Attic going to be converted. Need advice

DOCARCH · 27-07-2017 07:19AM

Mod Note: @ johnny_adidas. I have removed that link, not necessarily for advertising reasons, but for the reason that I consider the 'advice' provided (by the attic conversion company) is not all good, factual or accurate!

Copy and paste below of the insurance bit you mention:

We sent the following email to five insurance companies.

“I am considering converting my attic and wondered how that will affect my house insurance policy”?.

Here are the responses:-

Allianzdirect.ie
Thank you for your email. In relation to your query, there are no specific terms and conditions for attic conversion. However if it is been converted to a bedroom and you classify it as an extra bedroom you will have to notify the insurance company. You would also need to increase your contents sums insured if the attic is going to be fully furnished. This will add an additional premium to your policy.

Aviva Direct Ireland
Thank you for your email.
We request you to provide us with your policy number, In order for us to further assist you.
We request you to provide us with your contact number and convenient time, In order for an advisor from our Customer Service Department to contact you.

Zurich
Thank you for your email.
There would be no change in cover if the attic is converted. However you would need to revalue your house after same to ensure that the insured sum is adequate and you are not underinsured.

AXA Insurance
Converting the attic will not affect your insurance in any way. Once completed, however, you may wish to re-assess the buildings sum insured to reflect any change in the property's rebuilding cost.
Please contact us on 1890 247 365 if you have any queries.

FBD Insurance
Good Morning,
Many thanks for you email. Please be advised for us to discuss your query further we will need to speak to you. If you could please forward your home insurance policy number along with a contact number for yourself.

DOCARCH · 27-07-2017 07:21AM

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Just remember, someone sleeping up there, even just irregularly makes it a habitable room.

+1

A fire officer in Dublin City Council once told me that the criteria is that if your mother can get up there....it's habitable.

Dardania · 27-07-2017 07:26AM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Came here to suggest this - helpful guide

Subzero3 · 27-07-2017 07:32AM

From info i gathered so far not many conversions could be classed as habitable. I seen one recently with no door just stairs from room.

Gumbo · 27-07-2017 01:38PM

Subzero3 wrote: »

From info i gathered so far not many conversions could be classed as habitable. I seen one recently with no door just stairs from room.

Habitable is irrelevant. Think accessible.
That house is in breech of the building regulations and in particular, Part B, Fire Safety.

Sounds like you are just waiting for one person to say it will be alright to cure your consciousness, but that won't happen unfortunately.

The truth of the matter is, you are adding an additional storey to ththe dwelling, once it's accessible by a perm at staircase, it becomes a 3 storey dwelling.

seamus · 27-07-2017 01:44PM

kceire wrote: »

Habitable is irrelevant. Think accessible.
That house is in breech of the building regulations and in particular, Part B, Fire Safety.

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

Gumbo · 27-07-2017 04:11PM

seamus wrote: »

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

The fire regs clearly state additional storey and that's what I base my professional judgement on. Others may disagree but that's my interpretation of the regulations.

db · 27-07-2017 04:36PM

OP, it sounds like there have been no materials ordered yet so your builder has not incurred any costs other than his own time. I think you should seriously consider telling him that you need to pull back and think about it a bit more before you proceed and get your deposit back. Leaving him €500 out of the deposit should cover for the time he has spent.

I would be very wary of having someone do this kind of work on my house having never done it before and also having people that you don't know working in your house while you are away is a bad idea. I see all sorts of alarm bells here and you should try and get out of it with as little loss as possible. It will cost you a lot more than €5K if it all goes wrong.

Penn · 27-07-2017 04:44PM

seamus wrote: »

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

Permanent accessibility. Habitable room is defined as

Habitable room - A room used for living or
sleeping purposes but does not include a
kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2
, a
bathroom, toilet or shower room.

Access to a room via a Stira doesn't constitute a room for living purposes because the available access to it is designed to be used infrequently and not able to be used by all occupants of the house (eg. children or elderly persons or the ambulant disabled). A permanent staircase means that access to the room (and therefore the room itself) is designed to be used regularly by any occupants of the house (providing the stairs meet the requirements of Part B, Part K and Part M.

If an attic room is permanently accessible by all occupants of the house and used either for a bedroom or for general living purposes, it's a habitable room and falls under Fire Reg requirements as an additional storey to the house.

seamus · 27-07-2017 04:55PM

Penn wrote: »

If an attic room is permanently accessible by all occupants of the house and used either for a bedroom or for general living purposes, it's a habitable room and falls under Fire Reg requirements as an additional storey to the house.

Right.

You know what I'm getting at here.

Having a permanent stairs up to the attic, in and of itself, doesn't make it fall under the fire regs.

I'm aware a lot of people here feel the need to dot the i's and the cross the t's, but having a permanent staircase, a door and a nicely decorated attic space, does not make it an habitable room and does not automatically require all of the other fun that comes with that. It's only an habitable room if the plan is to use it for general living purposes.

The fire regs are there for a reason, and anyone contemplating a "conversion" of this nature should give due regard to the safety of their family above the false economy you get from a cheaper conversion.

But the proposed work in the OP is not automatically outside of the regs just because it includes a staircase.

My main concern with these kinds of works is what they're going to do with rafters in the attic space. It's insane the amount of conversions that just chop or remove the rafters and slot in a piece of support elsewhere without properly looking at the underlying engineering. This is the issue that will affect insurance or resale the most.

Penn · 27-07-2017 05:08PM

No I agree. If it's not used as a bedroom or general living space it doesn't count as a habitable room and as per Appendix D of the new Part B Volume 2 for dwelling houses, "In the case of an existing two storey dwelling house to which a storey is to be added by converting the existing roof space into habitable accommodation, the converted dwelling house should comply with the provisions of 1.3.3." - this does not apply.

However, to me (and likely others reading this), OP has quite clearly indicated it's going to be used as a bedroom

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thanks seamus. Ya I'm happy for it to be called fancy storage room if the roof don't blow off down the line. If it was not to be called bed room but they will abviously cut through walls ceiling etc what concerns should I have. If I need sell down the line.

Subzero3 wrote: »

To be honest if its just a room to use as a place to sleep for short term i am happy to not have it classed as a bed room.

It may not legally be classed as a bedroom, but if the OP is using it as a bedroom, then the main point he needs to take away is, in your own words:

"The fire regs are there for a reason, and anyone contemplating a "conversion" of this nature should give due regard to the safety of their family above the false economy you get from a cheaper conversion."

OP, it's a member of your family that's going to be sleeping up there. You need to consider fire safety, not what the room might be classed as if you go sell the house in a few years. Priorities, man. Priorities.

john9876 · 27-07-2017 05:56PM

db wrote: »

OP, it sounds like there have been no materials ordered yet so your builder has not incurred any costs other than his own time. I think you should seriously consider telling him that you need to pull back and think about it a bit more before you proceed and get your deposit back. Leaving him €500 out of the deposit should cover for the time he has spent.

I would be very wary of having someone do this kind of work on my house having never done it before and also having people that you don't know working in your house while you are away is a bad idea. I see all sorts of alarm bells here and you should try and get out of it with as little loss as possible. It will cost you a lot more than €5K if it all goes wrong.

Totally agree, lose a grand if neccessary .... a small price to pay for peace of mind.

DOCARCH · 27-07-2017 06:05PM

My tuppence worth and simple criteria (I use with clients)....

Fixed staircase = habitable.

Ladder/drop down stairs = storage.

sydthebeat · 27-07-2017 07:06PM

If it walks like a duck....

Staplor · 27-07-2017 08:12PM

I had looked into it before and was told that to get it recognised as a bedroom that the entire house would need to meet modern regulations, lowered light switches etc. Is that all wring, or would it just be the be addition that would need to be to modern standards?

Gumbo · 27-07-2017 09:14PM

Staplor wrote: »

I had looked into it before and was told that to get it recognised as a bedroom that the entire house would need to meet modern regulations, lowered light switches etc. Is that all wring, or would it just be the be addition that would need to be to modern standards?

You were advised incorrectly.
The light switches are a Part M issue, not a Part A or Part B issue.

The new works must comply, the biggest effect on the existing house is the addition of self closers to the existing doorways into bedrooms and sitting rooms etc

*purposely ignoring the structural and fire safety works that. We'd to take place Ina be around the attic.

Sausage dog · 27-07-2017 09:52PM

You may not need to alter your plans much but it is worth checking the relevant documents. eg. If putting in velux windows, the height of the velux windows above the ground is important. If putting in windows, the size of window opening & type of opening is also important. If going to the expense of putting in new windows make sure they comply as the difference in cost may be minimal but may affect future sale of house. This is aside from the more important issue of the safety of whoever uses this space

Subzero3 · 28-07-2017 06:11AM

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

db · 28-07-2017 07:11AM

Subzero3 wrote: »

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

Good luck

Gumbo · 28-07-2017 10:37AM

Subzero3 wrote: »

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

No need to cancel him, just insist on it being done properly, engage an Engineer and get the builder to follow his design.

Subzero3 · 28-07-2017 01:04PM

kceire wrote: »

No need to cancel him, just insist on it being done properly, engage an Engineer and get the builder to follow his design.

Well, he came with an engineer. Explained to me about Parlins, 9x2 across the floor. Fireproofing downstairs doors, adding fire alarm, escape window, adding firedoor. We told builder we didn't factor this in and there's no way we'd get all this for the price.

Engineer offered to do a drawing, and it could be used and he would sign off when work was finished.

Told builder we will consider over weekend. He said he ordered stuff but could cancel most. And we said if we didn't agree to start we would give him some money for waiting his time.

We could get engineer even if we don't go ahead to do drawing. So might be good to have. Quoted 350 for spec drawing. And maybe 150 to 200 to sign off x 2 if we use him.

looksee · 28-07-2017 01:07PM

Did you check out the engineer's credentials?

Subzero3 · 28-07-2017 01:10PM

looksee wrote: »

Did you check out the engineer's credentials?

I got his name, number and address. I'll Google him later.

On that note is there anywhere I can see a list of registered/qualified engineers.

Gumbo · 28-07-2017 09:14PM

Subzero3 wrote: »

I got his name, number and address. I'll Google him later.

On that note is there anywhere I can see a list of registered/qualified engineers.

www.engineersireland.ie

Type his name into the member search box.

Subzero3 · 29-07-2017 09:29PM

kceire wrote: »

www.engineersireland.ie

Type his name into the member search box.

I did, nothing on that. He did have a company registered to his name between 2012-2014. But company status is dissolved.

Attic going to be converted. Need advice

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