Are we over the annual poppy thread?

03-11-2017 04:42PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many Irish people have relations who have served, or who are still serving in the British Armed Forces. There's a rich history of Irish involvement. Many Irish lost their lives in that uniform. They deserve to be remembered too.

I don't doubt they do, as I mentioned earlier on I have at least one descendant who was in the British army, possibly more. I don't believe the poppy is a good means of remembering them though.

My biggest problem is that the British army carried out massacres in Ireland in living memory, covered them up quite successfully, and soldiers who evaded justice can benefit from the Poppy appeal. If the British army had not behaved as it did, and if the proceeds were going to some other charity, Pieta House for example, there might be a case for it. But as it stands I really don't believe buying a Poppy is appropriate.

I think the background is something that people who wear the poppy should be sensitive to, but I get the feeling sometimes that some (not all) revel in other people's disapproval.

Unfortunately it is a very divisive symbol in Ireland. It'd be nice if there was some other way of commemorating people from this country who died in various wars, even if the wars had dubious moral basis.

03-11-2017 05:59PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yes, it commemorates those who have lost their lives in conflict, past and present; it isn't a general symbol of approval for the actions of the British military throughout history.

As I said, many of the people I'm thinking of when I wear the poppy, were themselves victims of imperialist wars, forced to join the British army more out of poverty than any sense of country.

I have never seen the RBL claim that the poppy represents approval for all soldiers and all of their actions. It represents something far simpler - those who gave their lives in (often pointless) conflicts. By defintion, this excludes the events at Ballymurphy and at Bloody Sunday.

I'm sure I wouldn't approve of every recipient of welfare from the RBL's fund, just like I don't approve of everything my tax money is used for. I mean, I'm hardly going to start berating and interrogating the little old couple who've sold me my 2-euro poppy, am I? I'm primarly wearing it as an act of remembrance, and if most people are deserving of the small comfort it gives them in their later years, well then I'm perfectly happy.

Did you read the link?

By wearing a poppy, you aren’t just remembering the fallen: you’re supporting a new generation of veterans and Service personnel that need our support.

03-11-2017 06:14PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Did you read the link?

I did yeah, and I addressed it in a previous post

Again: the aim of the poppy is primarily to commemorate and remember. That's why I wear it. A consequence of that is also that those who are elderly and injured are given some help in their old age, or when living with a disability. That's just an added bonus as far as I am concerned.

Do I think I would approve of the actions of every person who benefits? Of course not. Anytime you give money to a charity, some of the proceeds will go to people whose choices in life you object to.

I'm sure we've all given money to charities, such as homeless charities, where contributions ultimately benefit a small number of child abusers, thieves, even murderers, perhaps. *Shrug*. I'm happy that most people in the world are good people, and most recipients of charity are genuinely deserving, regardless of who they are, or what mistakes they've made.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a bit of Christian mercy from the well-meaning volunteers who raise and distribute resources for those in need.

03-11-2017 06:17PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I did yeah, and I addressed it in a previous post

Again: the aim of the poppy is primarily to commemorate and remember. That's why I wear it. A consequence of that is also that those who are elderly and injured are given some help in their old age, or when living with a disability. That's just an added bonus as far as I am concerned.

Do I think I would approve of the actions of every person who benefits? Of course not. Anytime you give money to a charity, some of the proceeds will go to people whose choices in life you object to.

I'm sure we've all given money to charities, such as homeless charities, where contributions ultimately benefit a small number of child abusers, thieves, even murderers, perhaps. *Shrug*. I'm happy that most people in the world are good people, and most recipients of charity are genuinely deserving, regardless of who they are, or what mistakes they've made.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a bit of Christian mercy from the well-meaning volunteers who raise and distribute resources for those in need.

But you're dead set against the white poppy? Surely the very same logic applies?

03-11-2017 06:37PM

riffmongous wrote: »

But your dead set against the white poppy? Surely the very same logic applies?

Lets try this again. I am not honouring the actions of all British soldiers with a poppy.

Wearing a red poppy is one small act of remembrance for those who were *killed in wars* fighting with the British army; it is an acknowledgement that they were victims of war.

The same applies to most soldiers killed in conflicts, many of whom are victims of imperialism and war-mongering leaders, including many foot-soldiers of the Wehrmacht, by the way.

But not all are victims. You cannot describe as 'victims of war', the thousands of other Nazis, including aristocratic colonels, and generals, and theoreticians who, before they were killed in action, could not have done enough (in their own eyes) to further the cause of Nazism and the extermination of the Jewish people. A white poppy commemorates those people, as well as the many innocent foot-soldiers of the German army, and all armies. But they don't all belong in the same bracket. There still exists a difference between good vs bad.

Zico · 03-11-2017 06:39PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm sure we've all given money to charities, such as homeless charities, where contributions ultimately benefit a small number of child abusers, thieves, even murderers, perhaps. *Shrug*. I'm happy that most people in the world are good people, and most recipients of charity are genuinely deserving, regardless of who they are, or what mistakes they've made.

:mad:

No need to ruin blissful ignorance for the rest of us.

I've already derogated my social responsibility don't tell me I now have to feel guilty about it.

03-11-2017 06:51PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Lets try this again. I am not honouring the actions of all British soldiers with a poppy.

Wearing a red poppy is one small act of remembrance for those who were *killed in wars* fighting with the British army; it is an acknowledgement that they were victims of war.

The same applies to most soldiers killed in conflicts, many of whom are victims of imperialism and war-mongering leaders, but not all are victims. It doesn't apply to thousands of other Nazis, including aristocratic colonels, and generals, and theoreticians who, before they were killed in action, could not have done enough (in their own eyes) to further the cause of Nazism and the extermination of the Jewish people. A white poppy commemorates those people, as well as the many innocent foot-soldiers of the German army, and all armies. But they don't all belong in the same bracket. There still exists a difference between good vs bad.

Sorry ATNM but you're not convincing me here, the RBL poppy is not just about commomerating those killed in wars, they specifically say so on their website. You might believe it only applies to the people in your heart but you support the good and the bad once you buy their poppy. You say above you are fine with that as most of the people are deserving.. but you are against the white poppy because some of the people are not deserving? It's the very same thing

03-11-2017 07:07PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Sorry ATNM but you're not convincing me here, the RBL poppy is not just about commomerating those killed in wars, they specifically say so on their website.

It's clear from all of their literature, that the primary purpose of the poppy is to remember those killed in wars. That's how the poppy began in the first place. I don't deny that there's a newer, secondary benefit, which is to provide assistance to those who need extra support which isn't covered by the State, e.g. certain disability supports.

but you are against the white poppy because some of the people are not deserving? It's the very same thing

Some people, such as Nazi commanders and strategists who were killed in conflict, do not deserve to be commemorated alongside anti-Fascists, no.

Maybe we need some kind of mauve or pink poppy to commemorate all innocent victims of war, I dunno. It doesn't exist. Maybe if it did I'd wear it.

However, I have no objection to even Nazis being given charity. Just because I wouldn't commemorate them, doesn't mean they don't deserve some mercy, even if they've never showed any when they had an opportunity to be humane.

indioblack · 03-11-2017 08:53PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Sorry ATNM but you're not convincing me here, the RBL poppy is not just about commomerating those killed in wars, they specifically say so on their website. You might believe it only applies to the people in your heart but you support the good and the bad once you buy their poppy. You say above you are fine with that as most of the people are deserving.. but you are against the white poppy because some of the people are not deserving? It's the very same thing

Can those potential recipients of RBL assistance deemed unworthy of said aid be excluded?
Can a list be compiled of living potentially "bad" recipients of funds from the poppy appeal be drawn up?
On what basis should they be included on such a list?
By what compulsion should they be excluded?

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2017 09:19PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Sorry ATNM but you're not convincing me here, the RBL poppy is not just about commomerating those killed in wars, they specifically say so on their website. You might believe it only applies to the people in your heart but you support the good and the bad once you buy their poppy. You say above you are fine with that as most of the people are deserving.. but you are against the white poppy because some of the people are not deserving? It's the very same thing

And as has been pointed oit this can be said for any charity, will you refuse to pay taxes from now on because rapists/murderers/paedophiles etc benefit from your contributions?

tomwaterford · 03-11-2017 09:20PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And as has been pointed oit this can be said for any charity, will you refuse to pay taxes from now on because rapists/murderers/paedophiles etc benefit from your contributions?

Are taxes voluntary

indioblack · 03-11-2017 09:26PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Are taxes voluntary

Then there is one advantage to the Poppy Appeal being a charity.
You can decide it's objectionable and refuse to contribute to it.

tomwaterford · 03-11-2017 09:30PM

indioblack wrote: »

Then there is one advantage to the Poppy Appeal being a charity.
You can decide it's objectionable and refuse to contribute to it.

This is what I do

Think it's thing for remberence of ww1 (vaguely worthwhile) is gone since last survivor of it died years ago

indioblack · 03-11-2017 09:49PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is what I do

Think it's thing for remberence of ww1 (vaguely worthwhile) is gone since last survivor of it died years ago

That's an interesting point - and one that the critics of the Poppy Appeal might pursue. Should we remember, what should we remember and for how long.
If you consider the two world wars, they were events of such a scale, both militarily and socially, that the remembrance of them will continue.
I think this is right and the Appeal is part of that.
That, of course, is not why there are those who object to the poppy.
The problem is that they offer no practical way of ending their objections - save by routes which are not strictly connected to the RBL.

03-11-2017 10:08PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is what I do

Think it's thing for remberence of ww1 (vaguely worthwhile) is gone since last survivor of it died years ago

That's true, although in fairness to the the points made by some of the people here (those who disagree with the poppy) I've never been fully comfortable in remembering just one side of the conflict in WW1 anyway. FrancieBrady compared it yesterday to how Ireland handled the 1916 commemoration - inclusively - and I don't remember any of the WW1 commemorations in the UK being quite as thoughtful

It may well be that the poppy will continue to become more divisive and will lose relevance in the UK. I can see it happening already, as the emphasis moves away from the two world wars, and into 'theatres' (hate that expression) of conflict like Iraq and Afghan.

WW2 has very much been the cement that united public opinion in the UK behind the poppy, but it's a damn sight easier to hate Hitler and those Nazi creeps, than some radicalised youngsters in Afghanistan or Iraq, whose lives may have been destroyed by successive British and American administrations.

tomwaterford · 03-11-2017 10:43PM

indioblack wrote: »

That's an interesting point - and one that the critics of the Poppy Appeal might pursue. Should we remember, what should we remember and for how long.
If you consider the two world wars, they were events of such a scale, both militarily and socially, that the remembrance of them will continue.
I think this is right and the Appeal is part of that.
That, of course, is not why there are those who object to the poppy.
The problem is that they offer no practical way of ending their objections - save by routes which are not strictly connected to the RBL.

I suspect it should orginal been intended to be like "Grand Army of the Republic" (GAR) for american civil war veterns

Bur too much money being made to wind it up

03-11-2017 10:50PM

indioblack wrote: »

Can those potential recipients of RBL assistance deemed unworthy of said aid be excluded?
Can a list be compiled of living potentially "bad" recipients of funds from the poppy appeal be drawn up?
On what basis should they be included on such a list?
By what compulsion should they be excluded?

Well the ideal scenario would be that we could rely on British justice and those who committed crimes would have been identified and punished and the list would be there, but unfortunately that's not the case

03-11-2017 10:59PM

indioblack wrote: »

That's an interesting point - and one that the critics of the Poppy Appeal might pursue. Should we remember, what should we remember and for how long.
If you consider the two world wars, they were events of such a scale, both militarily and socially, that the remembrance of them will continue.
I think this is right and the Appeal is part of that.
That, of course, is not why there are those who object to the poppy.
The problem is that they offer no practical way of ending their objections - save by routes which are not strictly connected to the RBL.

Ww1 is all but forgotten in the eye of the public in Germany and Austria. Only the recent centenary gave it any attention and then it was only fleeting.

indioblack · 03-11-2017 11:12PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Well the ideal scenario would be that we could rely on British justice and those who committed crimes would have been identified and punished and the list would be there, but unfortunately that's not the case

I take it you mean recent history - the British military in Ireland. If so I'd agree.
Would that be sufficient, though?

indioblack · 03-11-2017 11:18PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Ww1 is all but forgotten in the eye of the public in Germany and Austria. Only the recent centenary gave it any attention and then it was only fleeting.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It's a new angle on remembrance - I wonder if Britain had had Germany's experience in that war would there be the same desire to remember it, or remember it in the same way.

03-11-2017 11:19PM

indioblack wrote: »

I take it you mean recent history - the British military in Ireland. If so I'd agree.
Would that be sufficient, though?

Well all over the world when it comes to living people. If you commit a crime you should be unable to receive assistance from a charity that appeals to the public on the reputations of good men. The government should be able to provide the minimum assistance to those, fair?

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2017 11:23PM

I think the natural solution to this is our own day of remembrance for all who died in armed service. Be that in the foundation of the state, ww1, the Congo, ww2, and those who died in the conflict on this island in uniform or out Irish british or whatever etc.

tomwaterford · 03-11-2017 11:28PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the natural solution to this is our own day of remembrance for all who died in armed service. Be that in the foundation of the state, ww1, the Congo, ww2, and those who died in the conflict on this island in uniform or out Irish british or whatever etc.

Why would ireland remember British war dead?

Will the British commerations that lad in kerry what defected to join the old ira in the war of independence

indioblack · 03-11-2017 11:30PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Well all over the world when it comes to living people. If you commit a crime you should be unable to receive assistance from a charity that appeals to the public on the reputations of good men. The government should be able to provide the minimum assistance to those, fair?

In principle, yes. Although using the Poppy Appeal as a vehicle to bring this issue to people's attention may be a double-edged sword - as this annual thread demonstrates.

03-11-2017 11:33PM

indioblack wrote: »

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It's a new angle on remembrance - I wonder if Britain had had Germany's experience in that war would there be the same desire to remember it, or remember it in the same way.

I wonder what the French, Italians, Americans think, as they were also the 'victors'? Here in Austria there has been pretty much nothing since 2014, the anniversary of the big battle of Caporetto was a few days ago and I didn't hear anything about it publicly.

03-11-2017 11:38PM

indioblack wrote: »

In principle, yes. Although using the Poppy Appeal as a vehicle to bring this issue to people's attention may be a double-edged sword - as this annual thread demonstrates.

I doubt anyone would dare to say it publicly in Britain at the moment, or even any time without the Mail and Express leading a crusade against you

indioblack · 03-11-2017 11:38PM

riffmongous wrote: »

I wonder what the French, Italians, Americans think, as they were also the 'victors'? Here in Austria there has been pretty much nothing since 2014, the anniversary of the big battle of Caporetto was a few days ago and I didn't hear anything about it publicly.

It's probably true that being on the winning or losing side, [unwise words to use in reference to WW1], has a bearing in all this.

03-11-2017 11:39PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Well all over the world when it comes to living people. If you commit a crime you should be unable to receive assistance from a charity that appeals to the public on the reputations of good men.

That runs perilously close to the very unchristian, self-serving, Victorian notion of 'the deserving poor'. (not accusing you of those epithets, btw!)

If I give money to the Simon community or the Peter McVerry trust, I am under no naïve illusion that all of the recipients are angels who have fallen on hard times. I know, and you know, that there will be in their number the kind of individuals that the red-tops call 'scum': people with more convictions to their name than days spent holding down a job. They're still human beings, though; they still to be given some basic compassion like food and shelter.

I think most people accept this. Showing a bit of mercy to someone, regardless of their past, is the mark of a civilised society. And by the way, I'm not claiming that my flimsy two euro does this, I'm talking about the hundreds, or maybe thousands, of volunteers who raise and distribute resources for the RBL, or the Simon Community, or whatever charity we wish to discuss.

If charity were only about giving to 'the deserving poor', I feel pretty sure that this world would be a far more miserable, more chaotic, and less habitable place, completely devoid of faith in our fellow human beings.

Junkyard Tom · 03-11-2017 11:44PM

Has the RBL ever come out and condemned the use of the poppy on memorials to unionist murder gangs in the north?

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2017 12:34AM

McGregor is not sporting the poppy tonight.

Are we over the annual poppy thread?

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