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PV panels?

  • 27-09-2016 11:48am
    #1
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭


    Suggestions please on PV


    I have a 1500 sqft 1970's bungalow in south county Dublin. it has been upgraded to double glazing ( huge windows) modern external sealed doors, Full external insulation. 2nd layer of attic insulation added. Brand new heating system with all new pipes up the walls and plumbed through the attic, high efficiency rads plus a Mitsubish AWS heat pump with plc control, special tank etc etc. LED/low energy lighting, Quooker boiling water tap. BER now B2. I am availing of Taxback scheme, EI carbon credits and SEI grants!


    One roof elevation is 125deg SE facing @ approx 30 deg pitch and is about 80 M2. No light obstruction or roof clutter. Basic research says that is near ideal.


    Got this today from Electric Ireland via email https://www.electricireland.ie/solarPV?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SRV+-+0816+-+SolarPV+CostSavings+Reminder

    Having read some other threads this offer may not be great value compared to what the regular commercial market could offer. I think I would be prepared to spend about €5K, anyone any ideas as to what I could achieve with this?

    Thanks


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Hmm. Depends a bit on the roof and access, but a bungalow should be easier than most.

    Ballpark, the hardware for a 3kw system would set you back €3,300 or so excl. VAT. I reckon including installation, you'd have change out of your five grand. If you can do the roof work yourself, or put this onto your taxback scheme, you could probably get up to 4kw for your five grand.


  • #3
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    Would €20k make a qualitative difference to what you could get? (Putting panels on the ground south facing) or would it just be 4 times this solution?


  • #4
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    rathbaner wrote: »
    Would €20k make a qualitative difference to what you could get? (Putting panels on the ground south facing) or would it just be 4 times this solution?
    Problem is you can't connect more than about 6kw on a domestic install unless you happen to have 3 phase, and even then, going over 11kw becomes a nightmare.

    Ground mounting isn't always the cheapest - cheapest is a shed roof. I think ground mount would be a bit more expensive than slate / tile roof mounting.


  • #5
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    Thanks for the superfast reply. The complexity of thsis never fails to stump me!! And anyway my shed's pitched roof faces East-West and is overshadowed by trees. :(


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    quentingargan wrote: »
    Problem is you can't connect more than about 6kw on a domestic install

    What's to stop you hanging 7kW on the East and 7kW on the West then limiting the inverter export to 6kW?


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  • #7
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    OP here. A year on and my heat pump has consumed just under 4000 Kwh and delivered just over 10,000 Kwh in 2017 to date (thermostat set @21C). My average energy bills, I am now all electric, have fallen from €300/month to €100/month but with much improved comfort levels.
    I am still keen to add some solar PV and was looking at a 3Kw installation like these http://www.buypvdirect.co.uk/PV_Packs?page=2. I am in the commercial property sector so have my own crew to do the physical and electrical installation, however, I am not at all sure how to select the appropriate quality/brand equipment. Advice appreciated


  • #8
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    mrawkward wrote: »
    ...
    I am still keen to add some solar PV and was looking at a 3Kw installation like these http://www.buypvdirect.co.uk/PV_Packs?page=2. I am in the commercial property sector so have my own crew to do the physical and electrical installation, however, I am not at all sure how to select the appropriate quality/brand equipment. Advice appreciated

    There is better value available in Ireland. Their product is 250W modules which are now quite old-hat and usually discounted. Most quality manufacturers are on 275w or above.


  • #9
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    I have now selected an Irish based kit supplier and hope to install in Jan 18.


  • #10
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Would you keep us updated, mrawkward? There's a lot of other people on here (myself included) interested in installing PV. Thinking of having it done some time this summer maybe. Would like to know the total cost of the install and the details of the parts used, etc.


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    There's a lot of other people on here (myself included) interested in installing PV. Thinking of having it done some time this summer maybe.

    Welcome to the Light Side. :D


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  • #12
    noel100
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭noel100


    mrawkward wrote:
    Having read some other threads this offer may not be great value compared to what the regular commercial market could offer. I think I would be prepared to spend about €5K, anyone any ideas as to what I could achieve with this?

    If you want great price on solar open segen.co.uk account. I've no affiliation with them. Example 3.8kw 275watt Canadian solar panels + inverter
    1.819,77euro couple hundred euro for racking.


  • #13
    noel100
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭noel100


    JA Solar 300W Mono Percium SK Silver FramePart No: JAM6-K-60-300-PR-SV

    46.9cents a watt


  • #14
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    I friendly advice to contact a local supplier and get the "know-how" before jumping in to cents per Watts !

    That cent or cents can be so easily lost if you ignore the factors in setting up the panels, position, angles, cabling type,inverter type and smart meter and not lastly, a safe physical instalaltion after recent scary winds.
    Also,that cent per Kw is only online but please bear the cost of logistics,supplying and storing,aranging the installer to sync with your panels arrivals,with your roof mounting kit,with your electrician and with the ESB meter application.

    The suppliers dont make the fat profit off the price of the kit but rather from organising and installing the whole setup as a single process that sometime cannot be understod by the home user reading boards.ie
    Been there myself...

    Good luck !


  • #15
    Mad Benny
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Mad Benny


    Rolion\quentingargan,

    I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.


  • #16
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Mad Benny wrote: »
    Rolion\quentingargan,

    I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.
    That's a difficult question to answer - it really depends on how much of the electricity is used (and displacing power at the retail price) as opposed to being re-directed to hot water which could otherwise have been heated using cheaper energy from oil or gas.

    It also depends on the installation cost. For example, either newbuild or putting it on a galvanised roof shed as DIY project would be a lot cheaper than scaffolding and ripping slates etc.

    Things would be a lot more clear-cut if there was an appropriate payment for surplus power exported.

    But 7 years is in the realm of double-glazed sales merchants. If you have a business that can use all the power produced, you may get to 9 or 10 years payback. Most domestic retrofit installations are a lot longer and reach a bit into the area of environmental philanthropy if I am being completely honest.

    Nothing wrong with environmental philanthropy. Even if payback was 15 or 20 years, thats cheaper than bank interest rates and for anyone concerned with climate change is something good you can do that washes its face eventually


  • #17
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,576 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Plus when the Zombies come, your house will be laughing at everyone else.


  • #18
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Mad Benny wrote: »
    Rolion\quentingargan,

    I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

    As Quentin said,cannot add too much apart of what he said.

    Personal,i didnt do it for numbers.
    Wth a low TCO, RoI is not going to be your friend here.
    I generated 4Mw past year and the supplier bill said i consumed 3.8Mw.

    Issue is how to maximise the output.
    With FiT will ever never comes, keep your eye on "PV storage" as that will be the next big "whoah" point in the developing of PVs systems.

    Either way,whatever you feel is right for you and those around you !


  • #19
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    noel100 wrote: »
    If you want great price on solar open segen.co.uk account. I've no affiliation with them. Example 3.8kw 275watt Canadian solar panels + inverter
    1.819,77euro couple hundred euro for racking.

    Sorry to jump on thread, do these guys install in Ireland?


  • #20
    noel100
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭noel100


    Sorry they are a wholesaler. Couple hundred euro for delivery.
    Depends if you can carry out work your self. Or hire someone.
    Still cheaper than getting some of the firm's here to do supply & install


  • #21
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭metricspaces


    Mad Benny wrote: »
    Rolion\quentingargan,

    I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

    I was asking the same question before and my thoughts are here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105912371&postcount=2

    It really makes no economic sense right now for your average household in Ireland to stick PV panels on the roof.

    Upfront investment too expensive, no payment for feeding back to grid, and cost to store excess energy on site too expensive as it's early days.

    No data either on how these systems perform after 5, 10, 15 years either e.g. if pay back period is 10yrs and the system dies after 10yrs then you haven't gained anything. Or what's the efficiency of system over these timescales?

    If it wasn't for government building regulations I don't think you'd see any developer installing PV panels on your average house either.


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  • #22
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    metricspaces wrote: »
    It really makes no economic sense right now for your average household in Ireland to stick PV panels on the roof.

    Cheapest way to satisfy part L of building regs.
    Upfront investment too expensive, no payment for feeding back to grid, and cost to store excess energy on site too expensive as it's early days.
    My system cost €2500, currently it's generating an average of 0.7kwhr per day, about 11c.
    Even if I could store that, it wouldn't really be worth it. What I do generate gets used up by the base load in my house.
    If it wasn't for government building regulations I don't think you'd see any developer installing PV panels on your average house either.

    You're probably right. Even builder/developers I know say it's a joke.
    My engineer said he wouldn't recommend an immersion diverter as the payback was too long on it.


  • #23
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    My PVs generated reports updated.
    My half issue is that the 2.4Kw power back garden panels,during the DecJanFeb are covered by "shadow" therefore are generating only half of what the front panels does.

    My main concern and that should be for everyne that has or wants PVs is how to maximise the generated energy and not how much is it doing today or tomorrow ...or ... summer vs winter !
    I can have good days in the winter that covers and exceeds the needs and bad days in the summer that cause disatisfaction with the expectations.

    Therefore,optimisation,storage,scheduling the loads and not lastly,diverter.

    Enjoy it.


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  • #24
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    AND... to give Caesar what is Caesar's ... the Joule' solar 40 tubes reports today:full tank at almost 50 degrees ,by 3:30pm and no one using the water in the house.

    I really hope that these will brings some clarification on somebody deciding on one against the other systems, really advise to go for both if possible.
    I love to assist anyone deciding to go with a system that helps the environment and not lastly,breaking the burden on the monthly utility bills .


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  • #25
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Just to confirm rolion, do you have PV and solar thermal? Or just PV with diverter?


  • #26
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Just to confirm rolion, do you have PV and solar thermal? Or just PV with diverter?

    PV and solar thermal. You can see it from the picture of his roof with the 40 tubes (solar thermal) and the 7 panels (PV)

    I'm hoping to go PV too this spring. Might call on you for help, rolion :)


  • #27
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    I'm hoping to go PV too this spring.

    I presume for environmental reasons rather than financial ones?


  • #28
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Both. I'm using an awful lot more electricity during the day now. I don't think I can fit more than about 7 panels on the roof and it won't be hard for me to use all the electricity that produces for base load (so without competing with night rate, so not for charging the car). So the financial value of all of my production will be the full day rate (13c or thereabouts), so say 1900kWh/y at €0.13 = €250 per year

    If I can get a 7 panel system up for about €2k or a bit more, I'll do it. Is that a realistic price for a small system, including installation, anyone? I won't be doing any of the work myself. Cost of 7 panels is about €1k? What else in materials and labour?


  • #29
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    unkel wrote: »
    Both. I'm using an awful lot more electricity during the day now. I don't think I can fit more than about 7 panels on the roof and it won't be hard for me to use all the electricity that produces for base load (so without competing with night rate, so not for charging the car). So the financial value of all of my production will be the full day rate (13c or thereabouts), so say 1900kWh/y at €0.13 = €250 per year

    If I can get a 7 panel system up for about €2k or a bit more, I'll do it. Is that a realistic price for a small system, including installation, anyone? I won't be doing any of the work myself. Cost of 7 panels is about €1k? What else in materials and labour?

    I would love to get PV installed but I just can't see the cost benefit at the moment. I did get some pricing last year and confirm this year for a PV system by a company

    3kW circa 5,400 (12 panel)
    2kw circa 4700(8 panel 265w)


  • #30
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    unkel wrote: »
    PV and solar thermal. You can see it from the picture of his roof with the 40 tubes (solar thermal) and the 7 panels (PV)

    I'm hoping to go PV too this spring. Might call on you for help, rolion :)

    Interesting you have both....I was going thermal.....have roof space for it.....but when I brought out a few companies they said not to bother and just put in PV with divertor so it will just use excess power to heat the water.

    With a family of 5 in the house we use a LOT of hot water so that is why I initialled looked at thermal.

    If you have roof space would thermal be a decent starting point till the government finally give grant for PV?


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  • #31
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yep. But only if you use a lot of hot water. We're also a family of 5 (4 women :D) and we use lots of hot water. Diverting to immersion is a load of nonsense (presuming you already have a reasonably efficient gas or oil boiler and / or night rate electricity. It's almost cheaper to divert it back to the grid for free. Diverter is about €500 and takes 10 years to pay for itself, and once it has paid for itself it has to compete with gas which costs 4c/kWh (even a lot less than night rate electricity)

    PV is not financially attractive in Ireland unless you actually do use most of the production for things that can't be done at night rate electricity or done by gas / oil / solid fuels (a feed in tariff or a subsidy on the installation could of course change all this)


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