Are we over the annual poppy thread?

indioblack · 02-11-2017 07:21PM

riffmongous wrote: »

That wasn't my point, what I meant was that you derided the white poppy in the basis of it representing everyone, both good and bad, yet you wear the red poppy which represents everyone who fought for the British, both good and bad. The men who committed Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy are included in that, as well as the genuinely deserving

I wonder does it make any difference if you have one symbol or two, since the taking of offence is possible in both - if people so choose.
I think that most of the remembrance with regard to the poppy is simply that - remembrance. It would be impossible to practically segregate those parts of British military history to avoid causing possible offence - and whilst I've said that the only logical solution would therefore be to have no commemoration - it's understood that this will not happen. Nor would I want it to.
Most people would know and understand why they buy a poppy.
One poster has rightly warned of the danger of the Poppy Appeal sliding into a tacky glorification of war - but I'd say this is not the case for the majority who purchase one.

evolving_doors · 02-11-2017 07:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick there. I was answering another poster, when Timbers got involved.

OK sorry. Drive on.

riemann · 02-11-2017 07:39PM

indioblack wrote: »

One poster has rightly warned of the danger of the Poppy Appeal sliding into a tacky glorification of war

That ship has sailed years ago.

02-11-2017 07:47PM

riffmongous wrote: »

The men who committed Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy are included in that, as well as the genuinely deserving

No UK soldiers died either in Bloody Sunday or at Ballymurphy, though. These soldiers and their actions are not being commemorated.

It is the White Poppy that claims to commemorate all of those killed in war, whether or not their cause was justified. That, to me, is unacceptable moral equivalence, and should not be encouraged.

kingchess · 02-11-2017 07:56PM

And the money raised by selling these poppies goes where?

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 07:56PM

indigoblack wrote:

i wonder does it make any difference if you have one symbol or two, since the taking of offence is possible in both - if people so choose.
I think that most of the remembrance with regard to the poppy is simply that - remembrance. It would be impossible to practically segregate those parts of British military history to avoid causing possible offence - and whilst I've said that the only logical solution would therefore be to have no commemoration - it's understood that this will not happen. Nor would I want it to.
Most people would know and understand why they buy a poppy.
One poster has rightly warned of the danger of the Poppy Appeal sliding into a tacky glorification of war - but I'd say this is not the case for the majority who purchase one.

'Wear your poppy to show your support for the Armed Forces, past and present this remembrance day' The RBL website

There is no way it can be claimed that the poppy is not political despite people wanting to select their own reasoning for wearing it.
It's a bit like saying I am wearing the swaztika because I like the pretty shape it is.
The 'ship has sailed' well and truly on that one.

02-11-2017 08:01PM

kingchess wrote: »

And the money raised by selling these poppies goes where?

80% of the money raised is used as a sort of 'Community Welfare Office' for ex soldiers and their dependents. It funds things like nursing homes care, facilities like toilets for disabled veterans who want to remain living at home, home-care packages, that kind of thing.

Most of the remainder is spent on administration and the like.

None of it goes towards military spending. or anything of the like.

02-11-2017 08:02PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's a bit like saying I am wearing the swaztika because I like the pretty shape it is.

Well, considering that many of the beneficiaries of the support have been those who fought Nazi tyranny, no; I wouldn't say that's a fair, or a sane, comparison.

02-11-2017 08:05PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No UK soldiers died either in Bloody Sunday or at Ballymurphy, though. These soldiers and their actions are not being commemorated.

It is the White Poppy that claims to commemorate all of those killed in war, whether or not their cause was justified. That, to me, is unacceptable moral equivalence, and should not be encouraged.

But the RBL who you are financially supporting when you buy* a poppy will support those murderers and any others when they need it, and as Francie points out the official poppy also claims support for all members of the armed forces, no matter whether their cause or actions were justified or not. How much better is that than than the white poppy?

*buying is the key word of course, I have no issue with a red poppy from a different source

indioblack · 02-11-2017 08:06PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Wear your poppy to show your support for the Armed Forces, past and present this remembrance day' The RBL website

There is no way it can be claimed that the poppy is not political despite people wanting to select their own reasoning for wearing it.
It's a bit like saying I am wearing the swaztika because I like the pretty shape it is.
The 'ship has sailed' well and truly on that one.

A comparison between the swastika and the poppy won't work.
Do you have a solution or compromise position?

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 08:06PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well, considering that many of the beneficiaries of the support have been those who fought Nazi tyranny, no; I wouldn't say that's a fair, or a sane, comparison.

If I can extract the tugging of heart strings out of that, I think you missed the point.
Pretending it isn't political when it is intended to be by the RBL is the conceit.

kingchess · 02-11-2017 08:09PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

80% of the money raised is used as a sort of 'Community Welfare Office' for ex soldiers and their dependents. It funds things like nursing homes care, facilities like toilets for disabled veterans who want to remain living at home, home-care packages, that kind of thing.

Most of the remainder is spent on administration and the like.

None of it goes towards military spending. or anything of the like.

So why the hell would any Irish person want to give money to ex British soldiers??Can not the British people do that?.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 08:12PM

indioblack wrote: »

A comparison between the swastika and the poppy won't work.
Do you have a solution or compromise position?

Well personally I remember all victims of conflict and would never countenance overtly provoking one set of victims of a conflict. Perhaps if you lived in a community that was affected you might understand.

I don't have issue with wearing a poppy, I ask that the wearer respects those around them and accepts that it is a political statement to remember only the dead of one side, much as they claim otherwise.
That shamrock and poppy one is particularly offensive given what we know of that slaughter.

02-11-2017 08:13PM

kingchess wrote: »

So why the hell would any Irish person want to give money to ex British soldiers??Can not the British people do that?.

Its interesting how no one ever asks why the RBL is still even needed, why doesn't the British Gov take care of it themselves?

02-11-2017 08:14PM

riffmongous wrote: »

But the RBL who you are financially supporting when you buy* a poppy will support those murderers

We can hardly have a serious debate if you're to continue depriving words like 'murder' of their legal and dictionary meaning.

The verb 'to kill' has quite a different meaning to that of 'to murder'

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If I can extract the tugging of heart strings out of that, I think you missed the point.
Pretending it isn't political when it is intended to be by the RBL is the conceit.

I don't pretend it isn't political! I don't wear a white poppy because the white poppy goes against the most basic political premise that I think is worth maintaining: there is a difference between right and wrong.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 08:16PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Its interesting how no one ever asks why the RBL is still even needed, why doesn't the British Gov take care of it themselves?

Unless you have the stuff and nonsense about honour and service you simply won't get the numbers to go off and die in squalid wars. That is why you have seen the rise in the RBL and the unquestioning public.

02-11-2017 08:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unless you have the stuff and nonsense about honour and service you simply won't get the numbers to go off and die in squalid wars.

Part of the reason why many people wear a poppy is precisely because of the squalor of many of the wars that men, as victims, were sent off to. The poppy is capable of capturing the violation of those lives, as well as the loss of life to others who fought in more 'just' wars, such as WW2.

02-11-2017 08:24PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

We can hardly have a serious debate if you're to continue depriving words like 'murder' of their legal and dictionary meaning.

The verb 'to kill' has quite a different meaning to that of 'to murder'
I don't pretend it isn't political! I don't wear a white poppy because the white poppy goes against the most basic political premise that I think is worth maintaining: there is a difference between right and wrong.

You don't think the likes of Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy were murder?

Odhinn · 02-11-2017 08:28PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

We can hardly have a serious debate if you're to continue depriving words like 'murder' of their legal and dictionary meaning.

If you go to Greece and talk about what British troops did in the 1960's in Cyprus, you're not going to get far with the above. Nor Egypt, Kenya, Burma and many other places across Asia, Africa and the middle East. If you return to what was Britains motivation the answer is ultimately "Imperialism" and that just doesn't fly.

buried · 02-11-2017 08:32PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Its interesting how no one ever asks why the RBL is still even needed, why doesn't the British Gov take care of it themselves?

"Take care of it?"

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 08:46PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Part of the reason why many people wear a poppy is precisely because of the squalor of many of the wars that men, as victims, were sent off to. The poppy is capable of capturing the violation of those lives, as well as the loss of life to others who fought in more 'just' wars, such as WW2.

And we are supposed to work out these nuances of intention, how exactly?

'Lest we forget' when they are specifically forgetting all the others who died just as pointlessly in just the same depth of squalour?

markodaly · 02-11-2017 08:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You want to honour the dead of one side and you wonder why it ends in political arguing?

Doesn't take a genius to work that out tbh.

One side? No, I said that each side can honour the dead in their own way but I suppose being tolerant of other people beliefs and culture is not something arm chair Irish Republicans are noted for.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 08:53PM

markodaly wrote: »

One side? No, I said that each side can honour the dead in their own way but I suppose being tolerant of other people beliefs and culture is not something arm chair Irish Republicans are noted for.

Well at least you admit it is one sided.

markodaly · 02-11-2017 08:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, well, well - after years of telling us it was an "international symbol of peace" you finally admit that the red British poppy is a tribal glorification of your side's imperialist escapades throughout the centuries. Thank you.

When did I tell you this, in your dreams last night? As I have never said it was an international peace symbol either. Perhaps lay off the methylated spirits.

Unlike your imperialist poppy, the Easter Lily represents freedom from British imperialist subjugation - yes, from your crowd and their centuries of dispossession, mass murder and cultural genocide in Ireland. I can see why poppy pushers resent it - yet another native attack on settler-colonial privileges in Ireland. That you think freedom fighters and Empire fighters are on the same moral plane graphically illustrates your disconnect from any conceivable moral compass.

My poppy? I don't own a poppy nor worn one. Not sure who my crowd are either, since I was born in Offaly but grew up in Dublin. I do have family who were in the British Army and US Army in WWI but I also have family who were involved in the IRA of the 1920's. So what does that make me my dear sir?

Can I get as personal as you do to everyone else with your inane drunken-esque rants about everything British. It was your kind that blew up 29 innocent men, women and kids in Omagh in 1996.

markodaly · 02-11-2017 09:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My, I wonder would that have anything to do with the fact that it is only this time of year that apologists for the British Empire like yourself are making an exceptional effort to push your little "The British Empire saved the world" narratives upon us all? Just as the Orange Order has its season in summer, you have yours at this time of year. In both cases, you are doing nothing but trying to rile the very community which suffered most from what you now glorify. So spare us this disingenuous "harmless commemoration" raiméis.

Also, would that your crowd could give the same freedoms on your tv stations to honourable British people who revile the warmongering and dehumanisation which the British Empire and its poppy cult seek to glorify every November. I've yet to see one of your tv presenters or sports presenters being allowed to not wear your poppy.

Was this you by any chance, as your rants sure fit the bill.

markodaly · 02-11-2017 09:03PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well at least you admit it is one sided.

Not sure if this is meant to be taken as a defeat but go ahead, I think you need it. I am not the one who is afraid of a person walking down the street wearing a Poppy. Never knew Irish Republicans were such sensitive souls.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 09:10PM

markodaly wrote: »

Not sure if this is meant to be taken as a defeat but go ahead, I think you need it. I am not the one who is afraid of a person walking down the street wearing a Poppy. Never knew Irish Republicans were such sensitive souls.

It is a discussion in a country where the mob doesn't get to shout down the other point of view.

I am not afraid of anything here. I have an objection and I am voicing it without vitriol. You might try voicing your point of view similarly. Just a thought.

munsterlegend · 02-11-2017 09:12PM

markodaly wrote: »

Was this you by any chance, as your rants sure fit the bill.

When you have to try and personalise it the argument is going against you.

markodaly · 02-11-2017 09:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a discussion in a country where the mob doesn't get to shout down the other point of view.

I am not afraid of anything here. I have an objection and I am voicing it without vitriol. You might try voicing your point of view similarly. Just a thought.

You are afraid of a poppy, a small 2 inch by 2 inch read, plastic/paper red flower with a black centre. You are on record in saying that it is being forced on you, yes forced on you as you find it offensive.

Bunreacht na hEireann protects anyone who wishes to do so consciously wear the Poppy. You want to ignore this Republic's constitution and stop people wearing it. And you call yourself an Irish Republican?

Joke of the year right there.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 09:19PM

markodaly wrote: »

You are afraid of a poppy, a small 2 inch by 2 inch read, plastic/paper red flower with a black centre. You are on record in saying that it is being forced on you, yes forced on you as you find it offensive.

Bunreacht na hEireann protects anyone who wishes to do so consciously wear the Poppy. You want to ignore this Republic's constitution and stop people wearing it. And you call yourself an Irish Republican?

Joke of the year right there.

Offence = fear.

Must have missed that day in school.

Are we over the annual poppy thread?

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