Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

frag420 · 06-04-2018 01:46PM

Delirium wrote: »

Just FYI, it looks like Bob has closed their account so it's unlikely they'll be replying to the questions posed to them on this thread.

No doubt he will be back shortly under another guise spouting the same nonsense all over again...tic toc tic toc

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 12:43PM

Some medical pro 8th

http://www.medicsfor8th.ie/

Graces7 · 09-04-2018 01:03PM

Achasanai wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. The fact that there is no explicit commandment against abortion should at least mean that there is can be a debate on the issue, but there are a fair few posters here who see it as completely black and white. But in actuality, it all depends on a person's own personal beliefs. Just like in real life.

The taking of human life is forbidden in every civilised society. Killing young which includes especially the preborn who are utterly helpless and in greatest need of our protection, is the worst form of killing, yes murder.

There is an explicit commandment against killing. Which has been upheld and legislated against through the ages.

Just folk seem to choose to be blind on this?

Abortion is death. Else no reason for it . Why kill when there is no life?

And yes we who know that killing is wrong tend to say that over and again

Women have the skills and resources to adapt, to cope. The unborn do not. There fore the unborn have a greater right in that dire human need .
We can have compassion for women, an d must, without killing an unborn human baby . And we must do that .
And yes another Biblical quotation! Saint Patrick prayed for "the Word of God to give me speech".

Every civilisation worthy of the name "travels at the weakest lamb" .
If you are truly a Christian then the Word of God comes before any human wisdom.
I posted the medicsfor 8th site. Maybe this will avail more.

robarmstrong · 09-04-2018 01:21PM

I have compassion for women by not allowing my personal beliefs regarding abortion stand in their way when it comes to the right to choose over their own body, it's that simple really.

smacl · 09-04-2018 01:35PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The taking of human life is forbidden in every civilised society.

And yet the vast majority of those civilised societies in Europe allow for abortion on demand in the first trimester (Source). How do you reconcile that?

....... · 09-04-2018 01:59PM

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SusieBlue · 09-04-2018 02:19PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The taking of human life is forbidden in every civilised society. Killing young which includes especially the preborn who are utterly helpless and in greatest need of our protection, is the worst form of killing, yes murder.

There is an explicit commandment against killing. Which has been upheld and legislated against through the ages.

Just folk seem to choose to be blind on this?

Abortion is death. Else no reason for it . Why kill when there is no life?

And yes we who know that killing is wrong tend to say that over and again

Women have the skills and resources to adapt, to cope. The unborn do not. There fore the unborn have a greater right in that dire human need .
We can have compassion for women, an d must, without killing an unborn human baby . And we must do that .
And yes another Biblical quotation! Saint Patrick prayed for "the Word of God to give me speech".

Every civilisation worthy of the name "travels at the weakest lamb" .
If you are truly a Christian then the Word of God comes before any human wisdom.
I posted the medicsfor 8th site. Maybe this will avail more.

How many kids do you have yourself, Grace?

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-04-2018 06:35PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The taking of human life is forbidden in every civilised society. Killing young which includes especially the preborn who are utterly helpless and in greatest need of our protection, is the worst form of killing, yes murder.

And yet some countries have the death penalty so there goes that claim.

There is an explicit commandment against killing. Which has been upheld and legislated against through the ages.

Just folk seem to choose to be blind on this?

Abortion is death. Else no reason for it . Why kill when there is no life?

And yes we who know that killing is wrong tend to say that over and again

Hmmmmm, how many did the Christians kill during the crusades? How many "witches" burned at the stake?

Women have the skills and resources to adapt, to cope. The unborn do not. There fore the unborn have a greater right in that dire human need .
We can have compassion for women, an d must, without killing an unborn human baby . And we must do that .
And yes another Biblical quotation! Saint Patrick prayed for "the Word of God to give me speech".

Every civilisation worthy of the name "travels at the weakest lamb" .
If you are truly a Christian then the Word of God comes before any human wisdom.
I posted the medicsfor 8th site. Maybe this will avail more.

So they should carry the fetus to term no matter what?

Achasanai · 09-04-2018 06:50PM

Graces7 wrote: »

The taking of human life is forbidden in every civilised society. Killing young which includes especially the preborn who are utterly helpless and in greatest need of our protection, is the worst form of killing, yes murder.

This has been addressed below. Most countries that fall within what we would consider as 'civilised' allow for far more liberal abortion laws than we have.

Graces7 wrote: »

There is an explicit commandment against killing. Which has been upheld and legislated against through the ages.

And yet not one biblical quote that explicitly refers to abortion. Societies throughout history have had varied opinions on when it was considered to be killing with regards to abortion. That the Bible - particularly the OT, with all its rules and regulations on theminutae of life - does not refer to it as killing is telling.

Graces7 wrote: »

Women have the skills and resources to adapt, to cope. The unborn do not. There fore the unborn have a greater right in that dire human need .
We can have compassion for women, an d must, without killing an unborn human baby . And we must do that .

Repealing the 8th means that women will be able to do here - with better access to medical care/family & friends - than what most will do anyway over in England. Also, it should be taken into consideration that having access to abortion here should mean earlier terminations, which is surely a good thing for all. Also - even though it's been asked before - would you be in favour of forcing a woman to carry a fetus to full term regardless of fatal fetal abnormalities? In cases of rape or incest? And if it was a child? Should a woman have to stop cancer treatment because it would result in a miscarriage of a fetus?

Graces7 wrote: »

And yes another Biblical quotation! Saint Patrick prayed for "the Word of God to give me speech".

Every civilisation worthy of the name "travels at the weakest lamb" .
If you are truly a Christian then the Word of God comes before any human wisdom.
I posted the medicsfor 8th site. Maybe this will avail more.

And yet again another quotation that makes no explicit reference to abortion.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 01:09PM

Abortion is death. That was enough to bar it. Dd not need explaining although in OT times there were penalties for causing a woman to abort. Children were so precious no one would think of killing them/ They were a truly civilised people

Also see the Didache, 1st century AD. Which specifically bars abortion. I already ;ready posted that. Did you miss it? Ah well Google will help you.

Liberal is not necessarily civilised. In fact often not as here

[QUOTE=Achasanai;106677770]This has been addressed below. Most countries that fall within what we would consider as 'civilised' allow for far more liberal abortion laws than we have.

And yet not one biblical quote that explicitly refers to abortion. Societies throughout history have had varied opinions on when it was considered to be killing with regards to abortion. That the Bible - particularly the OT, with all its rules and regulations on theminutae of life - does not refer to it as killing is telling.

Wrong! It does.
Telling what? The valueof life was deeply enshrined in Mosaic Law . and see this reference
"The status of the foetus as property in the Bible is shown by the law that if a person causes a miscarriage they must pay a fine to the husband of the woman, but if they also cause the woman to die then they are liable to be killed."

So you do not see abortion as killing? That is the crux of this.
You advocate the barbaric killing of an unborn child. Which is the lowest form of murder.. DO NOT KILL is one line you will not face up to. DO NOT KILL

That commandment was and is at the very heart of Christianity. To disobey it is the ultimate sin. Same as killing a grown up ..

robarmstrong · 10-04-2018 01:11PM

I would consider forcing a woman against her will to carry an unwanted child (that may have been conceived out of rape, incest, etc) to be far more barbaric than the act of abortion herself.

You advocate the barbaric imprisonment of a woman's right.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 01:12PM

So they should carry the fetus to term no matter what?[/QUOTE]

Same incredibly uncaring red herring. OK; tell me please how many, or rather how few abortions that might apply to?

Give stats and I will answer

Oh rob? I put you on ignore weeks ago. Self defence

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 01:16PM

smacl wrote: »

And yet the vast majority of those civilised societies in Europe allow for abortion on demand in the first trimester (Source). How do you reconcile that?

Exactly; not civilised by any means. No way . Shameful

....... · 10-04-2018 01:18PM

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robarmstrong · 10-04-2018 01:20PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Exactly; not civilised by any means. No way . Shameful

Nice underlying racist tone there Grace. Those are civilized countries. Are you insinuating that they're all barbaric murderers?

You put me on ignore because all I do is pretty much prove you wrong.

Also you asked for stats, I'm in the middle of searching for those in the UK but in Ireland there were 25 legal abortions performed.

"Of that total number, the procedures were carried out for a range of reasons:

8 procedures were due to a risk of physical illness
1 was due to a risk from suicide
16 were carried out because of emergencies arising from physical illnesses."

Are you saying that all of these women should have avoided abortion and risked dying?

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 01:21PM

How come this thread went so far off track and became another "bash the Christians" thread?

Can we get back on track please?

Delirium · 10-04-2018 01:22PM

Graces7 wrote: »

How come this thread went so far off track and became another "bash the Christians" thread?

Can we get back on track please?

MOD NOTE

Please report any problem posts rather than backseat moderate the thread.

Thanks for your attention.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 01:23PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Stats for the few FFA ... as against the do not wants who could and should have avoided getting pregnant if they did not want to have a baby. Not wanting as a reason to kill?

Abortion is death.

See the thread title .. ????

....... · 10-04-2018 01:32PM

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smacl · 10-04-2018 01:57PM

Graces7 wrote: »

See the thread title .. ????

The thread title is "Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?" Christianity is the majority religion across Europe and the majority of European countries have already long since democratically voted to allow for abortion on demand during the early stages of pregnancy. So the clear answer here is that Christians can and do allow abortion within the first trimester, as is soon likely to be the case in Ireland, but do apply varying constraints after that time.

Far from bashing Irish Christians, to my mind this paints them as compassionate and capable of dealing with an evolving society in a fair manner, rather than being bound by religious dogma as was so often the case with previous generations. It seems that the moral outrage painted by the pro-life side is heavily funded by very conservative foreign interests and far from representative of the local viewpoint.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 10-04-2018 05:04PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Nice underlying racist tone there Grace. Those are civilized countries. Are you insinuating that they're all barbaric murderers?

You put me on ignore because all I do is pretty much prove you wrong.

Also you asked for stats, I'm in the middle of searching for those in the UK but in Ireland there were 25 legal abortions performed.

"Of that total number, the procedures were carried out for a range of reasons:

8 procedures were due to a risk of physical illness
1 was due to a risk from suicide
16 were carried out because of emergencies arising from physical illnesses."

Are you saying that all of these women should have avoided abortion and risked dying?

Canada also has unrestricted access to abortion.

I'd love to see what are being defined as 'civilised' countries.

This has become impossible to debate or discuss because points are not being addressed nor answered.

The underlying fact remains that the answer to the OP is a resounding yes and it will be proven, no matter what the result of the referendum, that many hundred of thousands, if not millions of Christians will have voted Yes. Or, will somebody dictate that these people are no longer Christian.

....... · 11-04-2018 08:28AM

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EirWatchr · 12-04-2018 10:36AM

....... wrote: »

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Abortion (the induced kind being discussed here) is an intervention with a consequence that prevents a life continuing.

Argumentation surrounding that is always about something else.

If the question under argument is whether induced abortion is morally right or wrong - that will always be a matter of opinion, derived from where the individual sources their ethics.

....... · 12-04-2018 11:33AM

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EirWatchr · 12-04-2018 01:13PM

....... wrote: »

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Fortunately, the worth to humanity of a set of ethics has never been solely dependent on the perceived argumentation skills of the people holding those ethics.

....... wrote: »

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From reading your posts, I doubt that.

....... · 12-04-2018 02:45PM

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NuMarvel · 12-04-2018 03:24PM

EirWatchr wrote: »

Abortion (the induced kind being discussed here) is an intervention with a consequence that prevents a life continuing.

Argumentation surrounding that is always about something else.

If the question under argument is whether induced abortion is morally right or wrong - that will always be a matter of opinion, derived from where the individual sources their ethics.

The question here isn't about the moral status of abortion, it's the legal status. Otherwise the thread title should be changed to "Can a Christian have an abortion", instead of asking about voting in a referendum about it.

And whatever one's views about the morality of abortion, when it comes to opinions on the legal status they are expected to present something more coherent and reasoned than the equivalent of "Because I said so".

Lantus · 12-04-2018 06:52PM

Give women who want it choice. Christians can abstain from the vote.

Even if we take another step forwards in morality and choice Christians can still exercise their personal choice not to avail of abortion if available and have the child irrespective of the circumstances.

It changes nothing for them and just like gay marriage the sky won't fall in.

Let's treat women with the dignity and respect they deserve in a modern 21st century society.

uck51js9zml2yt · 12-04-2018 07:21PM

Lantus wrote: »

Let's treat women with the dignity and respect they deserve in a modern 21st century society.

Absolutely. And for that very reason we should be voting against the act of violence that is abortion which is perpetrated against women and destroys the life within them.

end of the road · 12-04-2018 07:41PM

Lantus wrote: »

Give women who want it choice.

no . i'm afraid many of us will not be giving women the choice to take the lives of their unborn children outside genuine medical necessity in our country, and we will be prowd to do so. the same as we wouldn't give them the choice to terminate the life of that unborn child once born.

Lantus wrote: »

Christians can abstain from the vote.

they can, just like anyone can, but they should not. anyone and everyone who can vote should vote. this is about the type of society you want to live in, so it's important that all who can vote do vote.

Lantus wrote: »

Even if we take another step forwards in morality and choice Christians can still exercise their personal choice not to avail of abortion if available and have the child irrespective of the circumstances.

they can, but they also have a right via their constitutional vote to say no to abortion on demand, and the killing of the unborn.

Lantus wrote: »

It changes nothing for them and just like gay marriage the sky won't fall in.

it changes everything, as lots of unborn lives will be lost in this country, which is not good for society. there is no comparison what soever to gay marriage. yes unborn lives are currently been taken outside the country, but our stance in relation to allowing it in our country, i believe is saving some lives.

Lantus wrote: »

Let's treat women with the dignity and respect they deserve in a modern 21st century society.

we already do. we also treat the unborn the same, except where it isn't practical to do so. by preventing abortion on demand, i believe ireland is a modern 21st century society and is way way ahead of other countries in that regard. we must however provide for abortions where medically necessary.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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