Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

mfceiling · 02-03-2018 03:12PM

It's funny from looking at some of the supporters posts on twitter and instagram.
"Season ticket bought for next year - can't wait!!"
"Looking strong for the future"
"Best cub in Europe SUFTUM"

It's like a large section of supporters can't see the decline or don't really care as long as they get a night out on a miserable Friday in Belfast.

There is a rot at the club and it's getting worse. No idea what can be done to fix this.

As in the words of Lloyd Grossman....

"David, it's over to you"*

*through the keyhole reference for Mr Nucifora

thomond2006 · 02-03-2018 03:26PM

"Family reasons"

That phrase has lost all credibility by now. Sure Matt Williams left for family reasons also.

MJohnston · 02-03-2018 03:28PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

"Family reasons"

That phrase has lost all credibility by now. Sure Matt Williams left for family reasons also.

I think it was Demented Mole that joked on Twitter that he'll be off to England next.

Dog Botherer · 02-03-2018 03:37PM

Has Jake White been linked to the job yet? If not ye might as well shut the place down, there's no case so hopeless that he hasn't been linked to it yet.

The Black Stags · 02-03-2018 04:17PM

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Has Jake White been linked to the job yet? If not ye might as well shut the place down, there's no case so hopeless that he hasn't been linked to it yet.

He'd only want it if it was a pathway to coaching an international team. Do you want him to coach Ireland?

Dog Botherer · 02-03-2018 04:32PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

He'd only want it if it was a pathway to coaching an international team. Do you want him to coach Ireland?

I could think of a lot worse coaches.

But still, my comment was clearly tongue in cheek.

Clegg · 02-03-2018 04:42PM

Jake White's brand of rugby makes my eyes bleed. You don't have the forwards to play the way he'd want either.

Scythica · 02-03-2018 07:11PM

Fez and Paddy Wallace publicly calling for Logan's resignation

bilston · 02-03-2018 08:24PM

MJohnston wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

The wrong move there would have me questioning my support for Ulster as well (under the current leadership), but the problem is your view and my view could be completely at odds with each other (or conpletely in agreement) and therein lies the problem facing Ulster.

I agree, although if they want to continue being a family-friendly club, there's really only one direction to go in. Ultimately, I don't think they'll actually need to make a decision.

The difficulty with that is that it may jeopardise the contracts of other players who may take a different view. This is a very very difficult balancing act. I don't envy the powers that be at all.

The Black Stags · 02-03-2018 09:04PM

Scythica wrote: »

Fez and Paddy Wallace publicly calling for Logan's resignation

Got a link to it? I checked their twitters don't see anything about that. Ferries did post this though:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/shane-logan-ulster-can-be-the-best-rugby-club-on-planet-30978460.html
It's from 2015. Interesting read indeed.

prawnsambo · 02-03-2018 09:06PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Got a link to it? I checked their twitters don't see anything about that. Ferries did post this though:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/shane-logan-ulster-can-be-the-best-rugby-club-on-planet-30978460.html
It's from 2015. Interesting read indeed.

Yeah. He was openly ridiculing that on The 42 Rugby SHow a couple of weeks ago.

MJohnston · 02-03-2018 09:15PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Got a link to it? I checked their twitters don't see anything about that. Ferries did post this though:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/shane-logan-ulster-can-be-the-best-rugby-club-on-planet-30978460.html
It's from 2015. Interesting read indeed.

Logan is all businessman, first and foremost. Even his metrics for success are couched in business language and measurement. He hasn't the head for rugby, and I don't know that the CEO has to, but what he needs to know is how to properly organise the rugby side of things, and imo, nearly all of Ulster's woes can be traced back to the fact that the rugby side isn't properly organised.

Couple this all with the fact that Ulster seems to be drowning under the weight of the old boys club and jobs for the boys....the nepotism and cronyism just appears to be a rot at the heart of the place.

Scythica · 02-03-2018 09:23PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Scythica wrote: »

Fez and Paddy Wallace publicly calling for Logan's resignation

Got a link to it? I checked their twitters don't see anything about that. Ferries did post this though:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/shane-logan-ulster-can-be-the-best-rugby-club-on-planet-30978460.html
It's from 2015. Interesting read indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43264496

Dubinusa · 02-03-2018 09:28PM

He's delusional

The Black Stags · 02-03-2018 09:48PM

Scythica wrote: »

The Black Stags wrote: »

Scythica wrote: »

Fez and Paddy Wallace publicly calling for Logan's resignation

Got a link to it? I checked their twitters don't see anything about that. Ferries did post this though:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/shane-logan-ulster-can-be-the-best-rugby-club-on-planet-30978460.html
It's from 2015. Interesting read indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43264496

Thanks, sounds like they really get stuck into him! Good stuff.

Dubinusa · 03-03-2018 03:01AM

Ulster do have quality, the depth is not up to par. I hope they hire an irish coach. I reckon the irfu will approach Lancaster about the position? They need to give the next boss 3 or 4 years. Dumping people after a year or so probably turns quality coaches away.

irishfan9 · 03-03-2018 06:46AM

Lancaster is never happening

Burkie1203 · 03-03-2018 09:05AM

Dubinusa wrote: »

Ulster do have quality, the depth is not up to par. I hope they hire an irish coach. I reckon the irfu will approach Lancaster about the position? They need to give the next boss 3 or 4 years. Dumping people after a year or so probably turns quality coaches away.

Lancaster is exactly what Ulster dont need. Ulster need the rugby lovechild of Cheika and Eddie Jones.

They also need, most importantly, to address the inability to develop forwards who are able to do the business at pro14 level consistently.

Signing Jordi, Moore was a small step in the right direction but its a short term fix to a long term issue.

Former Former · 03-03-2018 09:56AM

bilston wrote: »

Why is Best a rubbish captain? How do you know? Have you just outed yourself as a player? Or are you just guessing?

Other than that I actually agree with the rest of your post...

Well, I don't see much evidence that he's a good captain tbh.

He's a very good player, he's absolutely fearless and committed and he's obviously hugely experienced. All good qualities for your captain.

But is he a leader? Are players afraid to f**k up on his watch? Is he an on-field organiser? Is he a strong enough character to whip the squad into shape and get them moving in the same direction?

Coach after coach has been through the doors at Ulster and, depending on who you ask, player power has been a significant recurring theme. The on-pitch attitude of the players this season has been an absolute disgrace. There's no other word for it. Best is either part of the problem or he's powerless to fix it. Either way...

I don't know if he's officially Ulster captain btw? But when POC was no longer Munster captain, you can bet he didn't shrink into the background, ditto BOD at Leinster.

It's not just Best of course but he should be the leader of the playing staff and he's pretty much the only constant throughout all the coaches and CEOs. Whatever needs to be done, I don't think he's up to it.

I don't think changes at boardroom and coaching level will be even nearly enough. They need a very strong on-pitch leader to come in and administer multiple kicks up many arses. You always hear about how Cullen came back from Leicester and brought a new edge to Leinster, Ulster need to find someone like that. If there's a Johann Muller Mk II available, that would do. More than one, ideally.

irishbucsfan · 03-03-2018 10:33AM

That's not at all the role of the club captain

03-03-2018 10:37AM

Former Former wrote: »

Well, I don't see much evidence that he's a good captain tbh.

He's a very good player, he's absolutely fearless and committed and he's obviously hugely experienced. All good qualities for your captain.

But is he a leader? Are players afraid to f**k up on his watch? Is he an on-field organiser? Is he a strong enough character to whip the squad into shape and get them moving in the same direction?

Coach after coach has been through the doors at Ulster and, depending on who you ask, player power has been a significant recurring theme. The on-pitch attitude of the players this season has been an absolute disgrace. There's no other word for it. Best is either part of the problem or he's powerless to fix it. Either way...

I don't know if he's officially Ulster captain btw? But when POC was no longer Munster captain, you can bet he didn't shrink into the background, ditto BOD at Leinster.

It's not just Best of course but he should be the leader of the playing staff and he's pretty much the only constant throughout all the coaches and CEOs. Whatever needs to be done, I don't think he's up to it.

I don't think changes at boardroom and coaching level will be even nearly enough. They need a very strong on-pitch leader to come in and administer multiple kicks up many arses. You always hear about how Cullen came back from Leicester and brought a new edge to Leinster, Ulster need to find someone like that. If there's a Johann Muller Mk II available, that would do. More than one, ideally.

I see your logic but I'm not sure that's entirely fair.

Cullen came back to a group of nearlymen who had been knocking on the door of success for some time. It was a top group of players and the desire and intent was there.

Best doesn't have the same ingredients available to him in Ulster and I'm not sure if it's as simple as you are making it out with regards to his leadership ability.

I would point to his captaining of the Lions during the final mid week game as a somewhat neutral endorsement of his leadership qualities.

baas baa · 03-03-2018 11:35AM

It's impossible to determine whether someone's a good captain as a casual observer. Things that I've noticed with Best though are that he's not great at dealing with refs, protests too much.

I've also been unimpressed with some of his post match interviews where after a typically Ulster performance he's tried to lay the blame at refereeing decisions or luck rather than his own players.

irishbucsfan · 03-03-2018 11:56AM

Captains pick themselves through their their presence in the squad. If Rory Best wasn't a good captain he would not have captained Ulster, Ireland and the midweek Lions.

MJohnston · 03-03-2018 12:00PM

This whole conversation is silly - Best has easily acquitted himself as captain, the range of different coaches who pick him as such objectively proves that, but even if he was rubbish, the lack of a decent captain is far from Ulster's most pressing problem.

prawnsambo · 03-03-2018 12:16PM

Yeah, pointless blaming the captain. The issues at Ulster are wider than that and completely outside whatever little control he has. I am sure there are people around the organisation who have a very clear idea what the issues are. It just requires the will to make hard decisions.

Former Former · 03-03-2018 12:51PM

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone loves Rory Best. I love Rory Best the player.

But the players are getting a free ride here. Kiss is gone. Gibbes is gone. Prominent ex players are calling for Logan to go.

Some of the displays from the players have been outrageous. Nothing to do with coaching, at times they just haven't given a sh*t. That's not on Kiss, Gibbes or Logan.

It's easy to be a great captain or leader when things are going well and everyone is as motivated as they should be. Turning around a group who are not, that's a different ask and the senior Ulster players, of whom Best is the most senior, have failed utterly.

MJohnston · 03-03-2018 01:00PM

There's plenty of on-field problems, but ultimately you'll never fix those unless you sort out the club structure itself first, it's pointless.

irishbucsfan · 03-03-2018 01:05PM

Sorry but saying that Rory Best is not an awful captain is not "giving the players a free ride". This is just silly.

There's a squad of 40-odd players at Ulster. Rory Best is actually there less than any of them.

Making Rory Best solely responsible for the conduct of every player at Ulster is very strange indeed.

Dubinusa · 03-03-2018 01:22PM

It will be fascinating to see who gets released and who they sign next season. They do need front row depth and a second row.

Former Former · 03-03-2018 01:45PM

MJohnston wrote: »

There's plenty of on-field problems, but ultimately you'll never fix those unless you sort out the club structure itself first, it's pointless.

They all need to be fixed.

Bringing a new coach, whoever he is, is utterly pointless until there's a sea change in the attitudes up there.

We're in a situation where Anscombe, Doak and Kiss have all been deemed incompetent, now Gibbes has bailed out before he's even started. What decent coach is going to go near that sort of environment?

I don't know what Logan is supposed to be doing differently tbh. He's overseen a very successful stadium redevelopment, the commercial side seems to run well and Ulster have put the other provinces to absolute shame with their recruitment in recent years. But obviously I'm very detached from the whole thing.

What Ulster need is;
1. A coach who can get the most out of a mediocre-to-good bunch of players.
2. A playing group who will respond to such a coach.
3. A new out-half.
4. A better indigenous player production line.

They need 1 and 3 asap and 4 in the next five years. But number 2 has to be achieved primarily within the group of existing players, minus Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Piutau and possibly Jackson. That leaves a pretty callow squad that's very light on leaders.

So strong leadership from those who remain is absolutely critical. I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence of that in recent months.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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