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Commonwealth games marathon

  • 15-04-2018 11:43am
    #1
    fennor72
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭


    I watched in horror last night as Callum Hawkins wobbled, fell and then eventually collapsed near the end of the marathon. I couldn't believe he was left spralled out on the road with no medical assistance around. A local 5k run would have a better response time.
    And as for the ghouls around him, how f**ked up are people taking pictures instead of helping


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Comments

  • #2
    ooter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,981 ✭✭✭ooter


    I was watching it live and it was absolutely horrible to witness, couldn't believe there was nobody on hand to offer assistance.


  • #3
    spurshero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭spurshero


    Bad enough no medical help on hand but saddest part of all was people wanting to take photo of man in such distress . Sickening .


  • #4
    ultrapercy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭ultrapercy


    spurshero wrote: »
    Bad enough no medical help on hand but saddest part of all was people wanting to take photo of man in such distress . Sickening .

    The people taking photos and videos is one issue. Life nowadays isnt lived if its not viewed through a lens or recorded some way it seems.
    I didnt think the delay in treating Hawkins was unacceptable however. TV adds a drama and an urgency because you see everything unfold in real time in front on a screen. Medical support cannot be provided to every runner on every inch of road its a logicistic impossibility. To organise medics from even 1k away will take an amount of time. This is an occupational hazzard in sport.
    I ferl really sorry fpr Hawkins who is an inspirational young man. Hope hes ok and back competing soon.


  • #5
    ooter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,981 ✭✭✭ooter


    In a mass participation event I would agree that Medical support cannot be provided to every runner on every inch of road but for a marathon with only 25 participants there should've been sufficient medical attention on standby if required, especially in that heat.


  • #6
    ultrapercy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭ultrapercy


    ooter wrote: »
    In a mass participation event I would agree that Medical support cannot be provided to every runner on every inch of road but for a marathon with only 25 participants there should've been sufficient medical attention on standby if required, especially in that heat.

    But the delay wasnt that great. Shelly was 2 mins behind him at the time he eventually hit the deck and he had attention as Shelly went past. Now time is presious in extreme medical situations and 2 mins may be too long but its part of the hazzard of the event. How people can stand videoing a man in distress, a man who may even be dying (not to be too dramatic) and not try to help in some way is beyond my comprehension.


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  • #7
    fennor72
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭fennor72


    ultrapercy wrote:
    But the delay wasnt that great. Shelly was 2 mins behind him at the time he eventually hit the deck and he had attention as Shelly went past. Now time is presious in extreme medical situations and 2 mins may be too long but its part of the hazzard of the event. How people can stand videoing a man in distress, a man who may even be dying (not to be too dramatic) and not try to help in some way is beyond my comprehension.


    According to reports he initially collasped, got up and continued for
    800 metres till he finally collasped and it was over 4 mins in total till he got assistance. I know medics can't be at every point in the course
    but it's been reported they were supposed to be at every 500metre intervals in the closing stages.


  • #8
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,146 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    I had a look at the highlights just now. On the bridge where he was taken away from I didn't see anyone standing there filming and taking photos of him so there's been a lot of outrage online over nothing really.


  • #9
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    I didn't realise an athlete getting medical assistance in the marathon is disqualified. Is that the case?
    Would the people at the side of the road coming to his assistance and picking him up have disqualified him too.

    Crazy the way people just stood there watching him. A few came on then with their smart phones. It makes you wonder if a guy had collapsed with a heart issue how long he would have waited for assistance.


  • #10
    Safiri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭Safiri


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I didn't realise an athlete getting medical assistance in the marathon is disqualified. Is that the case?
    Would the people at the side of the road coming to his assistance and picking him up have disqualified him too.

    Crazy the way people just stood there watching him. A few came on then with their smart phones. It makes you wonder if a guy had collapsed with a heart issue how long he would have waited for assistance.

    What are they supposed to do though? No one really knows what's going on and Hawkins is signalling people to stay away from him. Water will do nothing and to the casual spectator, anything could be going wrong. People don't know what to do in those situations.


  • #11
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I didn't realise an athlete getting medical assistance in the marathon is disqualified. Is that the case?
    Would the people at the side of the road coming to his assistance and picking him up have disqualified him too.

    Yes and yes. And those rules are a big part of the problem.


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  • #12
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Safiri wrote: »
    What are they supposed to do though? No one really knows what's going on and Hawkins is signalling people to stay away from him. Water will do nothing and to the casual spectator, anything could be going wrong. People don't know what to do in those situations.
    IIRC, based on recent IAAF rule changes, water provided by a bystander would have resulted in a disqualification also, if it didn't come from an official aid-station.

    *Edit* small correction, based on an earlier RayCun post, it would result in a yellow card and subsequently a DQ for a second offence, 'except where provided for medical reasons from or under the direction of race officials'.


  • #13
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Hurrache wrote: »
    I had a look at the highlights just now. On the bridge where he was taken away from I didn't see anyone standing there filming and taking photos of him so there's been a lot of outrage online over nothing really.

    You need to look again. Two in yellow tops ran up to take a pic and more there also


  • #14
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Safiri wrote: »
    What are they supposed to do though? No one really knows what's going on and Hawkins is signalling people to stay away from him. Water will do nothing and to the casual spectator, anything could be going wrong. People don't know what to do in those situations.

    The medical staff are trained experts and should of step up. The rules are dangerous and surely a medical person has the skill to over rule to save a person life.


  • #15
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Hurrache wrote: »
    I had a look at the highlights just now. On the bridge where he was taken away from I didn't see anyone standing there filming and taking photos of him so there's been a lot of outrage online over nothing really.

    You must have more seed this guy....


  • #16
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,018 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    average_runner wrote: »
    The medical staff are trained experts and should of step up. The rules are dangerous and surely a medical person has the skill to over rule to save a person life.
    As trained experts, the medical staff know that they can't treat a person without his consent. If he is signalling to you to stay back, you have to stay back.

    But I don't think the issue is that medics were on hand, but failed to attend to him; it's that there was what some argue is an unacceptable delay before the medics were on hand. But as none of the reports I have read actually say how long that delay was, it's hard to know how much substance there is to this complaint.

    SFAIK there has been no protest made by Team Scotland or by Hawkins.

    If a rule change is needed, it probably should be this; a runner should not be able to avoid disqualification by rejecting medical help. One his condition is such that the medics are summoned and if the medics consider that treatment should be offered, it should make no difference whether he accepts or rejects treatment. This would remove any incentive to reject treatment in the hope of winning, or even completing, the race.


  • #17
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,146 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    average_runner wrote: »
    You need to look again. Two in yellow tops ran up to take a pic and more there also
    skyblue46 wrote: »
    You must have more seed this guy....


    Can't look at something if it's not shown, and they showed a decent clip of when he was stumbling and eventually finished on the bridge and at no time did anyone come running up to take photos. So assuming they left that bit out, that's just 3 people, hardly something to be getting too upset about.


  • #18
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The only way the elite marathon runner from the lead pack should be permitted to refuse medical assistance in that final 5km is if they can't outrun the medic offering it. If you are on the floor you don't get to say no, the medic should be in there doing what they deem necessary and they have ultimate authority of the situation.

    At the moment though the mentally incapable athlete who has spent the last 5 minutes staggering across the road and bumping into crash barriers is for some unknown reason determined to be the person best positioned to decide on the capabilities to continue?!? From the live feed he was clearly not in a fit state for a good few minutes before the first fall even and it was obvious to anyone that has seen a marathon runner before he wasn't going to make it.


  • #19
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,018 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robinph wrote: »
    The only way the elite marathon runner from the lead pack should be permitted to refuse medical assistance in that final 5km is if they can't outrun the medic offering it. If you are on the floor you don't get to say no, the medic should be in there doing what they deem necessary and they have ultimate authority of the situation.

    At the moment though the mentally incapable athlete who has spent the last 5 minutes staggering across the road and bumping into crash barriers is for some unknown reason determined to be the person best positioned to decide on the capabilities to continue?!? From the live feed he was clearly not in a fit state for a good few minutes before the first fall even and it was obvious to anyone that has seen a marathon runner before he wasn't going to make it.
    This isn't a matter of the rules of the event, Robin, or the conventions of the game. It's the law. If a mentally competent person refuses medical treatment, then treating him against his will is an assault which will attract both civil and criminal sanctions. There is nothing the athletics federations or the games organisers can do to change this.

    What they can do is to say that if your refuse medical treatment you'll be disqualified anyway, so as to remove the incentive to refuse. Alternatively, they could provide that you won't be disqualified if you accept medical treatment, although obviously that would be controversial and probably complex.


  • #20
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    He clearly wasn't mentally competent though. You only need a "referee" sat on the media truck watching for the previous couple of minutes to make that call, no need to have any medically qualified person sat there.

    It's an elite marathon runner who is unable to stand up or walk in a straight line. They are therefore not competent enough to make that call themselves.
    Exactly the same as happens in boxing, you lose the right to decide if you are fit to continue just by taking part.



    It does need a rule change to remove the right to refuse.


  • #21
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    A number of the athletes were having issues wandering way off the blue line. A minute or so before he fell Hawkins was wandering all over the road clearly in trouble. It is just lucky he didn't fall and hit his head on either the barrier and then after the road.

    He also threw up while on the ground so lots of issues there. I'd imagine the spectators watching wouldn't be aware of the disqualification rule so strange that they didn't assist unless he was refusing their help, which wasn't obvious from the pictures.

    In any case at that stage he was in no fit state to decide for himself.

    Perhaps there should be a medic on a motorbike to provide quicker assistance.


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  • #22
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    On a seperate (and largely forgotten note), an amazing performance from Kevin Seaward to come through the field and finish 4th. An amazing run from a European based runner in that heat.


  • #23
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Rossi7


    So are people looking for VAR to be introduced into Athletics then ;)


  • #24
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    robinph wrote: »
    The only way the elite marathon runner from the lead pack should be permitted to refuse medical assistance in that final 5km is if they can't outrun the medic offering it. If you are on the floor you don't get to say no, the medic should be in there doing what they deem necessary and they have ultimate authority of the situation.

    At the moment though the mentally incapable athlete who has spent the last 5 minutes staggering across the road and bumping into crash barriers is for some unknown reason determined to be the person best positioned to decide on the capabilities to continue?!? From the live feed he was clearly not in a fit state for a good few minutes before the first fall even and it was obvious to anyone that has seen a marathon runner before he wasn't going to make it.

    Spot on....

    Similar to a boxer refusing to allow a doctor determine if he is fit to continue. At times these decisions have to be taken out of the hands of the person.


  • #25
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    Surely the outside assistance rule should be limited to actually assisting a person along the course and aiding their forward movement in some way (as opposed to putting someone in the recovery position). The recent Brownlee example springs to mind (different rules I know) whereby both should have been DQ'ed.


  • #26
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Only catching up on all this as was away. Supposedly it was 28 degrees. There’s been a few major championships of late in warmer temperatures than that. Anybody know what the humidity levels were like?

    I don’t think too many marathoners will be rushing to Doha for Worlds next year.


  • #27
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    EC1000 wrote: »
    The recent Brownlee example springs to mind (different rules I know) whereby both should have been DQ'ed.

    But it would have been within the rules for one of the other runners to have stopped and assisted Hawkins, just not for someone else to assist. For the Brownlees incident, Johny could have been DQ'ed for the marshal assistance he got, but getting assistance from Alistair was fine.


  • #28
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    robinph wrote: »
    But it would have been within the rules for one of the other runners to have stopped and assisted Hawkins, just not for someone else to assist. For the Brownlees incident, Johny could have been DQ'ed for the marshal assistance he got, but getting assistance from Alistair was fine.

    depends on the kind of assistance
    For the purpose of this Rule, the following examples shall be considered assistance, and are therefore not allowed:...
    (f)Receiving physical support from another athlete (other than helping to recover to a standing position) that assists in making forward progression in a race.


  • #29
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Well that is kind of pointless assistance then, and basically only allows for competitors to help each other out of a ditch if they happen to cycle off the road. Not that help from another competitor is particularly useful in any event unless you are talking mountain marathon ultra type events where you should be obliged to help.


  • #30
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    robinph wrote: »
    Well that is kind of pointless assistance then

    It's supposed to be pointless assistance :D

    Johnny Brownlee should have been DQ'ed for being assisted over the line, and would have been in a real sport ;)


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  • #31
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    While we are on the rules about assistance I assume spectators helping Valerei de Lima after being taken off course by that clown in the Athens Olympics is overlooked because it was an exceptional circumstance? Technically speaking he did receive assistance from outsiders.


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