The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 09:32AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Well it can as you have accepted but you don't believe it will solve the issue.

The constitution can have any amendment the people of Ireland will agree on. It doesn't mean it will be a valid way of fixing the problems currently in the constitution, nor does it mean that a repeal of the 8th isn't the way forward.

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:33AM

ohmiamy wrote: »

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been reading the 8th amendment threads for the past few weeks, trying to gague how the vote may go. Reading some of the comments from the no side has made me absolutely despair to be a young woman in Ireland today. The whole debate is an incredibly emotive issue for me, as I was raped when I was in my 2nd year of college. I became pregnant as a result. I was too far along to take abortion pills and didn't have enough money to travel for an abortion. So I was forced to continue the pregnancy. Being pregnant was the worst time of my life, and everyday I wished that something would go wrong and the baby would die. Or I would die. I didn't really care either way. Childbirth was a horrendously painful experience that has scarred my body for the rest of my life. Recently, no campaigners called to my door and I told them my story. They said that they were sorry that I was raped but that the baby had been an innocent victim and wasn't I delighted now to have a beautiful little girl. They never once considered the actual victim standing in front of them, the woman who had been punished for being attacked. No campaigners have absolutely no answer for people like me. Instead we get to watch people like Fidelma Healy-Eames say that there should be legislation for cases of rape and FFA but refuses to answer whether she would actually vote for that. And we all know that she wouldn't! I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy and I am hoping with every bone in my body that we have a yes vote when the result comes in. A woman should have a right to make the right decision for her, without interference from people who don't give a damn about what happens to her. For every woman that I know, and the women that I don't, for my friends and their future daughters, for myself and my daughter, repeal the 8th!!

Your story is compelling and very sad, I am a "No to the current proposals" voter. I have stated before cases like yours need to be handled with compassion and understanding. On demand abortion proposed by the government is a step to far to deal with the 1% of cases involving rape and FFA.

I have one question, I hope I am not being insensitive. As you look at your daughter today as a person I am sure you love and care about, with hindsight and all the experience you have now, if you could go back and terminate the pregnancy would you?

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 09:33AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why? There might be sufficient demand for one in Dublin. Might. and so what if there is?

Did I say I had an issue with one opening?
It was just a question I heard being asked and nobody could really give a straight answer to it because everybody was unsure.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 09:33AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Not necessarily. An amendment could be put into the constitution allowing for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as rape etc. I don't think this will be necessary as I think Yes will win in the 60-40 range and maybe higher.

It can't. Not properly anyway. Of all the lawyers and legislators that say this could be done, not a single one of them has shown us how. No one has been able to actually produce this alternative constitutional text that would properly address these matters.

If we want to deal with exceptional cases, it has to be in legislation, not the constitution. And the only way to get that legislation is to vote Yes on Friday, otherwise it's the status quo.

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ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:34AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Well it can as you have accepted but you don't believe it will solve the issue.

It wont solve the issue. The 8th has to go. And even if it did the No campaign would campaign against it.

munsterlegend · 23-05-2018 09:34AM

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Great logic. Sure women and men are not childminders either so when the child is born they shouldn't be expected to rear it. Have you a cut off time for termination of the life in the womb or does anything go up to 40 weeks?

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jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:36AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I would argue that its considerably more selfish to bring a child you cannot afford to feed into the world, or a child born into neglect/poverty/addiction issues/a house with domestic violence/mental health issues.

All of the above would be classed by you as "lifestyle reasons".

Children should be loved and adored and nurtured and cherished and I see no benefit in forcing an unwilling woman to have a child she does not want just to keep YOU happy.

Being born at all costs is seen as a victory by you, but you don't give a cr*p about what kind of lives these kids are born into.
It certainly isn't in the best interests of children. Not very pro-life of you.

By your rational all children already born into such circumstances should be removed from their parents and executed. Why allow them to live in such conditions. You are trying to solve deep societal problems with abortion. Fix the causes of poverty etc, don't use abortion as a blunt instrument to "protect" children from poverty.

copeyhagen · 23-05-2018 09:36AM

i will be voting yes, but I respect peoples views and beliefs that swing them to vote no.

what I don't respect is these gob****es standing on every ****in motorway overpass holding up pictures of fookin 2 year old children trying to force 'vote no' down peoples throats.

I travel the country for work and have only seen no voters doing this ****e tbh.

jill_valentine · 23-05-2018 09:36AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not odd, fully expected from this "new right" movement. Shout loud, run away when challenged, play the victim card, shout loud when left alone again about being ignored, ignore all facts and make them out as the enemy so you attract people easily duped solely by emotion, ignore all facts because your base don't care about them, shout loud, run away when challenged, play the victim card...

On and on and on. All that Cambridge analytica work for Trump and brexit gave a very clear roadmap for how to use this nonsense, and this is the larger concern beyond this referendum that has been brought to light in recent months.

When this referendum is over, we're going to have to come to terms with the "alt right" rock this has flipped over. It doesn't take much probing at all to knock off a lot of No masks and find rhetoric about birth rate decline and being "replaced". The flag on O Connell street yesterday surprised very few, I think.

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Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 09:37AM

ohmiamy wrote: »

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been reading the 8th amendment threads for the past few weeks, trying to gague how the vote may go. Reading some of the comments from the no side has made me absolutely despair to be a young woman in Ireland today. The whole debate is an incredibly emotive issue for me, as I was raped when I was in my 2nd year of college. I became pregnant as a result. I was too far along to take abortion pills and didn't have enough money to travel for an abortion. So I was forced to continue the pregnancy. Being pregnant was the worst time of my life, and everyday I wished that something would go wrong and the baby would die. Or I would die. I didn't really care either way. Childbirth was a horrendously painful experience that has scarred my body for the rest of my life. Recently, no campaigners called to my door and I told them my story. They said that they were sorry that I was raped but that the baby had been an innocent victim and wasn't I delighted now to have a beautiful little girl. They never once considered the actual victim standing in front of them, the woman who had been punished for being attacked. No campaigners have absolutely no answer for people like me. Instead we get to watch people like Fidelma Healy-Eames say that there should be legislation for cases of rape and FFA but refuses to answer whether she would actually vote for that. And we all know that she wouldn't! I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy and I am hoping with every bone in my body that we have a yes vote when the result comes in. A woman should have a right to make the right decision for her, without interference from people who don't give a damn about what happens to her. For every woman that I know, and the women that I don't, for my friends and their future daughters, for myself and my daughter, repeal the 8th!!

I’m very sorry for what you went through, it sounds truly horrific. The no side has shown a complete lack of compassion for women in your situation. I know how easy it is to transpose your personal circumstances into this debate, so I can only imagine how hard it is to hear yourself being spoken about in that way. Take care of yourself, we’re almost there.

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:38AM

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An here come the raging feminazis who will do what ever they want just because I wont have any man tell me what to do. Grow up and look at the reality of the situation, abortion for lifestyle reasons is wrong, you can call it morality but I would also attach a little bit of scientific fact about what abortion is destroying.

freshpopcorn · 23-05-2018 09:39AM

copeyhagen wrote: »

i will be voting yes, but I respect peoples views and beliefs that swing them to vote no.

what I don't respect is these gob****es standing on every ****in motorway overpass holding up pictures of fookin 2 year old children trying to force 'vote no' down peoples throats.

I travel the country for work and have only seen no voters doing this ****e tbh.

I saw Yes do it Cork Yesterday on Twitter but obviously they only had Yes signs!(Can't stand either side doing this)

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ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 09:40AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

An here come the raging feminazis who will do what ever they want just because I wont have any man tell me what to do. Grow up and look at the reality of the situation, abortion for lifestyle reasons is wrong, you can call it morality but I would also attach a little bit of scientific fact about what abortion is destroying.

you mean the foetus that lacks sentience?

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 09:41AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

An here come the raging feminazis who will do what ever they want just because I wont have any man tell me what to do. Grow up and look at the reality of the situation, abortion for lifestyle reasons is wrong, you can call it morality but I would also attach a little bit of scientific fact about what abortion is destroying.

The poster didn't specify gender.

What scientific fact would that be?

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:42AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

By your rational all children already born into such circumstances should be removed from their parents and executed. Why allow them to live in such conditions. You are trying to solve deep societal problems with abortion. Fix the causes of poverty etc, don't use abortion as a blunt instrument to "protect" children from poverty.

You're having a laugh. What a load of absolute hyperbole. If this wasn't such a serious issue it would be funny.

To confirm, no I don't believe children born into such circumstances should be executed

The difference in your scenario, is the parents and willing and wanting the child.
They are doing their best.

I see no logic in forcing people who don't want to be parents, to be parents. It doesn't have the best interests of children at heart.

The No side have had 35 years to improve conditions for parents and children in need. It hasn't happened. I'm not waiting another 35 years while they go back to pretending it isn't happening.

4k women are having abortions every year. They need healthcare and support in their own country and don't need the likes of YOU shaming them when you have no idea of their circumstances and you'll never have to walk in their shoes.

Worry about your wifes uterus. Leave everyone else's alone. You shouldn't get to have an opinion.

jill_valentine · 23-05-2018 09:45AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Abortion for lifestyle reasons is not healthcare. Fact

A medical abortion is statistically safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. So somebody opting not to take those risks with their body, health or life for any reason at all is very much a healthcare issue.

juanjo · 23-05-2018 09:45AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

By your rational all children already born into such circumstances should be removed from their parents and executed. Why allow them to live in such conditions. You are trying to solve deep societal problems with abortion. Fix the causes of poverty etc, don't use abortion as a blunt instrument to "protect" children from poverty.

That is a reductio ad absurdum fallacy. No one is talking about executing living children.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 09:46AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

An here come the raging feminazis who will do what ever they want just because I wont have any man tell me what to do. Grow up and look at the reality of the situation, abortion for lifestyle reasons is wrong, you can call it morality but I would also attach a little bit of scientific fact about what abortion is destroying.

the absolute irony of someone using that phrase telling someone to grow up :rolleyes:

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 09:46AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You're having a laugh. What a load of absolute hyperbole. If this wasn't such a serious issue it would be funny.

To confirm, no I don't believe children born into such circumstances should be executed
The difference in your scenario, is the parents and willing and wanting the child.
They are doing their best.

I see no logic in forcing people who don't want to be parents, to be parents. It doesn't have the best interests of children at heart.

The No side have had 35 years to improve conditions for parents and children in need. It hasn't happened. I'm not waiting another 35 years while they go back to pretending it isn't happening.

4k women are having abortions every year. They need healthcare and support in their own country and don't need the likes of YOU shaming them when you have no idea of their circumstances and you'll never have to walk in their shoes.

Worry about your wifes uterus. Leave everyone else's alone. You shouldn't get to have an opinion.

But unfortunately for you and the rest of the right wing feminists I do get to have an opinion. I'm sure you are aware fathers have a part to play in this debate. This legislation is reckless. We are heading for a UK style abortion regime.

I predict the silent majority will win through on Friday, by a good margin.

VOTE NO

Movementarian · 23-05-2018 09:47AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Your story is compelling and very sad, I am a "No to the current proposals" voter. I have stated before cases like yours need to be handled with compassion and understanding. On demand abortion proposed by the government is a step to far to deal with the 1% of cases involving rape and FFA.

I have one question, I hope I am not being insensitive. As you look at your daughter today as a person I am sure you love and care about, with hindsight and all the experience you have now, if you could go back and terminate the pregnancy would you?

Handled with care and compassion eh? But not by giving her full options to choose what she wants to do?

And again with the on demand language. You listen to that story and your response is basically 'oh thats sad, but dont you love your daughter and would you choose to do it?'

Missing the point entirely imo, would never presume to ask someone that question or answer it but it speaks to your mindset.

This is simply about choice and options, some will choose to do it, others won't. That story and your response speaks tragic volumes about whats wrong with this entire issue. All she and anyone else wants is to have the choice. You voting no is not treating anyone with care and compassion, you are literally absolving yourself and this country of having to deal with this issue.

Where was this care and compassion over the past 30 plus years? Where were the calls for rape legislation if thats truly what you think? Nowhere. Pure hypocrasy to suddenly now act like its all care and support now that the real thing is on the table. Do the right thing and vote yes. Give the women of Ireland the rights they have been denied for...well..ever!

Greysquirel09 · 23-05-2018 09:48AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the polling is not done based on online discussions.

Yes I know.

smokingman · 23-05-2018 09:48AM

So when this is all over, can we then start the investigation into love both ties to the nazi parties in Germany and the US that Justin Barret did a talk for their conventions?

ArmaniJeanss · 23-05-2018 09:49AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Wow. Where do the YES side get all the feminazis!!

jjmcclure wrote: »

An here come the raging feminazis who will do what ever they want just because I wont have any man tell me what to do.

I'm kinda cringing for you now.

SusieBlue · 23-05-2018 09:50AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

But unfortunately for you and the rest of the right wing feminists I do get to have an opinion. I'm sure you are aware fathers have a part to play in this debate. This legislation is reckless. We are heading for a UK style abortion regime.

I predict the silent majority will win through on Friday, by a good margin.

VOTE NO

The irony if you proudly defending to have a right to have a say in MY healthcare. You know nothing of my circumstances and should never, ever get to have a say in my healthcare.

Fathers play a very important role, their wives or daughters could be adversely effected by these barbaric laws.
I'm sure you've seen many of the regular posters here outraged by the way their loved ones have been treated by Ireland.

We already have a UK style abortion regime, because we export all our abortion services to that specific foreign healthcare system. If you feel the UK system is too liberal, you need to vote Yes.

One day, if a crisis pregnancy knocks on your door, or someone you love is effected by our laws, you will be glad people like me voted Yes for people like you.

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Ken. · 23-05-2018 09:51AM

Mod-Your right to have an opinion will be removed if you speak to someone like that again.

SusieBlue wrote: »

You shouldn't get to have an opinion.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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