New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

eagle eye · 31-10-2017 12:33AM

Pretty disappointed to only get a second rounder for Jimmy G.

TOss Sweep · 31-10-2017 12:52AM

eagle eye wrote: »

Pretty disappointed to only get a second rounder for Jimmy G.

Did you honestly think he was worth more than a 2nd round pick? 49ers are sh1t right now which means that is going to be a high pick in the 2nd round. We are lucky to even get that for him. Clear as day now Brady will be around until he cant go anymore and jumping on this now is the right thing to do given he is worth nothing after the deadline.

BaronVon · 31-10-2017 01:19AM

I always thought Brady might be traded to the 49'ers, his boyhood club, to see out his career, if they thought Jimmy G was the real deal!

It's effectively a 1st round pick, for someone who'd be a free agent come summer, and I don't think we'd have the cap room to franchise him. We drafted him in the second, had him as backup for 4 years, and move up the draft board 4 years later. A good bit of business, unless Brady gets hurt, and then the season is over!

Foxtrol · 31-10-2017 01:38AM

infacteh wrote: »

I always thought Brady might be traded to the 49'ers, his boyhood club, to see out his career, if they thought Jimmy G was the real deal!

I think the only party trading Brady would suit is Jimmy G. Wouldn't make sense for any of 49ers, Patriots, nor Brady himself.

Don't think it is any reflection on how good Jimmy G is.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 31-10-2017 07:15AM

Until Brady shows signs of decline I’m not worried. And even then he may still be better than most other QBs.
Would liked to have kept Jimmy, but the franchise tag was the only option, which hurts other parts of the team.
SF will only have Jimmy for 8 games before they keep him on a big contract, franchise him, or let him walk; so a high 2nd round pick is as high as they could go.
From our point of view, we are weaker at QB backup, and it’ll depend on how well we use the pick.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2017 07:17AM

Looks likely that they bring in Hoyer as backup for the rest of the season, then I'm guessing they look to readdress the QB need in the draft. Bigger question is who they look to trade for before the end of the day to try and win this season? I assume they're looking for help on the defensive side, but perhaps also at WR/ TE, given the possibility Hogan is out for an extended period.

paulie21 · 31-10-2017 09:33AM

Calvin Johnson or Jimmy Graham would be dream trades. Probably could do with a linebacker though has Bowman signed with anyone?

BaronVon · 31-10-2017 10:45AM

Bowman went to Oakland

ELM327 · 31-10-2017 10:47AM

Strange move, would have expected a 1st tbh.
Trade only makes sense if TB12 is playing a few more years yet and maintaining his current high level of play.

TOss Sweep · 31-10-2017 12:32PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Strange move, would have expected a 1st tbh.
Trade only makes sense if TB12 is playing a few more years yet and maintaining his current high level of play.

Why some Pats fans think he is worth a 1st rd pick is beyond me. I think we are lucky to get what we go for him. He has played 2 regular season games in his career and while he played well is no measure on talent and no where close to being able to say he is worth a 1st rd.

Besides it turns out the Browns never made or considered trading 1st rd picks in the off season. In fact no one did. So why anyone thinks in the current NFL climate he is worth a 1st rd is just nuts.

I wish him well would have liked to see him stay but it was never going to happen and reports suggest the contract talks were notngoing in the Pats favor so dealing him was the right idea in the end.

ELM327 · 31-10-2017 01:15PM

I mean he was never going to be resigned to starter money, we couldnt really tag him, so he was always going to be traded (or released at the end of the season, worst case) assiuming bill believes brady can go for another few seasons.

Kid's shown flashes of ability to be a good starter in the league and he could have been the patriots starter if he was 4 years later. He deserves a shot and better to be a good organization like SF rather than the likes of the browns!

I'm just amazed in the QB driven league that someone wouldnt give a first.

Hazys · 31-10-2017 01:53PM

Getting a high 2nd round pick for a backup QB who is leaving at the end of the season is good business.

The only scary part is we currently have no backup for our 40 year old who is getting sacked at an alarming rate. Hopefully we pick up Hoyer or Kaepernick.

adrian522 · 31-10-2017 01:53PM

ELM327 wrote: »

He deserves a shot and better to be a good organization like SF rather than the likes of the browns!

I wouldn't exactly call the 49ers a good organization

Over the last 3 and half seasons they are 15-41 and 4 different head coaches. Not a great spot for a QB to be landing I don't think. No Offensive line, no receivers, no TE, below average defense.

TOss Sweep · 31-10-2017 01:59PM

Hazys wrote: »

Getting a high 2nd round pick for a backup QB who is leaving at the end of the season is good business.

The only scary part is we currently have no backup for our 40 year old who is getting sacked at an alarming rate. Hopefully we pick up Hoyer or Kaepernick.

I think someone already said it but Brian Hoyer. Released by 49ers.

One thing on the backup though if Brady goes down our season is over given the team we have. No backup QB is taking us to a bowl and winning it

phatkev · 31-10-2017 02:04PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I mean he was never going to be resigned to starter money, we couldnt really tag him, so he was always going to be traded (or released at the end of the season, worst case)

This pretty much answers your own question as to why they didn't get a 1st for him

Foxtrol · 31-10-2017 03:39PM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Why some Pats fans think he is worth a 1st rd pick is beyond me. I think we are lucky to get what we go for him. He has played 2 regular season games in his career and while he played well is no measure on talent and no where close to being able to say he is worth a 1st rd.

Besides it turns out the Browns never made or considered trading 1st rd picks in the off season. In fact no one did. So why anyone thinks in the current NFL climate he is worth a 1st rd is just nuts.

I wish him well would have liked to see him stay but it was never going to happen and reports suggest the contract talks were notngoing in the Pats favor so dealing him was the right idea in the end.

He’s not worth a 1st more so due to the Pats not having leverage from not being able to pay him rather than his lack of experience.

He was a late 2nd round pick and is now being traded for an early 2nd round pick after learning from a pair who many here believe to be GOATs and performing well when called upon. From the info we have I don’t think either side got fleeced in this, it was a pretty fair trade. Obviously, we could be talking either way in a few years.

TOss Sweep · 31-10-2017 03:43PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

He’s not worth a 1st more so due to the Pats not having leverage from not being able to pay him rather than his lack of experience.

I would argue even with Leverage lost he was never worth a 1st round pick given the current climate in trades.

He was a late 2nd round pick and is now being traded for an early 2nd round pick after learning from a pair who many here believe to be GOATs and performing well when called upon. From the info we have I don’t think either side got fleeced in this, it was a pretty fair trade. Obviously, we could be talking either way in a few years.

I agree both teams got a good deal. 49ers get a potentially good QB and Pats get a decent 2nd round pick

mcgratheoin · 31-10-2017 04:03PM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I would argue even with Leverage lost he was never worth a 1st round pick given the current climate in trades.

I think they probably could have got a 1st round for him had they traded him prior to the draft for a few reasons.

It was touted as a weak QB class - no slam dunk prospects
NE had made it fairly clear that they weren't open to offers so we didn't see a bidding war.
Browns' opening gambit was a 2nd round + change - with NE open to trades that would have gone up IMO.
Mike Glennon got $15m! - Free agency was not particularly rich in talent.

I would have thought that the Texans may have pulled the trigger from 25th rather than trading up for Watson, the Bears pick was a bit high but I wouldn't even have ruled out the Browns at 12 - particularly if they sent the 12th for Garoppolo plus a late rounder. All that is predicated on NE wanting to trade and shopping him around to create a competition.

TOss Sweep · 31-10-2017 04:26PM

mcgratheoin wrote: »

I think they probably could have got a 1st round for him had they traded him prior to the draft for a few reasons.
It was touted as a weak QB class - no slam dunk prospects

NE had made it fairly clear that they weren't open to offers so we didn't see a bidding war.

Browns' opening gambit was a 2nd round + change - with NE open to trades that would have gone up IMO.

Mike Glennon got $15m! - Free agency was not particularly rich in talent.

I would have thought that the Texans may have pulled the trigger from 25th rather than trading up for Watson, the Bears pick was a bit high but I wouldn't even have ruled out the Browns at 12 - particularly if they sent the 12th for Garoppolo plus a late rounder. All that is predicated on NE wanting to trade and shopping him around to create a competition.

Thing is though it has come out today the Pats received no offers for him in the off season and it also seems they truly believed they could get a contract done that would suit both teams.

But addressing your points:

- True the talent was lacklustre but teams dont give up draft picks that easy and the teams that do none of them did in the end even though speculation lead everyone to believe the Browns offered two first round picks which was false

- Did they though? The Patriots never actually came out and said he was or wasn't open for a trade. In fact we never know about Pats trades until they actually happen or the player is visiting the opposing team. So realistically none of us really know what went on behind closed doors with Jimmy.

- Browns were going to give us a first round pick for him. Had they we would have traded him in the summer in my eyes.

- Contract have nothing to do with it. Going rate for QBs is what 15-17m right now isn't it.

To sum up there was never a 1st round pick on the table and the Pats knew they weren't getting one and settled on contract talks. Had a 1st round pick been offered in the pre-season I strongly believe we would have taken it. What I feel clouded fan opinion was all the speculation especially that Browns offering 2 1st round picks.

Just to add if he was worth a 1st round pick he would be gone by now. It seems for once teams just weren't going to bite on a player with little or no experience to warrant a 1st round pick.

mcgratheoin · 01-11-2017 09:49AM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Thing is though it has come out today the Pats received no offers for him in the off season and it also seems they truly believed they could get a contract done that would suit both teams.

Good post, but the word on the street (which as you say isn't necessarily true) was that the Pats let it be known that they weren't open to offers. Everything is really tied up with whether that was the case or not. If the Browns made an offer and the Pats said "that's not enough to get him" that's different to them saying "he's not available for a trade".

- True the talent was lacklustre but teams dont give up draft picks that easy and the teams that do none of them did in the end even though speculation lead everyone to believe the Browns offered two first round picks which was false

I agree that teams are reluctant to give up picks but the Bears packaged two 3rds and a 4th to move up one spot for a QB. I'd find it hard to believe that they thought Trubisky (even on a rookie salary) was worth the 3rd, 67th, 111th pick plus a 3rd rounder next year but Garoppolo wasn't worth some combination or moving down and trading. Similarly Houston gave up 2 first round picks for Watson - he's worked out well but nobody had him as a slam dunk. Chiefs I can understand (a bit) - they needed the rookie salary for a backup development QB.

Did they though? The Patriots never actually came out and said he was or wasn't open for a trade. In fact we never know about Pats trades until they actually happen or the player is visiting the opposing team. So realistically none of us really know what went on behind closed doors with Jimmy.

Yeah, 100% true - we're mainly speculating but all the insiders seemed to be fairly sure he wasn't available. Sashi Brown said that the rumours about the Browns and Cousins were "bad reporting" but didn't deny going after Garoppolo.

Browns were going to give us a first round pick for him. Had they we would have traded him in the summer in my eyes.

What confuses me about this is why the Pats didn't shop him around a bit if they thought they could get a 1st. There's no way that it stays a secret if the Pats tell teams he's available so I'd wonder why they didn't have a look at what might be available for him. Did they genuinely think that the Browns 2nd plus change wasn't going to be beaten?

- Contract have nothing to do with it. Going rate for QBs is what 15-17m right now isn't it.

Money wasn't my point, I was just using Glennon as an example of the poor free agency quality.

Summing up from my opinion I find a few things puzzling.

If he was available for trade in pre-season why did the Pats not shop him around. The 49ers managed to extract a kings ransom from the Bears by shopping their pick around and creating the appearance (real or imagined) of demand for it. Why did the Pats not do the same if he was available.
Why trade him in the middle of the season leaving the QB position bereft of backup? Leaving in FA would return a 3rd rd draft pick so they've only moved up a round (close to 2 rds given the high 49ers pick).
If this was the plan at the beginning of the season, why trade Brissett? If it wasn't the plan, then what changed between now and then - what sort of deal did they genuinely think that they could get done?

Billy86 · 01-11-2017 12:33PM

Personally I think trading him before the season would have been a terrible idea. Brady is still Brady and looks like a 30 year old out there, but it was the right move to keep Jimmy there as insurance just in case his age did show (which can happen really, really quick). Once it was clear that was not going to be an issue for the year, then trading him off last minute makes sense. Pick up hoyer (more likely) or kaepernick for the next 8 weeks + playoffs and maybe spend a 2nd rounder in next year's draft on an eventual replacement for Brady if that guy is still there at the time.

Buy keeping him until the last minute was absolutely the right thing to do.

Shedite27 · 01-11-2017 12:40PM

I wonder if being Tom Brady's backup is seen as a negative around the league. Not many have done well from it, most have been busts elsewhere. If Brady is such a perfectionist that it's a bit too much "me, me, me".

Matt Cassell is the most famous (26-40 as a starter) but now a backup again.
Ryan Mallett, 3-5 as a starter, pretty much a career backup
Brian Hoyet, 16-21 as a starter, 49rs backup (just released)

StringerBell · 01-11-2017 01:08PM

No evidence at all that Brady is like Peyton Manning when it comes to his backups, in fact there is plenty of evidence of the exact opposite.

Shedite27 · 01-11-2017 01:32PM

StringerBell wrote: »

No evidence at all that Brady is like Peyton Manning when it comes to his backups, in fact there is plenty of evidence of the exact opposite.

Is the evidence nobody has ever had a winning career record after being his backup?

You can take from that what you will, but one argument has to be that whoever is under Brady isn't learning enough to be able to take that skillset elsewhere and make a successful career. I'm just trying to figure out why teams were unwilling to trade more for Jimmy. Has to be a concern if you're trading for a NE backup.

I realize Manning had a reputation for not allowing reps or garbage time, which is a separate issue.

eagle eye · 01-11-2017 03:25PM

The fact that former Patriots backups are still in the league long after they have left New England tells you all you need to know.

Hazys · 01-11-2017 05:00PM

3 year contract for Hoyer, nice backup but i wonder how much we spent?

Christy42 · 01-11-2017 05:41PM

Shedite27 wrote: »

Is the evidence nobody has ever had a winning career record after being his backup?

You can take from that what you will, but one argument has to be that whoever is under Brady isn't learning enough to be able to take that skillset elsewhere and make a successful career. I'm just trying to figure out why teams were unwilling to trade more for Jimmy. Has to be a concern if you're trading for a NE backup.

I realize Manning had a reputation for not allowing reps or garbage time, which is a separate issue.

Possibly a bigger factor is that they would hardly go after superstar qbs who would want a starting position before Brady retires. NE have had solid back up level back up qbs.

Who would you think is a good team to get back ups from?

TOss Sweep · 01-11-2017 07:23PM

Brings a good question how many guys sat behind a starter for multiple year to then go on and shine themselves. I wouldn't think the number is that high

Son Of A Vidic · 01-11-2017 07:32PM

Jimmy G for me was the best No. 2 on the QB roster I've seen since Brady took the reigns. It all came down to timing and if we had of drafted Jimmy in 2017/18? then maybe 4 years from now it would have worked out for him. That said the consistence brilliance of The GOAT wouldn't have even guaranteed that. The 40 year old Brady remains the best in the league and the biggest question is just keeping him healthy on the field. Jimmy was a great kid and I would have been happy for him to step into Brady's shoes when the time was right. Sadly, the timing was never going to be right though. But I wish Jimmy the best and I will be rooting for him. The Hoyer move makes sense, he is familiar with the offense and he will be happy to sit behind Brady until Brady hangs up his cleats.

TOss Sweep · 01-11-2017 09:46PM

A lot of talk today about the Jimmy trade and that Kraft is the reason Tom Brady is still starting for the Patriots. Apparently Bill was ready to roll with Jimmy and trade Brady but Kraft stepped in. On my phone but plenty of articles knocking around the last couple of hours. Usual "Sources" being quoted

One of the things they mentioned is that it seems like Bill was pining after Jimmy and honestly it is clear he didn't want to trade him. So there is some stock to Bill wanting to keep Jimmy but as for the Brady thing who knows how true any of these reports are but I said before it wouldn't shock me if we traded Brady and rolled with Jimmy.

New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

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