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Are we over the annual poppy thread?

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Comments

  • #512
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Frankie, you are on record of saying that its being forced on hence, people should not be allowed wear one.


  • #513
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Frankie, you are on record of saying that its being forced on hence, people should not be allowed wear one.

    Yes Mark, in very specific circumstances. Did you miss that bit?


  • #514
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kingchess wrote: »
    So why the hell would any Irish person want to give money to ex British soldiers??Can not the British people do that?.
    I agree. But just because you think the government should be doing the work that charities are doing, doesn't mean you should boycott charity.
    riffmongous wrote: »
    You don't think the likes of Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy were murder?
    I think they possibly did amount to murder. Obviously, like any Irish person, I agree they were disgusting, even on the unlikely chance that they were legal killings.

    They're just irrelevant to discussion of the poppy. Those soldiers were not killed. The poppy does not commemorate the actions of all UK soldiers.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And we are supposed to work out these nuances of intention, how exactly?
    Well since you're taking the time to participate in a thread about wearing the poppy, you might begin by taking account of the expressed reasons that people here have given (excluding those we ALL know are trolls, and probably have zero real-life interest in Remembrance Day).

    I've been reading these threads for a few years, and I totally accept the validity of the views of many Irish people, that the poppy is no more than the button of a butcher's apron. That view is sincerely held, and I'm not arguing with anyone who says that.

    All I'm saying is that my views are sincere too. I'm wearing the poppy to remember both wasted lives in unnecessary wars involving the UK (including the conflicts in Ireland) as well as the war against fascism in Europe.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    'Lest we forget' when they are specifically forgetting all the others who died just as pointlessly in just the same depth of squalour?
    When my friends wear Easter Lilies, I wouldn't dream of accusing them of disrespecting or ignoring the historical victims of IRA violence, nor any victim of conflict.

    The Easter Lily is a fine symbol of Irish republicanism and I wish it were as widespread in Ireland as the poppy is in the UK. Wearing a poppy doesn't mean you are incapable of empathy with victims of British imperialism, which many UK soldiers were.


  • #515
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I agree. But just because you think the government should be doing the work that charities are doing, doesn't mean you should boycott charity.

    I think they possibly did amount to murder. Obviously, like any Irish person, I agree they were disgusting, even on the unlikely chance that they were legal killings.

    They're just irrelevant to discussion of the poppy. Those soldiers were not killed. The poppy does not commemorate the actions of all UK soldiers.

    Well since you're taking the time to participate in a thread about wearing the poppy, you might begin by taking account of the expressed reasons that people here have given (excluding those we ALL know are trolls, and probably have zero real-life interest in Remembrance Day).


    .

    I've been reading these threads for a few years, and I totally accept the validity of the views of many Irish people, that the poppy is no more than the button of a butcher's apron. That view is sincerely held, and I'm not arguing with anyone who says that.

    All I'm saying is that my views are sincere too. I'm wearing the poppy to remember both wasted lives in unnecessary wars involving the UK (including the conflicts in Ireland) as well as the war against fascism in Europe.
    I have taken on board expressed reasons for wearing the poppy and listened to some vitriol as result, from the bingo stuff to bar stool republican. Make your own mind up about tolerance on that basis.
    My view is, you cannot pretend that wearing this symbol is not taking a political side. It simply is.
    When my friends wear Easter Lilies, I wouldn't dream of accusing them of disrespecting or ignoring the historical victims of IRA violence, nor any victim of conflict.

    The Easter Lily is a fine symbol of Irish republicanism and I wish it were as widespread in Ireland as the poppy is in the UK. Wearing a poppy doesn't mean you are incapable of empathy with victims of British imperialism, which many UK soldiers were.

    I have as much time for the Lily as the poppy. They are contentious symbols that will be misunderstood wherever they are worn.


  • #516
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have taken on board expressed reasons for wearing the poppy and listened to some vitriol as result, from the bingo stuff to bar stool republican. Make your own mind up about tolerance on that basis.
    My view is, you cannot pretend that wearing this symbol is not taking a political side. It simply is.
    I could not agree more, that a lot of the supposedly "pro-remembrance" narrative on here has been vitriolic and indeed, no more than trolling.

    I have never, at any remembrance service, met any person with a fraction of the bombast and nonsense in them, as some of these posters have. Most people who wear the poppy, especially Irish people in my experience, have been educated outside of Britain and do not have the kind of apologism for imperialism (nor insistence on poppy fascism) as we see across the water. Irish people being Irish people tend to take a more pragmatic view of things.

    I'm sorry you feel that way about the Easter Lily because I happen to think it's just as valid and sincere a method of remembrance as the poppy is. Neither are worn (at least, by most people) to excuse wrongdoing, but simply to remember sacrifice and unnecessary bloodshed by people on these two islands.


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  • #517
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I'm sure the usual suspects will be along with the usual rants to re-educate you.

    I think there might be scope for a bit of an ol' drinking game......each post that mentions 'butcher' 'colonial/colony' 'traitor' 'foreign war' etc take a sip of tea.....

    ......dunk a digestive when any of the jackpot words are mentioned 'shoneen' 'cringe'

    :D

    Playing the man and not the ball is always indicative of someone knowing they’re going to lose an argument.

    ...and here’s me thinking that Britain defeated fascism so people could choose whether to wear a poppy or not.


  • #518
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I could not agree more, that a lot of the supposedly "pro-remembrance" narrative on here has been vitriolic and indeed, no more than trolling.

    I have never, at any remembrance service, met any person with a fraction of the bombast and nonsense in them, as some of these posters have. Most people who wear the poppy, especially Irish people in my experience, have been educated outside of Britain and do not have the kind of apologism for imperialism (nor insistence on poppy fascism) as we see across the water. Irish people being Irish people tend to take a more pragmatic view of things.

    I'm sorry you feel that way about the Easter Lily because I happen to think it's just as valid and sincere a method of remembrance as the poppy is. Neither are worn (at least, by most people) to excuse wrongdoing, but simply to remember sacrifice and unnecessary bloodshed by people on these two islands.

    I am always deeply suspicious of people who claim to be one thing and are often another.
    Hence no ambiguity on my part. I think outward displays of political remembrances (probably the best term for it) are wrong.

    I think this thread has shown that many cannot stand over their choice here.

    I say this as somebody who believes that respectful remembrance by all sides, together accepting their own responsibilities can be tremendously beneficial in not allowing it to happen again, not to mention healing.
    Our states remembrance of 1916 being an example.


  • #519
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I agree. But just because you think the government should be doing the work that charities are doing, doesn't mean you should boycott charity.

    I think they possibly did amount to murder. Obviously, like any Irish person, I agree they were disgusting, even on the unlikely chance that they were legal killings.

    They're just irrelevant to discussion of the poppy. Those soldiers were not killed. The poppy does not commemorate the actions of all UK soldiers.

    Well since you're taking the time to participate in a thread about wearing the poppy, you might begin by taking account of the expressed reasons that people here have given (excluding those we ALL know are trolls, and probably have zero real-life interest in Remembrance Day).

    I've been reading these threads for a few years, and I totally accept the validity of the views of many Irish people, that the poppy is no more than the button of a butcher's apron. That view is sincerely held, and I'm not arguing with anyone who says that.

    All I'm saying is that my views are sincere too. I'm wearing the poppy to remember both wasted lives in unnecessary wars involving the UK (including the conflicts in Ireland) as well as the war against fascism in Europe.

    When my friends wear Easter Lilies, I wouldn't dream of accusing them of disrespecting or ignoring the historical victims of IRA violence, nor any victim of conflict.

    The Easter Lily is a fine symbol of Irish republicanism and I wish it were as widespread in Ireland as the poppy is in the UK. Wearing a poppy doesn't mean you are incapable of empathy with victims of British imperialism, which many UK soldiers were.
    Sorry to keep harping on at you but the RBL poppy does, their website this year makes a big deal out of emphasising that it's about the armed forces past and present

    http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/poppy-appeal-2017/


  • #520
    murphthesmurf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭murphthesmurf


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I think that is a quite bewildering one tbh.
    'Lest We Forget'?

    Were is the representation of all who died in that pointless slaughter?
    The banner should read 'Selectively Remember' and have done with it.

    The only symbol that would satisfy you is one of the Union Jack covered in blood with Lucifer as an overlay and the words 'you all died for nothing'.
    You are so poisined with hate for the British. War is a terrible thing, soldiers experience horrors that you and I could never imagine. A soldier is just that, a soldier. They did not start the war, whatever war it was. Whether they believe the war to be right or wrong doesn't matter. I'm sure most of the men in WW1 when they headed out over the trenches thought the same thing as you 'why?'. The poppy is to remember them, not the politics of why, but just them. It is prodominantly a British thing, as it was the British who took up the idea. But that doesn't mean others can't appreciate the sentiment and wear it to remember the soldiers of their own country.


  • #521
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    murphthesmurf wrote: »
    The only symbol that would satisfy you is one of the Union Jack covered in blood with Lucifer as an overlay and the words 'you all died for nothing'.
    You are so poisined with hate for the British. War is a terrible thing, soldiers experience horrors that you and I could never imagine. A soldier is just that, a soldier. They did not start the war, whatever war it was. Whether they believe the war to be right or wrong doesn't matter. I'm sure most of the men in WW1 when they headed out over the trenches thought the same thing as you 'why?'. The poppy is to remember them, not the politics of why, but just them. It is prodominantly a British thing, as it was the British who took up the idea. But that doesn't mean others can't appreciate the sentiment and wear it to remember the soldiers of their own country.

    There will always be war as long as we un-selectively honour Armed Forces past and present.
    i.e what does it mean when someone like Roy Keane wears a poppy on British television (which he does). Is he honouring the Armed Forces past and present?

    I can only keep saying it - I don't hate anybody and point once again to were the vitriol is coming from in this discussion.


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  • #522
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Good article on how ludicrious it is all getting.

    https://www.shortlist.com/news/opinion/welcome-to-the-year-of-remembrance-poppy-oneupmanship/332316
    As overt displays of impotent rage go, covering every part of your body in poppies is not the worst, but the poppy is no longer a plea to remember them so much as an appeal to acknowledge me. And you don’t really want to go, “OK, let’s throw to the experts, here” but you never see any actual war veterans screaming at cricketers for not affixing a poppy to their helmets. They are rarely seen forming a poppy flashmob in Birmingham or a poppy mosaic at a football stadium. More war poetry has said that war is hell than war is something you better ****ing remember me for this, you ungrateful bastards. The veterans’ cause is largely taken up by people in tan cargo trousers and navy polo shirts, men with Andy McNab in their ears and England in their hearts, men who spend their spare time writing to the FA about respect and remembrance and swapping the red cards of referees for large, flat poppies.


  • #523
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,138 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There will always be war as long as we un-selectively honour Armed Forces past and present.
    i.e what does it mean when someone like Roy Keane wears a poppy on British television (which he does). Is he honouring the Armed Forces past and present?

    I can only keep saying it - I don't hate anybody and point once again to were the vitriol is coming from in this discussion.


    you continually called me a liar. is that vitriol enough for you?


  • #524
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you continually called me a liar. is that vitriol enough for you?

    You never explained how I did that, Still willing to listen.

    I asked you a question about what the symbol is meant to mean v what you want it to mean.

    *edit: I didn't use the word 'liar' once either.


  • #525
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,138 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You never explained how I did that, Still willing to listen.

    I asked you a question about what the symbol is meant to mean v what you want it to mean.

    *edit: I didn't use the word 'liar' once either.

    You were careful enough not use the word liar but your implication was very clear.
    According to the RBL you wear your poppy - 'To Show Support For The Armed Forces Both Past and Present.'
    That includes the ones with specific references, i.e. Poppies which remember the Irish, those who fought at Paschendale etc.
    Are you happy to be showing support for British Armed forces, past and present? Because that clearly is the intention of the RBL.
    ALP clearly is, which is at least honest.


  • #526
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    You were careful enough not use the word liar but your implication was very clear.

    And you refused to deal with the question, one way or another (you didn't say you were happy with The RBL intention or if you were unhappy with it) and announced you were finished with the discussion.

    And as you pointed out I did not call you a 'liar'.


  • #527
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    While I don't like shrieking outrage and overreaction, I think the sale of the poppy and people wearing it in Ireland is quite offensive. It's something that has somehow been given a pass by the media, because it often gets tied up with long dead people from this country who had to join the British army due to poverty.

    My problem is that the very same British soldiers who slaughtered people in Ballymurphy and Derry in the 70s could be among those to benefit from funds raised by the sale of poppies. Former UK servicemen are protesting against being investigated for murders in Ireland, those are not heroes. I'm sure a huge amount of current and former British soldiers are nice guys, decent people, but the institution has a disgraceful record here and whitewashed those massacres.

    The poppy is not an appropriate way to remember our dead countrymen who died in the British uniform unfortunately. It's a very political symbol nowadays.

    As an aside, I watched BBC NI current affairs programmes twice this week and both times the presenter wore a poppy. Obviously inappropriate to identify with unionism on air, not very dissimilar to a presenter wearing a Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael badge in the south.


  • #528
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,138 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And you refused to deal with the question, one way or another (you didn't say you were happy with The RBL intention or if you were unhappy with it) and announced you were finished with the discussion.

    And as you pointed out I did not call you a 'liar'.


    you said i was not honest. such fine (and nonexistant) distinctsions.


  • #529
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,692 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you said i was not honest. such fine (and nonexistant) distinctsions.

    I mentioned 'honesty' in relation to ALP who at least answered the question.
    You didn't answer one way or another and left the discussion.
    I did not say you were 'not honest' because I had no answer to base that on.

    If you were offended, I apologise.


  • #530
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    While I don't like shrieking outrage and overreaction, I think the sale of the poppy and people wearing it in Ireland is quite offensive. It's something that has somehow been given a pass by the media, because it often gets tied up with long dead people from this country who had to join the British army due to poverty.

    I got two poppies lunchtime/yesterday from a very old poppy seller in Dun Laoghaire, one for me one for the missus.....

    May I also remind you of my very last 'main contribution' > https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105127368&postcount=243

    Quite a smattering of poppies in Dun Laoghaire yesterday/lunchtime. Most ROI poppy sellers now in their late 80s/or 90s.


  • #531
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,401 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Remembrance Sunday is still over a week away.


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  • #532
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I got two poppies lunchtime/yesterday from a very old poppy seller in Dun Laoghaire, one for me one for the missus.....

    May I also remind you of my very last 'main contribution' > https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105127368&postcount=243

    Quite a smattering of poppies in Dun Laoghaire yesterday/lunchtime. Most ROI poppy sellers now in their late 80s/or 90s.


    I just don't get it, why would you give money to people on the basis of their being members of an institution that committed massacres on this island and then covered them up?
    As I understand it the people who slaughtered civilians in Ballymurphy, guys probably in their late 60s now, can benefit from the sale of poppies. Why would anyone want to be associated with that?
    I'm sure those old guys selling the poppies have their reasons, but I don't know why they don't direct their efforts into other charitable endeavours.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/26/-sp-ballymurphy-shootings-36-hours-west-belfast-northern-ireland-10-dead


  • #533
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭server down


    So did the poppy thread happen or not?


  • #534
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    While I don't like shrieking outrage and overreaction, I think the sale of the poppy and people wearing it in Ireland is quite offensive. It's something that has somehow been given a pass by the media, because it often gets tied up with long dead people from this country who had to join the British army due to poverty.

    My problem is that the very same British soldiers who slaughtered people in Ballymurphy and Derry in the 70s could be among those to benefit from funds raised by the sale of poppies. Former UK servicemen are protesting against being investigated for murders in Ireland, those are not heroes. I'm sure a huge amount of current and former British soldiers are nice guys, decent people, but the institution has a disgraceful record here and whitewashed those massacres.

    The poppy is not an appropriate way to remember our dead countrymen who died in the British uniform unfortunately. It's a very political symbol nowadays.

    As an aside, I watched BBC NI current affairs programmes twice this week and both times the presenter wore a poppy. Obviously inappropriate to identify with unionism on air, not very dissimilar to a presenter wearing a Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael badge in the south.
    Don't wear one then, allow those of us who do. Simple.


  • #535
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Sorry to keep harping on at you but the RBL poppy does, their website this year makes a big deal out of emphasising that it's about the armed forces past and present
    Yes, it commemorates those who have lost their lives in conflict, past and present; it isn't a general symbol of approval for the actions of the British military throughout history.

    As I said, many of the people I'm thinking of when I wear the poppy, were themselves victims of imperialist wars, forced to join the British army more out of poverty than any sense of country.

    I have never seen the RBL claim that the poppy represents approval for all soldiers and all of their actions. It represents something far simpler - those who gave their lives in (often pointless) conflicts. By defintion, this excludes the events at Ballymurphy and at Bloody Sunday.

    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    I just don't get it, why would you give money to people on the basis of their being members of an institution that committed massacres on this island and then covered them up?
    I'm sure I wouldn't approve of every recipient of welfare from the RBL's fund, just like I don't approve of everything my tax money is used for. I mean, I'm hardly going to start berating and interrogating the little old couple who've sold me my 2-euro poppy, am I? I'm primarly wearing it as an act of remembrance, and if most people are deserving of the small comfort it gives them in their later years, well then I'm perfectly happy.


  • #536
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Don't wear one then, allow those of us who do. Simple.
    Oh give it a rest will ye. Nobody is stopping you. You're not a victim here.


  • #537
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Don't wear one then, allow those of us who do. Simple.
    Oh give it a rest will ye. Nobody is stopping you. You're not a victim here.
    Don't try and get back into the good books of them, they don't like the fact you wear a poppy in Ireland, stand up for yourself and stop being weak about it.


  • #538
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Don't wear one then, allow those of us who do. Simple.

    Absolutely, I don''t advocate preventing anyone wearing anything.
    Just making the point that it is inappropriate. Amn't saying it's illegal or that it should be, just in bad taste, as people who committed atrocities in Ireland within living memory can benefit from the profits. There's no question of me saying anyone isn't allowed wear the poppy. I have one colleague who always wears it, I definitely don't feel it is appropriate but I wouldn't demand he not wear it or anything like that.


  • #539
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,756 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Poppies are very addictive... I think that's what heroin is made from.


  • #540
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Don't try and get back into the good books of them, they don't like the fact you wear a poppy in Ireland, stand up for yourself and stop being weak about it.
    Oh, lol. If I cared what people thought, I probably wouldn't wear a poppy in the first place. it isn't "weak" to accept that some people have legitimate, differing opinions; although I could use a few choice words for the kind of nonsense and attention-seeking I've seen on this thread, with f***-all interest demonstrated in Remembrance Day itself.

    There are people here 'defending' the poppy that I am 100% sure have no genuine interest in it, except to try appear controversial. That's 'help' that Remembrance Sunday does not need. Cop on to yourself will you.


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  • #541
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    I just don't get it, why would you give money to people on the basis of their being members of an institution that committed massacres on this island and then covered them up?
    As I understand it the people who slaughtered civilians in Ballymurphy, guys probably in their late 60s now, can benefit from the sale of poppies. Why would anyone want to be associated with that?
    I'm sure those old guys selling the poppies have their reasons, but I don't know why they don't direct their efforts into other charitable endeavours.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/26/-sp-ballymurphy-shootings-36-hours-west-belfast-northern-ireland-10-dead

    Many Irish people have relations who have served, or who are still serving in the British Armed Forces. There's a rich history of Irish involvement. Many Irish lost their lives in that uniform. They deserve to be remembered too.


This discussion has been closed.
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