Are we over the annual poppy thread?

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 01:31PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

I know we're going way off topic but as Unionists whatever about the results of a poll can you see an actual poll taking place in say the next 15-20 years?

what makes you think i'm a unionist? and to answer the question, i cant see any kind of poll taking place in that timeframe.

not yet · 09-11-2017 01:32PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ok let's say they threw that out there

Next is

What flag,
What currency?
What national anthem?
What health system?
What parliament?
Even down to minor things like what colour post boxes?

All that would be worked out in the review process..

munsterlegend · 09-11-2017 01:51PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what makes you think i'm a unionist? and to answer the question, i cant see any kind of poll taking place in that timeframe.

Well whoever is a unionist can answer that then. Do you ever envisage such a poll and in what timeframe?

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 01:53PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Well whoever is a unionist can answer that then. Do you ever envisage such a poll and in what timeframe?

i dont see a poll in my lifetime. they need to wait until all the people who remember the troubles are gone.

Jawgap · 09-11-2017 01:54PM

not yet wrote: »

I think there would be a 10 year transition, with GB giving 10 Billion in year one on a sliding scale to 1 Billion. I honestly believe the savvy Unionist in the 6 counties will go where the money is..

I could also see a long term package put together by the Yanks to smooth out the deal.

And how politically acceptable do you think that would be......handing over €50+ billion? Just look at how they're tearing themselves over the Brexit bill.

And the Yanks? Really see a Republican congress kicking in anything more than notional money?

They're might be some cohesion funds from the EU but not much.

Pure fantasy to think the Brits would kick in any kind of money.....keep planting the magic money trees, that's your best bet

munsterlegend · 09-11-2017 02:01PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont see a poll in my lifetime. they need to wait until all the people who remember the troubles are gone.

I see your point. So obviously on emotional grounds there would be strong resistance and hardened attitudes which is understandable.

My reason for one sooner is how fractious the uk is becoming. Of course no one knows how brexit will eventually play out but I can envisage a situation where the north react strongly when the effects come down the line. I think the English will have enough problems in their own backyard and the north offers nothing to them only a liability.

end of the road · 09-11-2017 02:11PM

Orangeglacier wrote: »

Surely it's time all the republicans move on from this grief of the poppy.

They are quick enough to say let's move on from the past when the question of their collaboration with the nazis in world war 2 is brought up

no . the butcher's flower has no place in ireland. when the rbl extremists are no longer, and the flower gets back to remembering those who died in WWI and WWII , then maybe that can be reviewed.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

10-15 years? not a hope. and how did you decide that most people want this?

they don't have to want it. a UI will be pushed for and will be delivered. not in 10 to 15 years mind but it's highly likely in our lifetimes. britain wants out of NI, and the EU will not tolerate a hard border to satisfy the deluded brexit nonsense.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i will rephrase the question. Most people believe based on what? there is no groundswell of support for even putting this to the people. we are a long way from the point of asking the question so how can most people believe it will actually be realised in such a short timeframe?

a vote where? remember that both north and south have to agree. the unionists definitely wont agree and although they dont make up the majority any more there are enough catholics in cushy government jobs that wont fancy a new employer to put the kibosh on it. I cant imagine there is sufficient support in the south either. misty-eyed barstool republicanism goes out the window as soon as people realise how much of a financial millstone a merger with the north would be.

it would be no financial millstone. it is going to happen and the south will have to suck it up.

not yet wrote: »

Book your ticket so, because it's happening my friend. Nationalist Politicians in the 6 counties are running rings around their Unionist counterparts..

indeed the undemocratic unionist party are slowly burying themselves, and not a moment to soon.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you think a united ireland referendum would only consist of voters from these counties?

Can't see too many in the republic voting for it when they realise how much thier taxes would hike.

not a problem, they can be warned that due to other conditions the taxes are going to rise whether they vote for it or not. we are a small country after all.

Jawgap wrote: »

And how politically acceptable do you think that would be......handing over €50+ billion? Just look at how they're tearing themselves over the Brexit bill.

And the Yanks? Really see a Republican congress kicking in anything more than notional money?

They're might be some cohesion funds from the EU but not much.

Pure fantasy to think the Brits would kick in any kind of money.....keep planting the magic money trees, that's your best bet

oh the brits will gladly give money. remember, deluded brexitors with their delusians of granjure for who democracy is only democracy when it suits them, are in a minority. they will not stop the government giving the money. they won't have a choice.

Jawgap · 09-11-2017 02:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

oh the brits will gladly give money. remember, deluded brexitors with their delusians of granjure for who democracy is only democracy when it suits them, are in a minority. they will not stop the government giving the money. they won't have a choice.

It's actually so deluded as to be funny.

The Brits are likely to have to hand over around €60-70 billion to get out of the EU......and they're going to have to pay that because there's a gun to their head.

And now the poor deluded Shinners think they can magic up another €50+ billion to get rid of NI??

All joking aside - just where will they get that money? Borrow it? (Given that borrowing is simply deferred taxation)......rely on economic growth to generate the income? Post-Brexit that sounds like a plan :rolleyes:

So just where might the UK get an amount equivalent to a year's NHS spending to buy themselves out of the EU and send NI on its merry way?

As I said, time to start planting some of those Shinner magic money trees

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 02:20PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . the butcher's flower has no place in ireland. when the rbl extremists are no longer, and the flower gets back to remembering those who died in WWI and WWII , then maybe that can be reviewed.

they don't have to want it. a UI will be pushed for and will be delivered. not in 10 to 15 years mind but it's highly likely in our lifetimes. britain wants out of NI, and the EU will not tolerate a hard border to satisfy the deluded brexit nonsense.

it would be no financial millstone. it is going to happen and the south will have to suck it up.

indeed the undemocratic unionist party are slowly burying themselves, and not a moment to soon.

not a problem, they can be warned that due to other conditions the taxes are going to rise whether they vote for it or not. we are a small country after all.

oh the brits will gladly give money. remember, deluded brexitors with their delusians of granjure for who democracy is only democracy when it suits them, are in a minority. they will not stop the government giving the money. they won't have a choice.

you do realise that the people of the south have a say in this, right?

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 02:21PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

I see your point. So obviously on emotional grounds there would be strong resistance and hardened attitudes which is understandable.

My reason for one sooner is how fractious the uk is becoming. Of course no one knows how brexit will eventually play out but I can envisage a situation where the north react strongly when the effects come down the line. I think the English will have enough problems in their own backyard and the north offers nothing to them only a liability.

all of that is irrelevant to the people in the south. and we have to vote for it as well.

not yet · 09-11-2017 02:27PM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's actually so deluded as to be funny.

The Brits are likely to have to hand over around €60-70 billion to get out of the EU......and they're going to have to pay that because there's a gun to their head.

And now the poor deluded Shinners think they can magic up another €50+ billion to get rid of NI??

All joking aside - just where will they get that money? Borrow it? (Given that borrowing is simply deferred taxation)......rely on economic growth to generate the income? Post-Brexit that sounds like a plan :rolleyes:

So just where might the UK get an amount equivalent to a year's NHS spending to buy themselves out of the EU and send NI on its merry way?

As I said, time to start planting some of those Shinner magic money trees

Based on the fact that the 6 counties cost great britain 10 billion a year I say they would be happy to see such a drain on their country end.

Odhinn · 09-11-2017 02:33PM

Poppy...?

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 02:37PM

End of the Road you just seem to forget that you have another group of people with another tradition which lives on this Island. To just dismiss that like it is nothing is rather weird. To call the RBL extremists is obvious nonsense and verging bait.

You then just dismiss the millions of Irish people in the South and tell them to just 'suck it up' when many of them will and do have valid concerns and questions on any such event taking place. It's not a question of just saying 'suck it up' when those very same people have a vote on the matter and that is only if the majority in NI vote for it in the first place.

So ultimately I don't see how that is a winning argument for what you want to just tell the same people you need to vote for it to just 'suck it up'. You have plenty of economic and social reasons why a lot of people will not vote for it in the Republic, never mind in Northern Ireland.

To make the claim that HM Government will hand over billions of pounds like that is so naive without any basis whatsoever. It costs over 20 billion a year to run Northern Ireland, the claim was made that HM Government would pay out 10 billion a year in a transition with no word on how the Irish economy would afford it.

What is the evidence that the Irish state could afford over multiple billions to run Northern Ireland without completely crashing the somewhat recovering Irish economy, higher taxes. You would be putting huge economic burdens on the Republic's citizens by telling them to fork out for it. Never mind the social issues that come with it.

A few years ago the support for it from people in the Republic fell rapidly when it includes paying much higher taxes.

not yet · 09-11-2017 02:39PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Poppy...?

Oh yeah, Ban it, burn it, bury it...

not yet · 09-11-2017 02:45PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Poppy...?

The main problem I have with the poppy is the pomp and ceremony surrounding it every year. Let people wear it if they wish without fuss, but also leave people alone if they don't wish to wear it..

Jawgap · 09-11-2017 02:50PM

not yet wrote: »

Based on the fact that the 6 counties cost great britain 10 billion a year I say they would be happy to see such a drain on their country end.

Indeed.....do you see us voting to take on that responsibility.......plus how would a UK politician sell the necessary tax increases? Never mind the optics of handing over billions to a foreign jurisdiction to take on a region that wanted to leave?

I'd say their response would run something along the lines of "thanks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

not yet · 09-11-2017 02:50PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

End of the Road you just seem to forget that you have another group of people with another tradition which lives on this Island. To just dismiss that like it is nothing is rather weird. To call the RBL extremists is obvious nonsense and verging bait.

You then just dismiss the millions of Irish people in the South and tell them to just 'suck it up' when many of them will and do have valid concerns and questions on any such event taking place. It's not a question of just saying 'suck it up' when those very same people have a vote on the matter and that is only if the majority in NI vote for it in the first place.

So ultimately I don't see how that is a winning argument for what you want to just tell the same people you need to vote for it to just 'suck it up'. You have plenty of economic and social reasons why a lot of people will not vote for it in the Republic, never mind in Northern Ireland.

To make the claim that HM Government will hand over billions of pounds like that is so naive without any basis whatsoever. It costs over 20 billion a year to run Northern Ireland, the claim was made that HM Government would pay out 10 billion a year in a transition with no word on how the Irish economy would afford it.

What is the evidence that the Irish state could afford over multiple billions to run Northern Ireland without completely crashing the somewhat recovering Irish economy, higher taxes. You would be putting huge economic burdens on the Republic's citizens by telling them to fork out for it. Never mind the social issues that come with it.

A few years ago the support for it from people in the Republic fell rapidly when it includes paying much higher taxes.

I would be quite sure that if a collective agreement were reached on the 6 counties becoming part of a United Ireland, Europe, USA and GB would contribute hugely to the process.

end of the road · 09-11-2017 02:57PM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's actually so deluded as to be funny.

The Brits are likely to have to hand over around €60-70 billion to get out of the EU......and they're going to have to pay that because there's a gun to their head.

And now the poor deluded Shinners think they can magic up another €50+ billion to get rid of NI??

All joking aside - just where will they get that money? Borrow it? (Given that borrowing is simply deferred taxation)......rely on economic growth to generate the income? Post-Brexit that sounds like a plan

So just where might the UK get an amount equivalent to a year's NHS spending to buy themselves out of the EU and send NI on its merry way?

As I said, time to start planting some of those Shinner magic money trees

that will all be their problem. they owe us compensation so they will have to find the money for when a UI happens.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you do realise that the people of the south have a say in this, right?

they will make the correct decisian. a UI will happen. otherwise the EU and britain will force both north and south together.

not yet · 09-11-2017 02:58PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Indeed.....do you see us voting to take on that responsibility.......plus how would a UK politician sell the necessary tax increases? Never mind the optics of handing over billions to a foreign jurisdiction to take on a region that wanted to leave?

I'd say their response would run something along the lines of "thanks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

The simple math of the issue seems to be, 6 Counties costing GB 10+ billion a year for X Years or give it back to it's rightful owner with a penalty of 40-50 billion, Rather like an over due Library book...:D

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 02:59PM

end of the road wrote: »

that will all be their problem. they owe us compensation so they will have to find the money for when a UI happens.

they will make the correct decisian. a UI will happen. otherwise the EU and britain will force both north and south together.

you're living in a shinner fantasy land. britain is no position to force it on us and the EU wouldn't.

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 03:00PM

not yet wrote: »

The simple math of the issue seems to be, 6 Counties costing GB 10+ billion a year for X Years or give it back to it's rightful owner with a penalty of 40-50 billion, Rather like an over due Library book...:D

why would the south want to take on such a liability?

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 03:01PM

not yet wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

End of the Road you just seem to forget that you have another group of people with another tradition which lives on this Island. To just dismiss that like it is nothing is rather weird. To call the RBL extremists is obvious nonsense and verging bait.

You then just dismiss the millions of Irish people in the South and tell them to just 'suck it up' when many of them will and do have valid concerns and questions on any such event taking place. It's not a question of just saying 'suck it up' when those very same people have a vote on the matter and that is only if the majority in NI vote for it in the first place.

So ultimately I don't see how that is a winning argument for what you want to just tell the same people you need to vote for it to just 'suck it up'. You have plenty of economic and social reasons why a lot of people will not vote for it in the Republic, never mind in Northern Ireland.

To make the claim that HM Government will hand over billions of pounds like that is so naive without any basis whatsoever. It costs over 20 billion a year to run Northern Ireland, the claim was made that HM Government would pay out 10 billion a year in a transition with no word on how the Irish economy would afford it.

What is the evidence that the Irish state could afford over multiple billions to run Northern Ireland without completely crashing the somewhat recovering Irish economy, higher taxes. You would be putting huge economic burdens on the Republic's citizens by telling them to fork out for it. Never mind the social issues that come with it.

A few years ago the support for it from people in the Republic fell rapidly when it includes paying much higher taxes.

I would be quite sure that if a collective agreement were reached on the 6 counties becoming part of a United Ireland, Europe, USA and GB would contribute hugely to the process.

Without a shred of evidence which suggests that. To think America will fork out billions of dollars is sheer insanity. No provisions in the agreement which stipulates the UK government or the American government forking out billions of pounds in any such transition. It is simply wishful thinking.

Orangeglacier · 09-11-2017 03:04PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . the butcher's flower has no place in ireland. when the rbl extremists are no longer, and the flower gets back to remembering those who died in WWI and WWII , then maybe that can be reviewed.

The nazi regime and anti semitism no matter what walk of life you come from has no place in ireland. There can be no excuse for alliances with nazis. That's a much bigger offence than the wearing the poppy.
Very single minded view to think otherwise.

Remembering aswell the volunteers redmond rallied to fight in WW1 for hope of keeping at a very minimum the prospect of home rule alive.
The thousands that died in vain to try make a start for a Republic. The poppy also represents them

end of the road · 09-11-2017 03:07PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

End of the Road you just seem to forget that you have another group of people with another tradition which lives on this Island. To just dismiss that like it is nothing is rather weird. To call the RBL extremists is obvious nonsense and verging bait.

i haven't dismissed them. they will have 2 choices, come and join us in a UI and contribute, or go to britain itself. that will be their decisian.

A Little Pony wrote: »

You then just dismiss the millions of Irish people in the South and tell them to just 'suck it up' when many of them will and do have valid concerns and questions on any such event taking place. It's not a question of just saying 'suck it up' when those very same people have a vote on the matter and that is only if the majority in NI vote for it in the first place.

the NI vote is the only one that matters to me. it will be they who will be joining us, we have an obligation to allow them in if they vote to join us as they are irish and part of this country.

A Little Pony wrote: »

So ultimately I don't see how that is a winning argument for what you want to just tell the same people you need to vote for it to just 'suck it up'. You have plenty of economic and social reasons why a lot of people will not vote for it in the Republic, never mind in Northern Ireland.

the economic reasons don't' stack up in the republic not to vote for it. it's just an excuse because people can't find an actual reason not to vote for it. because in truth, they are not allied to the republic.

A Little Pony wrote: »

To make the claim that HM Government will hand over billions of pounds like that is so naive without any basis whatsoever. It costs over 20 billion a year to run Northern Ireland, the claim was made that HM Government would pay out 10 billion a year in a transition with no word on how the Irish economy would afford it.

What is the evidence that the Irish state could afford over multiple billions to run Northern Ireland without completely crashing the somewhat recovering Irish economy, higher taxes. You would be putting huge economic burdens on the Republic's citizens by telling them to fork out for it. Never mind the social issues that come with it.

a UI = moe potential for greater jobs and investment, meaning huge potential for northern ireland, meaning that bill can decrease.

A Little Pony wrote: »

A few years ago the support for it from people in the Republic fell rapidly when it includes paying much higher taxes.

implement even higher taxes if they vote against it, on the basis that NI would have contributed to our economy. either way we get tax increases but it will be up to the anti-republic brigade as to how high they wish them to be. a tad higher for a UI with lots of potential, or quite high because we are a small country who have lost out on the opportunity to grow.

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 03:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

i haven't dismissed them. they will have 2 choices, come and join us in a UI and contribute, or go to britain itself. that will be their decisian.

you have read the good friday agreement, right?

end of the road wrote: »

the NI vote is the only one that matters to me. it will be they who will be joining us, we have an obligation to allow them in if they vote to join us as they are irish and part of this country.

we have no such obligation.

end of the road · 09-11-2017 03:10PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're living in a shinner fantasy land. britain is no position to force it on us and the EU wouldn't.

britain can make things very difficult for us if they wanted to to force the issue. if britain wants out of NI it will happen and there will be reunification with the south whether the few lazy want it or not.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why would the south want to take on such a liability?

it won't have a choice.

Orangeglacier wrote: »

The nazi regime and anti semitism no matter what walk of life you come from has no place in ireland. There can be no excuse for alliances with nazis. That's a much bigger offence than the wearing the poppy.
Very single minded view to think otherwise.

Remembering aswell the volunteers redmond rallied to fight in WW1 for hope of keeping at a very minimum the prospect of home rule alive.
The thousands that died in vain to try make a start for a Republic. The poppy also represents them

the RBL apparently went to meet hitler. the red poppy has no place in ireland until it's disassociated with the RBL and conflicts outside WWI and WWII.

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 03:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

britain can make things very difficult for us if they wanted to to force the issue. if britain wants out of NI it will happen and

really, how exactly do you think a britain that is outside the EU can make things difficult for us without cutting off its own nose in the process?

there will be reunification with the south whether the few lazy want it or not.

it won't have a choice.

at the point of a gun presumably as there is no other way it will happen.

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 03:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're living in a shinner fantasy land. britain is no position to force it on us and the EU wouldn't.

britain can make things very difficult for us if they wanted to to force the issue. if britain wants out of NI it will happen and there will be reunification with the south whether the few lazy want it or not.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why would the south want to take on such a liability?

it won't have a choice.

Orangeglacier wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

no . the butcher's flower has no place in ireland. when the rbl extremists are no longer, and the flower gets back to remembering those who died in WWI and WWII , then maybe that can be reviewed.

The nazi regime and anti semitism no matter what walk of life you come from has no place in ireland. There can be no excuse for alliances with nazis. That's a much bigger offence than the wearing the poppy.
Very single minded view to think otherwise.

Remembering aswell the volunteers redmond rallied to fight in WW1 for hope of keeping at a very minimum the prospect of home rule alive.
The thousands that died in vain to try make a start for a Republic. The poppy also represents them

the RBL apparently went to meet hitler. the red poppy has no place in ireland until it's disassociated with the RBL and conflicts outside WWI and WWII.

They do have a place, I saw them this tomorrow in Tesco selling Poppies.

end of the road wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

End of the Road you just seem to forget that you have another group of people with another tradition which lives on this Island. To just dismiss that like it is nothing is rather weird. To call the RBL extremists is obvious nonsense and verging bait.

i haven't dismissed them. they will have 2 choices, come and join us in a UI and contribute, or go to britain itself. that will be their decisian.

A Little Pony wrote: »

You then just dismiss the millions of Irish people in the South and tell them to just 'suck it up' when many of them will and do have valid concerns and questions on any such event taking place. It's not a question of just saying 'suck it up' when those very same people have a vote on the matter and that is only if the majority in NI vote for it in the first place.

the NI vote is the only one that matters to me. it will be they who will be joining us, we have an obligation to allow them in if they vote to join us as they are irish and part of this country.

A Little Pony wrote: »

So ultimately I don't see how that is a winning argument for what you want to just tell the same people you need to vote for it to just 'suck it up'. You have plenty of economic and social reasons why a lot of people will not vote for it in the Republic, never mind in Northern Ireland.

the economic reasons don't' stack up in the republic not to vote for it. it's just an excuse because people can't find an actual reason not to vote for it. because in truth, they are not allied to the republic.

A Little Pony wrote: »

To make the claim that HM Government will hand over billions of pounds like that is so naive without any basis whatsoever. It costs over 20 billion a year to run Northern Ireland, the claim was made that HM Government would pay out 10 billion a year in a transition with no word on how the Irish economy would afford it.

What is the evidence that the Irish state could afford over multiple billions to run Northern Ireland without completely crashing the somewhat recovering Irish economy, higher taxes. You would be putting huge economic burdens on the Republic's citizens by telling them to fork out for it. Never mind the social issues that come with it.

a UI = moe potential for greater jobs and investment, meaning huge potential for northern ireland, meaning that bill can decrease.

A Little Pony wrote: »

A few years ago the support for it from people in the Republic fell rapidly when it includes paying much higher taxes.

implement even higher taxes if they vote against it, on the basis that NI would have contributed to our economy. either way we get tax increases but it will be up to the anti-republic brigade as to how high they wish them to be. a tad higher for a UI with lots of potential, or quite high because we are a small country who have lost out on the opportunity to grow.

How can only the NI vote if the citizens of the Republic also get a vote if NI votes for it, they are as entitled to argue against as any Unionist. You seem to be making the case that the people from the Republic should be told to shut up and vote accordingly.

not yet · 09-11-2017 03:21PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why would the south want to take on such a liability?

Would you refuse a long lost son if he came to your door..regardless of the cost.;)

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 03:22PM

not yet wrote: »

Would you refuse a long lost son if he came to your door..regardless of the cost.;)

the people in northern ireland are not my long lost brothers. i'm not a misty-eyed fool who sings 4 green fields when i get pissed.

Are we over the annual poppy thread?

Comments