Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Former Former wrote: »

They all need to be fixed.

Bringing a new coach, whoever he is, is utterly pointless until there's a sea change in the attitudes up there.

We're in a situation where Anscombe, Doak and Kiss have all been deemed incompetent, now Gibbes has bailed out before he's even started. What decent coach is going to go near that sort of environment?

I don't know what Logan is supposed to be doing differently tbh. He's overseen a very successful stadium redevelopment, the commercial side seems to run well and Ulster have put the other provinces to absolute shame with their recruitment in recent years. But obviously I'm very detached from the whole thing.

What Ulster need is;
1. A coach who can get the most out of a mediocre-to-good bunch of players.
2. A playing group who will respond to such a coach.
3. A new out-half.
4. A better indigenous player production line.

They need 1 and 3 asap and 4 in the next five years. But number 2 has to be achieved primarily within the group of existing players, minus Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Piutau and possibly Jackson. That leaves a pretty callow squad that's very light on leaders.

So strong leadership from those who remain is absolutely critical. I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence of that in recent months.

This is the only bit I strongly agree with.

Former Former wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

There's plenty of on-field problems, but ultimately you'll never fix those unless you sort out the club structure itself first, it's pointless.

They all need to be fixed.

Bringing a new coach, whoever he is, is utterly pointless until there's a sea change in the attitudes up there.

We're in a situation where Anscombe, Doak and Kiss have all been deemed incompetent, now Gibbes has bailed out before he's even started. What decent coach is going to go near that sort of environment?

I don't know what Logan is supposed to be doing differently tbh. He's overseen a very successful stadium redevelopment, the commercial side seems to run well and Ulster have put the other provinces to absolute shame with their recruitment in recent years. But obviously I'm very detached from the whole thing.

What Ulster need is;
1. A coach who can get the most out of a mediocre-to-good bunch of players.
2. A playing group who will respond to such a coach.
3. A new out-half.
4. A better indigenous player production line.

They need 1 and 3 asap and 4 in the next five years. But number 2 has to be achieved primarily within the group of existing players, minus Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Piutau and possibly Jackson. That leaves a pretty callow squad that's very light on leaders.

So strong leadership from those who remain is absolutely critical. I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence of that in recent months.

I don't understand how you can defend Logan unless you have insider knowledge above what ex players have.
What has overseeing a stadium redevelopment got to do with anything? You think if the Chairman was different it might fall down? He didn't design it, all he *may* have had to do was get someone to apply for a grant.
The recruitment over the last few years has been a disgrace. Big money on backs when we need forwards.
Listen to what Ferris was saying in this:
https://youtu.be/-r8y9NpSV_0
Logan has been a disaster, he gutted Ulsters outreach programs, whilst Leisnter has massively invested in theirs.

And you're in here trying to blame Rory Best?

bilston wrote: »

I was reading something the other week that claimed Leinster spend £1.4m on club rugby per year while Ulster rugby spend £40,000. That can't possibly be right can it?

If it is true then whoever is making those calls should be sacked on the spot.

It is imperative that at least one of and preferably both Banbridge and Ballynahinch get promoted to 1A next season. We also need Malone to get promoted to 1B and for Ballymena to stay in 1B. And it would be great if Rainey can get into 2A. Basically we need as many clubs playing at as high a level as possible to help with the development of future Ulster players.

That couldnt be right and spend on club rugby as what exactly anyway?

Malone will be promoted to 1B IMO even though in their final four games theyve to play 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

On Rainey. They should finish 2nd and to be promoted will have to beat Barnhall then the winner of Navan/Wanderers and Galwegians/Blackrock/Greystones/Corinthians

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Also Demented Mole has a post up in a long while

https://dementedmole.com/2018/03/04/its-grim-up-north-ulsters-malaise/#more-6745

Delighted to see the Mole digging away again.

Yeah really good article, and I think it touches on a lot of what some of us have been saying about the structural problems. The Academy, for forwards at least, is in a disastrous place, the Ulster region club game's failure speaks for itself, and then there's all the problems with the revolving door of team management.

Ultimately, all of this comes under the purview of Logan, and the buck stops with him for the failures.

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah really good article, and I think it touches on a lot of what some of us have been saying about the structural problems. The Academy, for forwards at least, is in a disastrous place, the Ulster region club game's failure speaks for itself, and then there's all the problems with the revolving door of team management.

Ultimately, all of this comes under the purview of Logan, and the buck stops with him for the failures.

Yes it comes under Logan but what are the domestic games side of things doing? While Logan is in charge and questions need to be asked why he hasnt done anything much to overhaul this side of the game what have branch done?
Like there is some very good initiatives in Ulster rugby at club level and within schools that is far better than other provinces like nutty crust youths competitions etc. But does schools game need to change?
Like there is only an acting domestic games manager at the moment. That appointment is as key as anything else such as a new head coach.

bilston wrote: »

I was reading something the other week that claimed Leinster spend £1.4m on club rugby per year while Ulster rugby spend £40,000. That can't possibly be right can it?

If it is true then whoever is making those calls should be sacked on the spot.

It is imperative that at least one of and preferably both Banbridge and Ballynahinch get promoted to 1A next season. We also need Malone to get promoted to 1B and for Ballymena to stay in 1B. And it would be great if Rainey can get into 2A. Basically we need as many clubs playing at as high a level as possible to help with the development of future Ulster players.

Having watched all 3 clubs this season I have a few points.

1. What do ulster do for these clubs? Please don't say they give them players because it is only when it fits their agenda and in some cases can case the team to go backwards introducing so many players into the match day squad esp if they have only trained one day that week.

2. These clubs have got to where they are not thanks to ulster rugby but to the hard work and effort put in by the local players and coaches. Most have been over looked at some under age level for not going to the right school or not being the right shape or size.

3. There are coaches and players out there that can do the job for ulster. We just need to give them a try and step up. We are calling for this much experience or that they have won that. Why? Why not see what we have here and use it. You just have to look at the club v academy game at the start of the year to see we have the players and we don't need to be going to Leinster or where ever for more "talent". 

4. I understand that a DoR/Head Coach will need to be someone with experience but Humph didn't have much? Dam McCaul have little to none and now we want him back because he went on to win.

Lets take this opportunity to look in and promote.

Former Former wrote: »

....Ulster have put the other provinces to absolute shame with their recruitment in recent years....

This, and how it's covered in DMs post below, is quite an interesting one. Basically the signing of those players can be viewed as a bad thing. It raised expectation levels with no foundation beneath it to ensure that Ulster could maintain those standards. Ulsters failure to develop their Academy meant that this situation was, quite simply, inevitable. Until the development pathways are sorted Ulster aren't going anywhere.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Also Demented Mole has a post up in a long while

https://dementedmole.com/2018/03/04/its-grim-up-north-ulsters-malaise/#more-6745

Whose responsibility is that ultimately?

molloyjh wrote: »

This, and how it's covered in DMs post below, is quite an interesting one. Basically the signing of those players can be viewed as a bad thing. It raised expectation levels with no foundation beneath it to ensure that Ulster could maintain those standards. Ulsters failure to develop their Academy meant that this situation was, quite simply, inevitable. Until the development pathways are sorted Ulster aren't going anywhere.

Niall Annett's move to Worcester is exactly the result of Ulster's recruitment policies. Rob Herring brought in and Annett getting no game time as a result. So he left. He's just signed a contract extension with Worcester despite suffering an ACL injury that's keeping him out of the squad pretty much all season.

There's a sort of spiral effect goes on when a club is struggling for results. Playing academy players becomes a luxury you can't afford and they leave because of it, the cupboard is bare when they're needed due to injury and the downward spiral continues.

It takes a strong coaching team to say they're going to sacrifice a season or more in the interests of developing players.

Slightly unfair to single out Farrell and Arnold. Both were stuck behind international or future international players and game time was going to be limited.
Olding, Marshall, Cave, Payne, McCloskey were ahead in the pecking order and unfortunately 7 into 2 just doesn't go.

DM appears to have completely written Ballymena's AIL win in 2002/03 out of history.

It’s a long time since Dungannon raided south to take the AIL against Cork Con in the 2000-01 decider in Lansdowne Road.

While that was the only time an Ulster club has won the AIL, they were big time outfits throughout the 2000s.

That’s the first time I’ve read the demented moles writing and to be honest it was long winded and painful he also seems to constantly refer to himself in third person. Didn’t bother finishing the article.

I do find it quite frustrating the way he'll take a phrase and then just open up the thesaurus. Definitely something masturbatory about it.

He doesn't turn phrases, he circulates utterances.

One of the things I found myself very much agreeing with was his assessment on the likes of Ferris who has turned into the ultimate hurler on the ditch. He's happy to throw on his sulky, angry face and loudly criticise those at Ulster whilst not even trying to hide the fact that he doesn't have a clue how to go about repairing things.

He was still at Ulster 3-4 years ago and will have plenty of colleagues within the squad. If he wants to be so outspoken, I've no doubt he has the inside track on what is seen as the issue internally. Yet he appears content to just throw bland grenades at the set up and his level of analysis is limited to moments of insight such as work rate, effort, passion etc.

I would much rather see someone more disconnected from the squad who isn't trying to push a media career and can offer some proper thoughts become involved with the coverage. I understand why Ferris is in the role given he was the face of Ulster Rugby but I'd be interested to see someone like Willie Falloon or another ex-player who actually is involved in the coaching side of things come on board.

$ausage$ wrote: »

Having watched all 3 clubs this season I have a few points.

1. What do ulster do for these clubs? Please don't say they give them players because it is only when it fits their agenda and in some cases can case the team to go backwards introducing so many players into the match day squad esp if they have only trained one day that week.

2. These clubs have got to where they are not thanks to ulster rugby but to the hard work and effort put in by the local players and coaches. Most have been over looked at some under age level for not going to the right school or not being the right shape or size.

3. There are coaches and players out there that can do the job for ulster. We just need to give them a try and step up. We are calling for this much experience or that they have won that. Why? Why not see what we have here and use it. You just have to look at the club v academy game at the start of the year to see we have the players and we don't need to be going to Leinster or where ever for more "talent". 

4. I understand that a DoR/Head Coach will need to be someone with experience but Humph didn't have much? Dam McCaul have little to none and now we want him back because he went on to win.

Lets take this opportunity to look in and promote.

When you say what are Ulster doing for the clubs? What do you want them to do. They can send development officers to work on specific drills/laws etc but what else do you want them to do?
How many players are truly overlooked? Many get looked at for ulster a and similar games but are they good enough.

bilston wrote: »

His point is still relevant. Ballymena are struggling to stay in 1B and Dungannon are down in 2B I think. What's happened to them?

Ulster have built the Palace of Versailles under Logan, they just didn't bother with any foundations and now it's collapsing around Logan and there is no quick fix.

Dungannon are now mid/bottom of 2B and have been since change from 4 divisions to 5. Its been gradual decline from when they were in division 1