Are we over the annual poppy thread?

maryishere · 09-11-2017 09:24AM

not yet wrote: »

You misunderstood me...

By Crown forces I included the Loyalist death squads,R.U.C, UDA UDR etc as they were under the remit of MI5 for the most part.

RUC and UDR under the remit of M15? The conspiracy forum is over there.
The statistics showed there were a lot more RUC and UDR killed than people killed by the RUC / UDR.

Someone had to try to keep the peace between extremists on both sides ( I have always condemned the UVF and loyalist paramilitaries as much as republican paramilitaries ). Do you think the UN should have been brought in?

Even though Republicans killed 60% of those killed during the troubles, there were still more people killed in road traffic accidents most years, so maybe it was not serious enough for the UN.

munsterlegend · 09-11-2017 09:40AM

maryishere wrote: »

The turnout was close to 60% which is close to turnouts for elections and referendums here. Everyone had the same opportunity to vote. One person one vote. "The Northern Ireland border poll was a referendum held in Northern Ireland on 8 March 1973 on whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or join with the Republic of Ireland to form a united Ireland."
98.9% voted to remain part of the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973

Had the nationalist vote been big enough to win it, I'm sure there would have been a "united Ireland" long ago.

Everyone knows it was a sham poll. The main nationalist party the sdlp who could hardly be considered extremist called for a boycott and it is reckoned 1% of nationalists voted.

Why you are even mentioning it is amusing. The demographics are much different now anyway and only going in one direction given unionist party votes are now under 50%. That doesn't necessarily mean a united Ireland vote would be carried at this time but certainly the conditions for a border poll are becoming more tangible.

maryishere · 09-11-2017 09:51AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Everyone knows it was a sham poll.

The point was (and even nationalists would admit this this ) it was the nationalists themselves who made it a sham poll, because if they did not boycott it then it would show how little support there was for a united Ireland at the time. People like Gerry Fitt, one of the leaders of the SDLP, had served in the British merchant navy, he did not mind staying part of the UK once there was civil rights.
The British government gave votes to Catholics and Republicans in the poll the same as to everyone else. It was free and democratic and the Republican extremists (unsurprisingly) were against the referendum, quote:" In response to the referendum, the Provisional Irish Republican Army planted four car bombs in London that day, two of which went off, causing one death and injuring 200".

not yet · 09-11-2017 09:53AM

maryishere wrote: »

RUC and UDR under the remit of M15? The conspiracy forum is over there.
The statistics showed there were a lot more RUC and UDR killed than people killed by the RUC / UDR.

Someone had to try to keep the peace between extremists on both sides ( I have always condemned the UVF and loyalist paramilitaries as much as republican paramilitaries ). Do you think the UN should have been brought in?

Even though Republicans killed 60% of those killed during the troubles, there were still more people killed in road traffic accidents most years, so maybe it was not serious enough for the UN.

Yes, I believe the UN should have been brought in in 71'

tomwaterford · 09-11-2017 09:53AM

maryishere wrote: »

The point was (and even nationalists would admit this this ) it was the nationalists themselves who made it a sham poll, because if they did not boycott it then it would show how little support there was for a united Ireland at the time. People like Gerry Fitt, one of the leaders of the SDLP, had served in the British merchant navy, he did not mind staying part of the UK once there was civil rights.

You'd hardly call someone who was happy for ireland to remain in the UK an Irish nationlist?

I'm sure Ian Paisley was happy aswel of same conditions??

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2017 10:24AM

To think there are those who would say the poppy aint political.

The thread has been taken over by somebody determined to prove British honour and supremacy in everything they do. With Punch magazine style swipes at the 'savage Irish' thrown in.

Keep 'er lit Mary!

citytillidie · 09-11-2017 10:31AM

Quite shocking for someone who lived through it and lost someone to the BA but hey they did not kill anyone innocent according to some peple

not yet · 09-11-2017 11:07AM

I'd hazzard a guess that most people around the world look at the poppy with revulsion..

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 11:08AM

not yet wrote: »

I'd hazzard a guess that most people around the world look at the poppy with revulsion..

i'd hazard a guess that most people around the world wouldn't know what the poppy was for.

shaunr68 · 09-11-2017 11:10AM

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/11/08/nation-agrees-not-to-bother-with-poppy-debate-gets-on-with-its-day/

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-11-2017 11:54AM

State of this

https://twitter.com/jlsinc/status/928246919272509442

Orangeglacier · 09-11-2017 12:02PM

Surely it's time all the republicans move on from this grief of the poppy.

They are quick enough to say let's move on from the past when the question of their collaboration with the nazis in world war 2 is brought up

not yet · 09-11-2017 12:05PM

Orangeglacier wrote: »

Surely it's time all the republicans move on from this grief if the poppy.

They are quick enough to say let's move on from the past when the question of their collaboration with the nazis in world war 2 is brought up

Well, would you look at you..!!

09-11-2017 12:14PM

maryishere wrote: »

The point was (and even nationalists would admit this this ) it was the nationalists themselves who made it a sham poll, because if they did not boycott it then it would show how little support there was for a united Ireland at the time. People like Gerry Fitt, one of the leaders of the SDLP, had served in the British merchant navy, he did not mind staying part of the UK once there was civil rights.
The British government gave votes to Catholics and Republicans in the poll the same as to everyone else. It was free and democratic and the Republican extremists (unsurprisingly) were against the referendum, quote:" In response to the referendum, the Provisional Irish Republican Army planted four car bombs in London that day, two of which went off, causing one death and injuring 200".

You are in a minority of one here Mary. Nobody that I know of (bar yourself it seems) takes the result of this referendum seriously and subsequently would use it in any credible line of argument.

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 12:19PM

not yet wrote: »

maryishere wrote: »

There were a lot of poor protestants who could not vote either.

When there was a referendum on the future of the North in 1973 everyone was allowed to vote and encouraged to vote. The vast majority voted to remain in the UK. No surprise the Poppy has a lot of support in N.I. still.

Riddle me this Mary, on a scale of 1-10 how distraught will you be when we have a 32 county republic.

Isn't going to be a 32 county socialist republic.

not yet wrote: »

jh79 wrote: »

Would you agree in the case of the murder of a civilian that the group the murderer belongs to is irrelevant, morally speaking?

No I wouldn't, It's justified in some cases.

Edit:

Whilst I do believe the killing of civilians is wrong, it happens in a war.

Sure, I mean the UVF who planted the bombs in Dublin and Monaghan just murdered civilians, babies, but it was just a war, these things happen. Bombs just randomly appear out of nowhere and a lot of people die but it's important to use the "war" excuse.

Never read so much utter guff in my life.

not yet · 09-11-2017 12:30PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Isn't going to be a 32 county socialist republic.

Sure, I mean the UVF who planted the bombs in Dublin and Monaghan just murdered civilians, babies, but it was just a war, these things happen. Bombs just randomly appear out of nowhere and a lot of people die but it's important to use the "war" excuse.

Never read so much utter guff in my life.

Do you believe as most people do that we will have a united Ireland in the next 10-15 years..

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 12:35PM

not yet wrote: »

Do you believe as most people do that we will have a united Ireland in the next 10-15 years..

10-15 years? not a hope. and how did you decide that most people want this?

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 12:43PM

not yet wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Isn't going to be a 32 county socialist republic.

Sure, I mean the UVF who planted the bombs in Dublin and Monaghan just murdered civilians, babies, but it was just a war, these things happen. Bombs just randomly appear out of nowhere and a lot of people die but it's important to use the "war" excuse.

Never read so much utter guff in my life.

Do you believe as most people do that we will have a united Ireland in the next 10-15 years..

More chance of me flying to the moon than that happening. But I would question the actual vision which Irish Republicans have which is a Socialist state, a socialist economy, controlling the means of production, what makes them think people will vote for it?

James Connolly said it himself that there is no point swapping one capitalist flag for another. But it's something some don't want to address.

not yet · 09-11-2017 12:43PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

10-15 years? not a hope. and how did you decide that most people want this?

Have another read there ohnonotgmail, I said most people believe, not want..

Although I do believe that if there were a vote in the next 10 years it would be in favour of a United Ireland.

not yet · 09-11-2017 12:46PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

More chance of me flying to the moon than that happening. But I would question the actual vision which Irish Republicans have which is a Socialist state, a socialist economy, controlling the means of production, what makes them think people will vote for it?

James Connolly said it himself that there is no point swapping one capitalist flag for another. But it's something some don't want to address.

Book your ticket so, because it's happening my friend. Nationalist Politicians in the 6 counties are running rings around their Unionist counterparts..

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 12:48PM

not yet wrote: »

Have another read there ohnonotgmail, I said most people believe, not want..

i will rephrase the question. Most people believe based on what? there is no groundswell of support for even putting this to the people. we are a long way from the point of asking the question so how can most people believe it will actually be realised in such a short timeframe?

not yet wrote: »

Although I do believe that if there were a vote in the next 10 years it would be in favour of a United Ireland.

a vote where? remember that both north and south have to agree. the unionists definitely wont agree and although they dont make up the majority any more there are enough catholics in cushy government jobs that wont fancy a new employer to put the kibosh on it. I cant imagine there is sufficient support in the south either. misty-eyed barstool republicanism goes out the window as soon as people realise how much of a financial millstone a merger with the north would be.

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 12:50PM

not yet wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

More chance of me flying to the moon than that happening. But I would question the actual vision which Irish Republicans have which is a Socialist state, a socialist economy, controlling the means of production, what makes them think people will vote for it?

James Connolly said it himself that there is no point swapping one capitalist flag for another. But it's something some don't want to address.

Book your ticket so, because it's happening my friend. Nationalist Politicians in the 6 counties are running rings around their Unionist counterparts..

Bit off topic now I know but bizarre analysis is the best description of that.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-11-2017 12:50PM

not yet wrote: »

Book your ticket so, because it's happening my friend. Nationalist Politicians in the 6 counties are running rings around their Unionist counterparts..

Do you think a united ireland referendum would only consist of voters from these counties?

Can't see too many in the republic voting for it when they realise how much thier taxes would hike.

munsterlegend · 09-11-2017 01:04PM

not yet wrote: »

Do you believe as most people do that we will have a united Ireland in the next 10-15 years..

We may have a border poll but can't see it actually passing in that time frame. It will eventually come about when unionists realise that England are going it alone and don't fit in to their plans. I think a federal type solution with a Belfast parliament scenario is most likely and not some sort of socialist republic.

not yet · 09-11-2017 01:05PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you think a united ireland referendum would only consist of voters from these counties?

Can't see too many in the republic voting for it when they realise how much thier taxes would hike.

I think there would be a 10 year transition, with GB giving 10 Billion in year one on a sliding scale to 1 Billion. I honestly believe the savvy Unionist in the 6 counties will go where the money is..

I could also see a long term package put together by the Yanks to smooth out the deal.

A Little Pony · 09-11-2017 01:07PM

not yet wrote: »

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you think a united ireland referendum would only consist of voters from these counties?

Can't see too many in the republic voting for it when they realise how much thier taxes would hike.

I think there would be a 10 year transition, with GB giving 10 Billion in year one on a sliding scale to 1 Billion. I honestly believe the savvy Unionist in the 6 counties will go where the money is..

I could also see a long term package put together by the Yanks to smooth out the deal.

Are you trying to make us laugh?

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-11-2017 01:08PM

not yet wrote: »

I think there would be a 10 year transition, with GB giving 10 Billion in year one on a sliding scale to 1 Billion. I honestly believe the savvy Unionist in the 6 counties will go where the money is..

I could also see a long term package put together by the Yanks to smooth out the deal.

Ok let's say they threw that out there

Next is

What flag,
What currency?
What national anthem?
What health system?
What parliament?
Even down to minor things like what colour post boxes?

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2017 01:16PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Are you trying to make us laugh?

they gave me a chuckle

the brits giving £55bn and the yanks kicking in as well? that has to be a windup.

munsterlegend · 09-11-2017 01:23PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Are you trying to make us laugh?

they gave me a chuckle

the brits giving £55bn and the yanks kicking in as well? that has to be a windup.

I know we're going way off topic but as Unionists whatever about the results of a poll can you see an actual poll taking place in say the next 15-20 years?

09-11-2017 01:30PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they gave me a chuckle

the brits giving £55bn and the yanks kicking in as well? that has to be a windup.

Shinnernomics at its finest.

Create a utopia and get someone else to pay for it

Are we over the annual poppy thread?

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