Swords/Airport metro - A proposal

strassenwo!f · 26-01-2018 1:15pm #1

I would be interested in your thoughts on this suggestion.

And I wish, for the moment, to leave aside all the important issues about how the four quadrants of Dublin which I think they should have, where they eventually enjoy quality public transport.

On the northside of Dublin, there are two major locations which do not have the rapid connection with the city which they should have: Swords, and the Airport.

Construction of a fairly direct rail line between those two locations and the city centre, aka the current metronorth proposal, would be very welcome, but it would leave a large gap in the north-east quadrant of the city between the proposed metro and the current DART line.

Areas like Darndale, Coolock and Artane, and other places broadly along or in or around the Malahide Road

For these areas to be directly served by a rapid rail connection to the centre it would require either a spur from the DART or the proposed metro.

I'm not seeing anything which would suggest that a spur from the DART is likely, but an alternative arrangement of the proposed metro might be possible, and fruitful.

I think there might be an opportunity here for Dublin to create a Swords-City metro where the two major locations (Swords and the airport) are covered by all metro trains, but they travel by different locations into the city.

To put it broadly, the north-east quadrant (Swords and the Airport) would be effectively served by two metro lines). One line to Ballymun, DCU, etc, along the original metro north route, the other heading to Darndale, Coolock, Artane,etc, and also heading into the city, broadly along the Malahide Road,

There might be a slight difference in time between Swords and the city with either route, perhaps 1-2 minutes.For most visitors to Dublin this is nothing, and nor is it big for most residents.

But even though it wouldn't make a big difference for the tourists or visitors, it would certainly make a big difference to the locals.

For most people in DCU, Artane, Coolock or Ballymun, a service every 6 minutes would probably be fine.

It seems to me that such an arrangement would provide an appropriate level of service, let's say, every 5 minutes or so, for most suburbs on the routes, and a service every 2.5 minutes or so at the Airport or Swords.

I think Mountjoy Square might be a nice place for those two routes to meet up again before heading across the city together. One coming in via Ballynun, DCU and Drumcondra from the Airport and Swords, the other coming in broadly along the Malahide Road.

(Mountjoy Square is ripe for reburbishment. A junction of two metro lines connecting the city with the Airport and Swords could be just what it needs).

I'm working on this.

I recognise that there would be increased initial costs, but, overall, I hope there might be cost savings.

Any input would be much appreciated.

strassenwo!f · 26-01-2018 1:44pm

I, for some reason, envisage it as the 'coathanger'. Swords and the Airport at the top, Ballymun, DCU and Drumcondra on one side, Darndale, Coolock and Artane and other locations on the other, all tapering off into Mountjoy Square, before their journey across the city, probably to St. Stephen's Green.

Podge_irl · 26-01-2018 2:00pm

The Malahide Road has about 7,000 buses running up and down it. I grew up in Artane and never once thought it was poorly serviced by public transport.

Idbatterim · 26-01-2018 2:43pm

put some crayons on a map there and lets have a look...

bk · 26-01-2018 5:50pm

Without going into too much detail on your proposal. My view has always been that Metro North will just be the first line of what will eventually become a network of interconnected Metros.

MN will make up the core of the network, but will end up in the long term being feed into by multiple lines. North East, South West, etc.

Take a quick look at the Barcelona Metro map for a clear example of this.

However we really, really need to focus on just getting MN built. I believe that once we have popped our Metro cheery, the public will be very enthusiastic and even demanding for more lines. Just like they were once the first Luas line opened.

LeinsterDub · 26-01-2018 5:58pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I recognise that there would be increased initial costs, but, overall, I hope there might be cost savings.

Your effectively building 2 metros . How do you expect to see any savings?

strassenwo!f · 26-01-2018 9:18pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Your effectively building 2 metros . How do you expect to see any savings?

You certainly wouldn't make any savings initially.

But you'd hope that most (or all) of Dublin's main suburbs will eventually be served by a metro level of service. Probably 40-50 years down the line, now, in Dublin's case.

You can see in many European cities that serving many suburbs involves splitting core routes in outer areas. Munich, for example, has three U-Bahn routes through the centre of the city, but many ends out in the suburbs. The metropolitan line in London also has several ends in the outlying parts of the city but effectively only one route across the city.

The problem with most examples is that the suburban 'end' withers away a bit, and high levels of service are harder to justify. If, as is the above suggestion, there were a major destination at both ends (the city at one, the Airport/Swords at the other), then this wouldn't happen.

So what you would have would be a situation where areas like the city centre and the Airport would have an appropriate level of service (every 2-3 minutes) and more suburbs would have an appropriate level of service (every 5-6 minutes).

I think that's simple enough. Certainly no up-front savings, but probably long-term, yes.

LeinsterDub · 26-01-2018 10:24pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I think that's simple enough. Certainly no up-front savings, but probably long-term, yes.

Still am not seeing the savings?

The Muppet · 26-01-2018 10:31pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Malahide Road has about 7,000 buses running up and down it. I grew up in Artane and never once thought it was poorly serviced by public transport.

Its not all that far from Harmonstown Dart station either.

strassenwo!f · 26-01-2018 11:28pm

The Muppet wrote: »

Its not all that far from Harmonstown Dart station either.

Indeed. The idea does come close to the current DART at one point. But areas like Coolock, Artane and Darndale are not well served by the DART, or the proposed metro, and should eventually be served by some form of rapid transit.

Within Dublin, the north-east quadrant is unique in that it has a major town and another major trip generator (the airport) to readily support a metro line, and I think this factor should be used to the fullest extent possible.

There are certainly many reasons to build rapid rail to the south-west quadrant (mainly one of Ireland's largest towns, Tallaght), and the other quadrants of Dublin. That is a problem for another thread, and another day.

I would envisage a tunnel boring machine (TBM) being inserted into the ground at Mountjoy Square and drilling a route via Drumcondra, DCU and Ballymun and somewhere around the airport, then coming back into the city via Belcamp, Darndale, Coolock, etc to Mountjoy Square. T

The Swords-Airport bits would be done by cut-and-cover or overland.

Then another lap of pretty much the same route to create the 'other' tunnel, and then a single route for both lines to the southside. I'm certain that this will not be how it works out, but I hope the readers of boards.ie get the idea.

CarlosHarpic · 27-01-2018 12:11am

why do we need 'savings' - we need metros.

strassenwo!f · 27-01-2018 8:45pm

The key things here are that:

for those in Swords trying to get to the airport (and vice versa) it doesn't matter what's going on along the rest of the line, and for those in Swords trying to get into the city centre it doesn't matter which route is taken, as long as it's quick (and vice versa).

For those at the airport it doesn't matter what route they take to get to the city, as long as it's quick;

For those in the city who need to get a flight, it doesn't matter how they get to the airport as long as its quick;

For commuters, they could go to their local station in the city and get a metro from the centre of the city to Artane, Coolock or Darndale with Swords and/or the Airport as the final destination, or wait two minutes and get a metro to Drumcondra or Ballymun, also with Swords and/or the Airport as the final destination;

For the planners of this stuff, they have a solution to the problem that the Airport is the only location in north Dublin which requires such a level of service.

strassenwo!f · 27-01-2018 8:50pm

I am working on a picture of the 'coathanger' illustration, but it looks like it's going to take some time. Sorry.

Van.Bosch · 27-01-2018 9:06pm

Not a bad idea in theory but in reality it would prob add 50/60% to the cost, considering we’re waiting 20 odd years for the main line and it’s already being downgraded before being built, it’s unlikely spurs will happen.

No harm dreaming and drawing dream routes but the reality is we’ll be doing well to get NMN.

Hugh Jampton · 28-01-2018 3:07pm

bk wrote: »

Without going into too much detail on your proposal. My view has always been that Metro North will just be the first line of what will eventually become a network of interconnected Metros.

MN will make up the core of the network, but will end up in the long term being feed into by multiple lines. North East, South West, etc.

Take a quick look at the Barcelona Metro map for a clear example of this.

However we really, really need to focus on just getting MN built. I believe that once we have popped our Metro cheery, the public will be very enthusiastic and even demanding for more lines. Just like they were once the first Luas line opened.

Or it could end up like DART if experience teaches us anything about transport planning in Dublin. Hugely successful but expansion plans stymied by the civil service, pliant Ministers of Transport and ignorant commentary about 'white elephants' in the media by cheerleaders for the road payola lobbies.

LeinsterDub · 28-01-2018 6:16pm

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Or it could end up like DART if experience teaches us anything about transport planning in Dublin. Hugely successful but expansion plans stymied by the civil service, pliant Ministers of Transport and ignorant commentary about 'white elephants' in the media by cheerleaders for the road payola lobbies.

And IÉs inability to manage it

Swords/Airport metro - A proposal

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