear on myself so I have ventured into this madhouse.

We are voting to remove any rights for a foetus from the constitution, so what reasoning is there for preventing a termination after 12 weeks?

Would this leave the legislation open to a challenge in the courts?

You mean could someone challenge the 12 week on request timeframe as being too restrictive? I can't see on what basis a challenge would succeed.

As I see it, a person bringing a challenge would have to show three things; i) that the 12 week limit contravenes their legal or constitutional rights, ii) such a contravention is disproportionate to the aims of the legislation, and iii) the only remedy to that contravention is to extend or outright remove the 12 week timeframe.

Someone might be able to argue i), but I think they'll find it hard to properly argue ii) or iii). The role of the Oireachtas is to legislate, and the courts won't interfere with that unless there is a very persuasive case being made.

pleas advice · 23-05-2018 10:11AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It was the Kekistan flag they had on display. Started off on 4Chan and has been adopted by the alt-right.

I'd say it was planted there

juanjo · 23-05-2018 10:11AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Excellent, I have swung one voter. Makes all the difference!

And this guys is how the NO misdirection strategy works!

ohmiamy · 23-05-2018 10:13AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Now I have no idea of this. The impression I got off Peadar last night was all you had to do was give a signed statement to the police in order to access an abortion in Germany. It wouldn't be required if the person was under age.
Or did I imagine it?

It doesn't seem like the best system but it's there.

The abortion situation in Germany is very complicated. Abortion is technically illegal there but it is unprosecutable as far as I know. A woman must attend counselling and there she obtains an abortion certificate. She then returns 3 days later for the termination to be performed. Abortion in Germany is performed in the first trimester. So the waiting period and time limit is quite similar to the proposal here.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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