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Park and rides.

  • 18-12-2017 5:23pm
    #1
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi all,
    What are your thoughts on using park and rides on the main arterial routes into Dublin, and running high frequency express busses along dedicated qbc’s into the city Centre, to alleviate the traffic in Dublin?
    The carrot for commuters being shorter journey times and less congestion, the stick being possible tolls on the city side of the main arterial routes? (The routes in question being the m1, n2, n3, n4, n7,m11)
    These park and rides would have to be quite large, but could they be used in a multi storey set up with smart parking apps to make parking easier and quicker?
    Is this a viable alternative?
    Seems logical as one bus would remove a lot of cars.
    Share your thoughts!


Comments

  • #2
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    But if you had a dedicated slip road from and to the park and ride from the main arterial road, eg the park and ride is built on a green field site near cell bridge with a dedicated slip road onto the m4. You could then use the qbc on the m4 to its full potential and have express busses going every couple of minutes into Heuston non stop. At Heuston you would then have Dublin bus, Luas, bike station taxi rank, mainline rail etc etc.


  • #4
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I have previously questionned turning the rail lines into bus motorways when you get very close to the city. Gets rid of the union problem. Electric buses could be used...


  • #5
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    tom1ie wrote: »
    But if you had a dedicated slip road from and to the park and ride from the main arterial road, eg the park and ride is built on a green field site near cell bridge with a dedicated slip road onto the m4. You could then use the qbc on the m4 to its full potential and have express busses going every couple of minutes into Heuston non stop. At Heuston you would then have Dublin bus, Luas, bike station taxi rank, mainline rail etc etc.

    Speaking of M4 P&R, the Maynooth Railway line is less than 1500m from the M4 exit for Leixlip. I'm only looking at Google maps but there would seem to be plenty of green space for a P&R if a couple of platforms could be fitted in to the east of the R449?

    Or the alternative of a branch off the Maynooth Line to a new M4 Parkway/Celbridge North station???


  • #6
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I have previously questionned turning the rail lines into bus motorways when you get very close to the city. Gets rid of the union problem. Electric buses could be used...

    How would that "get rid of the union problem". Also we weren't even talking about unions so your post is completely off topic.


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  • #7
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    tom1ie wrote: »
    But if you had a dedicated slip road from and to the park and ride from the main arterial road, eg the park and ride is built on a green field site near cell bridge with a dedicated slip road onto the m4. You could then use the qbc on the m4 to its full potential and have express busses going every couple of minutes into Heuston non stop. At Heuston you would then have Dublin bus, Luas, bike station taxi rank, mainline rail etc etc.

    So I drive part way PLUS get 2 buses to the main city centre area?

    Hard sell for me....


  • #8
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Speaking of M4 P&R, the Maynooth Railway line is less than 1500m from the M4 exit for Leixlip. I'm only looking at Google maps but there would seem to be plenty of green space for a P&R if a couple of platforms could be fitted in to the east of the R449?

    Or the alternative of a branch off the Maynooth Line to a new M4 Parkway/Celbridge North station???
    Now imagine that coupled with a high frequency bus service using a qbc into the city centre. Toll the road east of the p+r. Exclude hgvs and commercial vehicles. People would be pushed into using the p+r. You would have shuttle busses from cell bridge and leixlip bringing people to the p+r just to get on the express busses and the trains.
    This should be repeated for metro north at swords.
    P+ rs would have to be big. Largest p and r I found online was in Canada. 30000!!!


  • #9
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    How about a trial run for P&R from the N2 at around the interchange for blanch or ballymun at ikea in to the city center. Do the trial over a couple months and where ever the buses get choked on the way in to the city try and make changes as needs be from trial and error to get the quickest route If it works great if not so be it as in the grand scale of things it can't cost that much


  • #10
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII are planning a major Park and Ride at J4 Lissenhall on the M1 as part of New Metro North. A well linked P&R here has the potential to take lots of car journeys from the M1 and combined with the traffic removal from Swords and the Airport will do wonders for the M1 and the M50 southbound (morning)/northbound (evening).


  • #11
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    So I drive part way PLUS get 2 buses to the main city centre area?

    Hard sell for me....

    How long does your commute take? If an EFFICENT p+r was built with busses qued up at the p+r which leave when they are comfortably full and these busses get you into, say hueston on the m4 route, without stopping, surely that'd cut your commute time? The second "local Dublin busses" could be routed to go in an orbital route around the city centre, that'd leave no more than a ten min walk to the GPO from where you disimbark that bus. At these Dublin bus stops, bike stations could be located if you don't want to walk.
    The Dublin bus orbital rote would intersect with all the other express busses terminus from the m1 n2 n3 etc etc.


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  • #12
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    marno21 wrote: »
    TII are planning a major Park and Ride at J4 Lissenhall on the M1 as part of New Metro North. A well linked P&R here has the potential to take lots of car journeys from the M1 and combined with the traffic removal from Swords and the Airport will do wonders for the M1 and the M50 southbound (morning)/northbound (evening).

    Surely the p+r should be at the start of the metro north line, to take the swords traffic away from the m1 and as much m1 traffic as the p+r can hold? The further up the line the p+r is built, the denser the local pop gets and the higher the existing traffic levels are. You can't get rid of traffic by creating more traffic trying to get in and out of a p+r.
    Also any idea what size, setup, this p+r will be? Will it have smart parking app accessibility or will it just be a big flat carpark like dunboyne train p+r?


  • #13
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Surely the p+r should be at the start of the metro north line, to take the swords traffic away from the m1 and as much m1 traffic as the p+r can hold? The further up the line the p+r is built, the denser the local pop gets and the higher the existing traffic levels are. You can't get rid of traffic by creating more traffic trying to get in and out of a p+r.
    Also any idea what size, setup, this p+r will be? Will it have smart parking app accessibility or will it just be a big flat carpark like dunboyne train p+r?

    The P&R will be at the start of the new Metro line near J4 Donabate, north of Swords.

    No details on the size or setup of the P&R. Given that it'll be opened in 2026/2027 I'd imagine it'll be fairly intelligently setup.


  • #14
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    marno21 wrote: »
    The P&R will be at the start of the new Metro line near J4 Donabate, north of Swords.

    No details on the size or setup of the P&R. Given that it'll be opened in 2026/2027 I'd imagine it'll be fairly intelligently setup.
    You'd hope so alright. However I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a massive flat carpark with a ten min walk to the metro stop. Pointless.


  • #15
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    tom1ie wrote: »
    You'd hope so alright. However I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being a massive flat carpark with a ten min walk to the metro stop. Pointless.
    Given that this is a TII operated road junction connecting to TII operated Metro I would have more hope. I can see this P&R being very high capacity due to the fact that the Metro itself will be high capacity and TII are mad to take as much traffic as possible off the M1 and M50.


  • #16
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    For these to work you need a big arterial route and a very high-frequency mode of transport. You also need the P&R to be very big (preferably on top of) the route and with very short trips to and from cars.

    There is not much point if you face a certain five-minute walk to a platform and than an average eight-minute wait for a tram/bus. You will just stay in your car instead.

    It could work beside Navan Road Parkway with a junction on the N3 but there would not be much point without an increase in frequency on the Maynooth line.


  • #17
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Bray Head wrote: »
    For these to work you need a big arterial route and a very high-frequency mode of transport. You also need the P&R to be very big (preferably on top of) the route and with very short trips to and from cars.

    There is not much point if you face a certain five-minute walk to a platform and than an average eight-minute wait for a tram/bus. You will just stay in your car instead.

    It could work beside Navan Road Parkway with a junction on the N3 but there would not be much point without an increase in frequency on the Maynooth line.

    Yeah agree with all the above points. There'd have to be a will to go down the brt route which they use to great effect in Asia and south america. I think the n4 would be a great road to try this on though, many of the junctions are already grade separated, there's a heavy rail line in close proximity, there's a national rail station with a light rail station near the city centre on this route as well, for onward dispersal of commuters.


  • #18
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    But the alternative to a 5 min walk is a 15 min wait to get to the next junction due to traffic congestion on the M1.

    The Green luas has 2 stops at the carpark in Sandyford Ind Estate for example


  • #19
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,819 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    just to hijack the thread, it seems that there is now a strategy for the Dublin area

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Park-and-Ride-Strategy.pdf

    From a Dail debate earlier this year it was talked about and theres to be 4x bus park and rides on the M1 (north of swords) and the M11 and N11 with planning approval to be put in this year. Nothing for rail as they are scared people might use it.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2022-05-04/2/

    The thing that pricked my attention was that theres 100million + to be spent on essentially a commuter rush hour capacity upgrade on the M4 at Maynooth, which added to the clamour for the N20 Cork-Limerick motorway (which you could just as easy classify as the cojoined Cork city commuter motorway and Limerick city commuter motorway) which made me wonder how many journeys are being made by people who would take public transport but need the car for the first mile(s) from their rural or suburban house and are put off by the cost of parking or lack of availability of parking at stations.

    I was in cork recently and used the black ash park and ride and its just such a handy service especially when theres more than one travelling (its a fiver for parking/ bus shuttle for all in the car) - and thats a slightly different concept to a rail park and ride but its success does show that park and ride can work in Ireland



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