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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #4142
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is certainly no misogyny or disregard for women on my part given i believe they have a right to be born in the first place. a right to be born, a right to life, a right to grow up, a right to equality.

    fair enough, i get that, but it's a natural occurrence and it's tragic for all involved. i don't believe it can be compared to abortion where the life is deliberately ended when it could continue in most.

    It really is misogyny. Man rapes woman....woman becomes pregnant...woman must endure the pregnancy and become responsible for rapists off spring. I've never encountered any one who thinks a rape victim should be forced to continue with the pregnancy against their wishes. That really is a harsh extreme view. I always thought when it came to abortion the one thing we all agreed on was that it was a shame when it came to rape victims that they don't have the option to have an abortion. I never thought there were people who thought the woman must continue with the pregnancy.

    I've explained time and time again that the reason I mentioned miscarriage was to illustrate how the first trimester unborn feotus is not equal to a living thing. Their deaths are not investigated as a living person's would be and they are not marked socially like a living person's would be.


  • #4143
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,740 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It really is misogyny. Man rapes woman....woman becomes pregnant...woman must endure the pregnancy and become responsible for rapists off spring. I've never encountered any one who thinks a rape victim should be forced to continue with the pregnancy against their wishes. That really is a harsh extreme view. I always thought when it came to abortion the one thing we all agreed on was that it was a shame when it came to rape victims that they don't have the option to have an abortion. I never thought there were people who thought the woman must continue with the pregnancy.

    the view is held on the basis that the unborn, like the mother, are not in any way responsible for the rape and their conception, and that the unborn should not lose their life because their father was vermin. that the woman must get all support possible. i don't think that recognising both lives in this situation is harsh or extreme. both are victims of the father after all.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #4144
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It really is misogyny. Man rapes woman....woman becomes pregnant...woman must endure the pregnancy and become responsible for rapists off spring. I've never encountered any one who thinks a rape victim should be forced to continue with the pregnancy against their wishes. That really is a harsh extreme view. I always thought when it came to abortion the one thing we all agreed on was that it was a shame when it came to rape victims that they don't have the option to have an abortion. I never thought there were people who thought the woman must continue with the pregnancy.

    I've explained time and time again that the reason I mentioned miscarriage was to illustrate how the first trimester unborn feotus is not equal to a living thing. Their deaths are not investigated as a living person's would be and they are not marked socially like a living person's would be.

    Trying to compare a miscarriage to abortion is odd in the extreme.
    One is a natural event, the other is the willful destruction of a life.

    Should the miscarried foetus be treated differently. That's another debate for another thread. We're discussing the willful destruction of a human foetus and whether a Christian can destroy it.
    Scripture is clear that God knows us from the womb and that we are wonderfully created by Him.
    God speaks of calling people to His service from the womb.
    Abortion is nothing but the willful destruction of God's creation and a twarting of God's purposes for that creation.
    You can disagree with it all you like but that's a biblical perspective and as this is the Christianity forum that's the one that stands.....here at least.


  • #4145
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Trying to compare a miscarriage to abortion is odd in the extreme.
    One is a natural event, the other is the willful destruction of a life.

    Should the miscarried foetus be treated differently. That's another debate for another thread. We're discussing the willful destruction of a human foetus and whether a Christian can destroy it.
    Scripture is clear that God knows us from the womb and that we are wonderfully created by Him.
    God speaks of calling people to His service from the womb.
    Abortion is nothing but the willful destruction of God's creation and a twarting of God's purposes for that creation.
    You can disagree with it all you like but that's a biblical perspective and as this is the Christianity forum that's the one that stands.....here at least.

    I'm sorry but your post reads that this is a Christian thread and no discussion or argument will be allowed because it says so in the bible.

    While I no longer prescribe to the catholic church, I consider myself to have many Christian beliefs and shutting down discussion is not one of them as I wouldn't be closed minded enough to do so. I argue my point and I call people up on theirs and am always open to correction. So I'm Christian and will be voting for abortion as I believe it's the correct thing to do in terms of compassion for women under difficult circumstances.
    Just because it says so in the bible is not an answer in my opinion, if that was the case we'd still have things like slavery, the stoning of women etc that most "Christians" like to use against Islam, actually I haven't been able to find the word abortion in the bible yet, perhaps you can direct me to some verses?


  • #4146
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    end of the road wrote: »
    the view is held on the basis that the unborn, like the mother, are not in any way responsible for the rape and their conception, and that the unborn should not lose their life because their father was vermin. that the woman must get all support possible. i don't think that recognising both lives in this situation is harsh or extreme. both are victims of the father after all.

    I've never come across such a black and white harshness. Good luck to you eotr, I see your mind is so closed on the issue. I've never come across anyone so flippant towards pregnancy after rape. I hear there's some bishop who has written to his parishioners on the same vein as your thinking, so obviously the view is out there. Very surprising


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  • #4147
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Trying to compare a miscarriage to abortion is odd in the extreme.
    One is a natural event, the other is the willful destruction of a life.

    Should the miscarried foetus be treated differently. That's another debate for another thread. We're discussing the willful destruction of a human foetus and whether a Christian can destroy it.
    Scripture is clear that God knows us from the womb and that we are wonderfully created by Him.
    God speaks of calling people to His service from the womb.
    Abortion is nothing but the willful destruction of God's creation and a twarting of God's purposes for that creation.
    You can disagree with it all you like but that's a biblical perspective and as this is the Christianity forum that's the one that stands.....here at least.

    Again, I am not looking for an explanation on the difference between miscarriage and abortion . I am saying that the first trimester unborn feotus is not treated the same as a living person. How many different ways can I type that for it to sink in :pac:

    Whether someone calls us from the womb or from life is irrelevant. It is the difference in treatment after that 'calling ' that illustrated a 12 week unborn feotus is not treated the same way by society, law or medicine in the same way as a living being. There is no funeral, no investigation into death.


  • #4148
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Scripture is clear that God knows us from the womb and that we are wonderfully created by Him.
    God speaks of calling people to His service from the womb.

    Actually, the quote reads: I knew you before I formed you in the womb (my emphasis), so tell me how that relates specifically to a fetus in the womb?

    That piece of scripture is either a poetic use of language or we will have to allow that the author of Jeremiah had questionable knowledge of human biology.


  • #4149
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    end of the road wrote: »
    the view is held on the basis that the unborn, like the mother, are not in any way responsible for the rape and their conception, and that the unborn should not lose their life because their father was vermin. that the woman must get all support possible. i don't think that recognising both lives in this situation is harsh or extreme. both are victims of the father after all.

    I know you wont reply to me EOTR as per your MO when it comes to tough questions that dont have a soundbite/stock reply copied from other posters but if your father were to violently rape your sister and she fell pregnant would you force her to keep the potential baby if she didn't want to?

    Now you have been asked this in the other threads which you ignored several times (as well as several other tough questions) which is why you are no longer posting in those threads so how about you be a good Christian and please do us all a favour and answer the above question for us...

    And in case it gets confusing please only focus on the question and nothing else, no whataboutery or focusing on anything other than the question asked above in BOLD


  • #4150
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,740 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    frag420 wrote: »
    I know you wont reply to me EOTR as per your MO when it comes to tough questions that dont have a soundbite/stock reply copied from other posters but if your father were to violently rape your sister and she fell pregnant would you force her to keep the potential baby if she didn't want to?

    Now you have been asked this in the other threads which you ignored several times (as well as several other tough questions) which is why you are no longer posting in those threads so how about you be a good Christian and please do us all a favour and answer the above question for us...

    And in case it gets confusing please only focus on the question and nothing else, no whataboutery or focusing on anything other than the question asked above in BOLD


    i don't "force" anyone to do anything. the rest of your post is inaccurate.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #4151
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That, or it's a
    Achasanai wrote: »
    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Scripture is clear that God knows us from the womb and that we are wonderfully created by Him.
    God speaks of calling people to His service from the womb.

    Actually, the quote reads: I knew you before I formed you in the womb (my emphasis), so tell me how that relates specifically to a fetus in the womb?

    That piece of scripture is either a poetic use of language or we will have to allow that the author of Jeremiah had questionable knowledge of human biology.
    That, or it's also a ban on contraception. If so, well, plenty of catholics ignore that, so I don't see why abortion should be so different.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • #4152
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't "force" anyone to do anything. the rest of your post is inaccurate.

    As per usual you didn't answer the question I asked you which is why you were thrown out of the other threads so what I said in the remainder of my post was accurate.

    Tell us EOTR, what are you afraid of? Why cant you answer the question that is being asked of you? Are you a man or what? Maybe you are weak and your only way of believing you are a man is to try and control women you dont know, perhaps you can prove me wrong and answer the question!?

    And speaking of force, you have no issue forcing women you dont know to keep a pregnancy by voting to keep the 8th amendment!!!

    Ok lets make it very simple for you and remove the forced part...if your father were to rape your sister and she fell pregnant and she desperately wanted to terminate the pregnancy as she did not want to carry both her sibling and potential child what would you do to prevent this termination because you believe the potential child should not be punished for the sins of the father??

    If you are not willing to answer this then we will all know that you are not in fact interested in keeping the eight amendment and are in fact a hypocrite!

    So do us all a favour, man up and answer the question for once in your life!!


  • #4153
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't "force" anyone to do anything. the rest of your post is inaccurate.

    Voting to retain the 8th is essentially forcing (in this hypothetical scenario in which tbh I would remove the "violently" part, it's graphic enough as it is to be fair, no need for descriptions) your *hypothetical* sister into travelling abroad to seek an abortion to end the pregnancy your *hypothetical* father forced upon her in the first place.


  • #4154
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,740 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    frag420 wrote: »
    As per usual you didn't answer the question I asked you which is why you were thrown out of the other threads so what I said in the remainder of my post was accurate.

    it's not accurate.
    frag420 wrote: »
    And speaking of force, you have no issue forcing women you dont know to keep a pregnancy by voting to keep the 8th amendment!!!

    to me it's no different then "forcing" someone not to break any other law, or commit an act that harms others, within the state.
    frag420 wrote: »
    Ok lets make it very simple for you and remove the forced part...if your father were to rape your sister and she fell pregnant and she desperately wanted to terminate the pregnancy as she did not want to carry both her sibling and potential child what would you do to prevent this termination because you believe the potential child should not be punished for the sins of the father??

    there isn't anything i can do. i can only advise of the facts around the issue.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #4155
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    That's all well and good EOTR, but please remove the last two entries of your signature, I've put this to you already but you've ignored it.

    It's nonsensical and downright hypocritical. It applies to both sides of the argument, you can't say "I don't want women to have abortions so I'm voting no" and then go on to then say nobody has the right to do what they want with another's body, come on now that's just being silly and inviting even harsher criticism on yourself.


  • #4156
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's not accurate.

    Eh it is accurate. Why dont you explain to the good people of the Christianity forum why you are not allowed post in the other threads discussing abortion and the 8th amendment!?

    end of the road wrote: »
    to me it's no different then "forcing" someone not to break any other law, or commit an act that harms others, within the state.

    You say its no different than forcing someone not to break any other law, or commit an act that harms others, within the state. However in your reply earlier you denied forcing anyone to do anything, which is it EOTR??

    end of the road wrote: »
    there isn't anything i can do. i can only advise of the facts around the issue.

    You could lock them in a room until they are ready to give birth, strap them to a gurney and force feed them until they are ready to give birth...these have happened!!

    Besides if you believe the fetus has equal rights to the mother you must surely do something to stop the death of the fetus no?

    If you saw a woman being attacked on the street would you be man enough to step in and stop her being injured/killed/raped or would you give them advice on being in public, staying away from bad areas, a pamphlet on self defence classes?


  • #4157
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Achasanai wrote: »
    Actually, the quote reads: I knew you before I formed you in the womb (my emphasis), so tell me how that relates specifically to a fetus in the womb?

    That piece of scripture is either a poetic use of language or we will have to allow that the author of Jeremiah had questionable knowledge of human biology.

    You can consider it poetic language. I consider it to be the Word of God and on that basis I make my valuations on human life. As it's the Word of God and He is the One who created us I'd assume He knows exactly how we were formed.
    The psalmist says "we are fearfully and wonderfully made" Tell me he was wrong!

    If you want to discuss miscarriage and why it's treated differently, open a thread.


  • #4158
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I'm sorry but your post reads that this is a Christian thread and no discussion or argument will be allowed because it says so in the bible.

    While I no longer prescribe to the catholic church, I consider myself to have many Christian beliefs and shutting down discussion is not one of them as I wouldn't be closed minded enough to do so. I argue my point and I call people up on theirs and am always open to correction. So I'm Christian and will be voting for abortion as I believe it's the correct thing to do in terms of compassion for women under difficult circumstances.
    Just because it says so in the bible is not an answer in my opinion, if that was the case we'd still have things like slavery, the stoning of women etc that most "Christians" like to use against Islam, actually I haven't been able to find the word abortion in the bible yet, perhaps you can direct me to some verses?

    Our definition of what a Christian is obviously differs. Having "Christian beliefs" doesn't make you one.


  • #4159
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,032 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Our definition of what a Christian is obviously differs. Having "Christian beliefs" doesn't make you one.

    That is your (unchristian) opinion.


  • #4160
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Our definition of what a Christian is obviously differs. Having "Christian beliefs" doesn't make you one.

    Nor should it, Christianity does not have the monopoly on morality!

    People can be fine upstanding members of their community without ever walking into a church or clasping their hands in prayer!

    Having said that people can call themselves whatever they want, I could call myself a Christian (shudders) to all and sundry and there is nothing that could be done about it.


  • #4161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Our definition of what a Christian is obviously differs. Having "Christian beliefs" doesn't make you one.

    Not to be rude but your posts certainly don't paint you as one either. In other words who are you to say who I am.

    Also perhaps you could answer my question and point me to where abortion is mentioned in the bible?


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  • #4162
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Not to be rude but your posts certainly don't paint you as one either. In other words who are you to say who I am.

    Also perhaps you could answer my question and point me to where abortion is mentioned in the bible?
    Quiet frankly, you're estimation of what a Christian is or isn't is of very little importance in the same way as that the opinion of a flat earther of someone who says its round.

    As forr abortion....Its not...but you already knew that.!!

    The value God places on an unborn life is however
    .I'll go with His opinion over those of someone who doesn't believe in Him.


  • #4163
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    volchitsa wrote: »
    That, or it's a

    That, or it's also a ban on contraception. If so, well, plenty of catholics ignore that, so I don't see why abortion should be so different.

    Not to mention that most of those travelling abroad from Ireland for abortions are most likely Catholic. I don't believe that the views expressed by advocates of the 'No' vote are in any way representative of Irish Catholics, any more than the Iona Institute and Vatican pressing for a 'No' vote on same sex marriage in the previous referendum. To suggest that a majority of Irish Christians in some way stand behind the views of the those pressing for a 'No' vote here seems entirely specious.

    Boards.ie need your help to survive, subscribe here



  • #4164
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Quiet frankly, you're estimation of what a Christian is or isn't is of very little importance in the same way as that the opinion of a flat earther of someone who says its round.

    As forr abortion....Its not...but you already knew that.!!

    The value God places on an unborn life is however
    .I'll go with His opinion over those of someone who doesn't believe in Him.

    Well then your saying is that god has an opinion, which is ncorrect man took teachings and made judgements and opinions based of their own beliefs such as rules around marriage due to property from which was considered a spiritual choice prior to this.

    Basically you just also said I don't believe in god which is your opinion, which is also wrong by the way.

    Your post is also stating that the Church of Ireland's position on the 8th which I linked to earlier, also means that the person who made the statement and whose followers agree with the statement are not Christians either in your opinion, despite being a significant religion of the country and has been made by a man who actually studied and understands the bible as per his Christian religion.


  • #4165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Also your flat earthier comment gave me a giggle given the church believed that the earth was centre of the universe based on the bible and threatened Galileo based on his scientific findings.


  • #4166
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    You can consider it poetic language. I consider it to be the Word of God and on that basis I make my valuations on human life. As it's the Word of God and He is the One who created us I'd assume He knows exactly how we were formed.
    The psalmist says "we are fearfully and wonderfully made" Tell me he was wrong!

    You make these assumptions on one passage from Jeremiah? But ignore that the OT - with all its rules & regulations - makes no mention of whether abortion is wrong?

    But seeing as you do, what do you make of the fact that the passage talks about knowing a person before God forms him in the womb?
    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    If you want to discuss miscarriage and why it's treated differently, open a thread.

    Huh?


  • #4167
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Well then your saying is that god has an opinion, which is ncorrect man took teachings and made judgements and opinions based of their own beliefs such as rules around marriage due to property from which was considered a spiritual choice prior to this.

    Basically you just also said I don't believe in god which is your opinion, which is also wrong by the way.

    Your post is also stating that the Church of Ireland's position on the 8th which I linked to earlier, also means that the person who made the statement and whose followers agree with the statement are not Christians either in your opinion, despite being a significant religion of the country and has been made by a man who actually studied and understands the bible as per his Christian religion.

    What makes you think that ?

    What the CofI thinks or doesn't think is of no relevance to me just as want the RCC says is of no relevance.


  • #4168
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    What makes you think that ?

    What the CofI thinks or doesn't think is of no relevance to me just as want the RCC says is of no relevance.

    Discussing similar issues with a cousin and a friend who are both priests, its their belief God doesn't have an opinion only his word, but they agree that interpretation of said word is different between religions and at time within a religion itself, even down to individual interpretation of a member of a religion.

    Hence why you have some people stating, because the bible tells me so, to justify their own personal beliefs and that others should be forced to live by their personal beliefs and no argument against this should be allowed.


  • #4169
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,740 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    frag420 wrote: »
    You say its no different than forcing someone not to break any other law, or commit an act that harms others, within the state. However in your reply earlier you denied forcing anyone to do anything, which is it EOTR??

    both. i don't force anyone to do anything, the law does.
    frag420 wrote: »
    You could lock them in a room until they are ready to give birth, strap them to a gurney and force feed them until they are ready to give birth...these have happened!!


    Besides if you believe the fetus has equal rights to the mother you must surely do something to stop the death of the fetus no?

    those happened within certain procedures. for me to do it (not that i would anyway) would be a criminal offence.
    frag420 wrote: »
    If you saw a woman being attacked on the street would you be man enough to step in and stop her being injured/killed/raped or would you give them advice on being in public, staying away from bad areas, a pamphlet on self defence classes?

    i'd call the police.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #4170
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Discussing similar issues with a cousin and a friend who are both priests, its their belief God doesn't have an opinion only his word, but they agree that interpretation of said word is different between religions and at time within a religion itself, even down to individual interpretation of a member of a religion.

    Hence why you have some people stating, because the bible tells me so, to justify their own personal beliefs and that others should be forced to live by their personal beliefs and no argument against this should be allowed.

    Did you know there are recorded instances in the Bible of God changing His mind. In other words his opinion in something.
    He has desires for us , ways in which He wants us to live. Most of the time we disagree and live as we want.
    We disregard His opinions.

    If we stood back and left the world to carry on as it's going, we'd enter a period of chaos and moral degradation ( even more than we have now)
    We can see in the Bible what happened when everyone did what was right in their own eyes.
    Someone has to intervene.
    It was Christians who brought an end to slavery and chimney boys.

    Should they have stood by just because it was deemed acceptable by the general population?


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  • #4171
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,032 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Did you know there are recorded instances in the Bible of God changing His mind. In other words his opinion in something.
    He has desires for us , ways in which He wants us to live. Most of the time we disagree and live as we want.
    We disregard His opinions.

    If we stood back and left the world to carry on as it's going, we'd enter a period of chaos and moral degradation ( even more than we have now)
    We can see in the Bible what happened when everyone did what was right in their own eyes.
    Someone has to intervene.
    It was Christians who brought an end to slavery and chimney boys.

    Should they have stood by just because it was deemed acceptable by the general population?

    It was also Christians who started these things, what's your point?


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