Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

corkdave · 02-07-2017 01:58PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

...
...
That's the last time I ever really associated with a traveller. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't.
...

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

Irish Guitarist, is that not the essence of prejudice, when you yourself say you are "..sure they're not all like that...", and in the same post you imply that they all are, with the words "... knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life." ?

corkdave · 02-07-2017 02:25PM

nearly_40 wrote: »

corkdave , the same double standards exists when it comes to those who champion travellers ethnicity and culture

it is part of traveller culture to view taking advantage of settled people as ok , if you dont know or believe this , you simply do not understand travellers

nearly_40, I respectfully disagree.
Travellers are economic nomads. That is the basis of their culture. Their existence depends on being able to identify niche markets, and moving to trade within those markets when opportunities arise.
I am from a small farm, where I first became aware of Travellers when I was a very small child. I did not know until later why their lives are so different from ours, i.e. the settled community (assuming you are not a Traveller).
Over 50 years later I still meet Travellers occasionally. I have lived and worked in many walks of life, including some years with Traveller themselves, but mostly with non-Travellers.
I have seen a lot of life, and know full well that no group in the world is made up entirely of the sort of people who you would feel comfortable with. Travellers are no exception, but that is not a reason to treat them all with suspicion or worse.
So, you say "... it is part of traveller culture to view taking advantage of settled people as ok".
How do you define "taking advantage"?
Is it their superb negotiation skills when buying or selling goods and services?
Is it their uncanny ability to identify and earn a living from marginal economic activities that are spurned by the majority of settled people?
Is it the wealth that many families generated from recycling for 50 years before the majority settled community noticed this goldmine?

sbsquarepants · 03-07-2017 12:00PM

corkdave wrote: »

Is it the wealth that many families generated from recycling for 50 years before the majority settled community noticed this goldmine?

Recycling is one way of putting it I suppose!

Roger Hassenforder · 03-07-2017 12:45PM

corkdave wrote: »

nearly_40, I respectfully disagree.
Travellers are economic nomads. That is the basis of their culture. Their existence depends on being able to identify niche markets, and moving to trade within those markets when opportunities arise.
I am from a small farm, where I first became aware of Travellers when I was a very small child. I did not know until later why their lives are so different from ours, i.e. the settled community (assuming you are not a Traveller).
Over 50 years later I still meet Travellers occasionally. I have lived and worked in many walks of life, including some years with Traveller themselves, but mostly with non-Travellers.
I have seen a lot of life, and know full well that no group in the world is made up entirely of the sort of people who you would feel comfortable with. Travellers are no exception, but that is not a reason to treat them all with suspicion or worse.
So, you say "... it is part of traveller culture to view taking advantage of settled people as ok".
How do you define "taking advantage"?
Is it their superb negotiation skills when buying or selling goods and services?
Is it their uncanny ability to identify and earn a living from marginal economic activities that are spurned by the majority of settled people?
Is it the wealth that many families generated from recycling for 50 years before the majority settled community noticed this goldmine?

Even travellers themselves would blush at such tearyeyed rosy retrospection of their "culture".

I can vaguely remember coming across a group of travellers in their little horse drawn wagons, my father remarking "remember this kids, you won't see it again". He'd have stories of travellers coming to the farm offering labour. Those days are long gone.

Travellers are predominantly (and evidentially) social welfare beneficiaries, with "some" supplementing their income with economic opportunism, exploiting customers with substandard goods and services e.g. Tarmac, guttering, paint, electrical goods, waste management, further supplemented by theft and coercion of vulnerable (aged, isolated) not willing to engage their services.

We could all generate a fortune with niche enterprises such as stripping copper pipes and electrical cables from empty houses and building sites, roadside telecom and ESB cables, burning the plastic off on shopping trolleys, and flogging the metal.

Most of the recent waste recycling legislation is an attempt to combat this enriching aspect of their culture.

Professor Moriarty · 03-07-2017 12:46PM

corkdave wrote: »

nearly_40, I respectfully disagree.
Travellers are economic nomads. That is the basis of their culture. Their existence depends on being able to identify niche markets, and moving to trade within those markets when opportunities arise.
I am from a small farm, where I first became aware of Travellers when I was a very small child. I did not know until later why their lives are so different from ours, i.e. the settled community (assuming you are not a Traveller).
Over 50 years later I still meet Travellers occasionally. I have lived and worked in many walks of life, including some years with Traveller themselves, but mostly with non-Travellers.
I have seen a lot of life, and know full well that no group in the world is made up entirely of the sort of people who you would feel comfortable with. Travellers are no exception, but that is not a reason to treat them all with suspicion or worse.
So, you say "... it is part of traveller culture to view taking advantage of settled people as ok".
How do you define "taking advantage"?
Is it their superb negotiation skills when buying or selling goods and services?
Is it their uncanny ability to identify and earn a living from marginal economic activities that are spurned by the majority of settled people?
Is it the wealth that many families generated from recycling for 50 years before the majority settled community noticed this goldmine?

That's remarkably at variance with the experiences of the vast majority of posters on here. Lucky you.

Game Face MCGee · 03-07-2017 12:57PM

a traveler raped and battered a woman in carlow last week, left her for dead on "ironically" the grounds of a funeral home. sound bunch of lads alright

03-07-2017 01:57PM

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

a traveler raped and battered a woman in carlow last week, left her for dead on "ironically" the grounds of a funeral home. sound bunch of lads alright

Chinese people do that too. Indians. Dubs. Black people. Italians, Spanish, Americans etc etc. All sorts do.

whisky_galore · 03-07-2017 02:59PM

Swanner wrote: »

I remember seeing a traveler beating a woman (I assume his wife) with a stick in the middle of the road near where we live when I was about 4.

I still remember it like it was yesterday.. It had some effect on my young mind at the time and i recall being extremely upset.

Not before or since have I seen a man beating a woman and I hope I never do again.

I suppose that's just one more anecdote in a very very long line of anecdotes on this thread but I wonder what started the cycle of weariness for me ?

The difference with settled people is they do their wife beating behind closed doors.

Game Face MCGee · 03-07-2017 03:04PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

a traveler raped and battered a woman in carlow last week, left her for dead on "ironically" the grounds of a funeral home. sound bunch of lads alright

Chinese people do that too. Indians. Dubs. Black people. Italians, Spanish, Americans etc etc. All sorts do.

tell that to the victim,
" sure everyone does a bit of raping, don't blame the traveler who did it or hold any bad view of the group he belongs"

03-07-2017 03:10PM

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

tell that to the victim,

Great point, well made.

What do we say to the victim of Larry Murphy. All white Irish people are bad news? What do we say to the victims of the Rotherham abuse rings, all Muslims are likely to get you? What do we say to the victim of Kenneth Udeh in Waterford, all Africans are sex offenders?

....... · 03-07-2017 03:11PM

This post has been deleted.

ads20101 · 03-07-2017 05:28PM

I've read this thread from the start and have found it extremely interesting.

Before I start, I feel that it is worth stating that I am not an Irish native but have lived and worked here for the best part of 20 years.

I have had good and bad experiences with travellers:

Bad

1/ I work in the caring profession and not long after I arrived in Ireland travellers took over a large area of grounds (without permission). As I said, I had no frame of reference at this point but there were extremely vulnerable people being looked after here. There were several incidents but there were 2 main incidents that stood out due to their severity. Firstly, a dog was set on a vulnerable person and secondly another person was punched in the face for simply walking past the caravans. I thought that due to the fact that they were here illegally and were assaulting people the guards would charge the people concerned and move them on. I was surprised when neither happened. The guards seemed inept, scared, and impotent.

The travellers left of their own accord after several months.

2/ Recently, travellers took over some council land near to where I was working.

During this time there were multiple burglaries at local businesses (including at my work). Fires (how are they allowed to burn rubbish?).

Once again the guards appeared incapable to move them on stating it was the councils problem. The council appeared to only welcome them by putting in port-a-loos and fresh water as they apparently complained that their illegal site was unsanitary. While I am on the subject they had no problem chucking their rubbish over the walls into other peoples private property, thus creating a further expense to ordinary business owners.

While they were there I managed to get a good look at them. For people with such a low employment rate, they do appear to be able to afford new caravans and new cars (several 4x4's and all bar two post 161 reg - the other two had N Irish reg plates and I was unable to work out the dates off those!)

Once again they left at their own accord after several months.

When they left the council had to bring in a digger to clean up the mess, as there was so much of it.

Good

This is probably more of a confession.

I have to travel a fair bit due to work, and one time I was on a train with a traveller girl sitting opposite me.

She was really polite, chatty and rather good looking (well above my pay grade, if you know what I mean).

She offered me half her lunch (which I declined). But when it came to change train I purposely let her out first so that I could go out the other end of the carriage. I noticed that she was also on the platform to catch the next train that I was about to. I proceeded to walk further away. I caught her eye and she appeared hurt. In that moment I knew she knew what I had / was doing.

I was a shît and she knew it!!

I was being prejudicial and she knew it!!

I still feel shîty to this day for the blatant disregard I gave someone just because of their ethnicity. I really didn't think I was like that - it's not me (honest) and I am sure I wouldn't be that rude again. It was a period of reflection and was a true learning curve.

Well... that's just my experience - don't judge me too harshly.

Are Am Eye · 03-07-2017 05:33PM

I wonder do travellers get a discount from the Traveller Insurance Company.
If they don't I think it is a good marketing opportunity for them.

Roger Hassenforder · 03-07-2017 05:33PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

The difference with settled people is they do their wife beating behind closed doors.

....... wrote: »

Actually the difference with settled people is that they 30 times less likely to experience domestic violence:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/traveller-women-30-times-more-likely-to-suffer-domestic-violence-report-1.707916

Ooooo. A statistics burn. The worst kind.
Put some water on that.

03-07-2017 05:34PM

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

a traveler raped and battered a woman in carlow last week, left her for dead on "ironically" the grounds of a funeral home. sound bunch of lads alright

And here you are, using a violent rape to score points about a type of people, as if rape is specific to a particular group. Which is very sound of you.

Roger Hassenforder · 04-07-2017 07:50AM

....... wrote: »

Actually the difference with settled people is that they 30 times less likely to experience domestic violence:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/traveller-women-30-times-more-likely-to-suffer-domestic-violence-report-1.707916

Even that may be flawed (it may actually be higher).

Chapter 6 has an interesting report from a (albeit one) traveller focus group on traveller attitudes towards sexual assault for the 1 in 4 group

http://www.oneinfour.ie/content/resources/savi.pdf

Game Face MCGee · 04-07-2017 12:36PM

newstalk, this morning, did a piece on tradesmen who cant get insurance for their van contents and workshop contents. We all know who's doing the majority of this robbing but cant say it

end of the road · 04-07-2017 12:52PM

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

newstalk, this morning, did a piece on tradesmen who cant get insurance for their van contents and workshop contents. We all know who's doing the majority of this robbing but cant say it

can't you? why who's stopping you?

or is it you mean you can't prove it and you will be asked for evidence, so have decided that somehow corralates to being stopped from saying it.

seachto7 · 04-07-2017 01:26PM

end of the road wrote: »

can't you? why who's stopping you?

or is it you mean you can't prove it and you will be asked for evidence, so have decided that somehow corralates to being stopped from saying it.

Oh ffs, come out of the fog.

Game Face MCGee · 10-07-2017 11:42AM

end of the road wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

newstalk, this morning, did a piece on tradesmen who cant get insurance for their van contents and workshop contents. We all know who's doing the majority of this robbing but cant say it

can't you? why who's stopping you?

or is it you mean you can't prove it and you will be asked for evidence, so have decided that somehow corralates to being stopped from saying it.

I've no problem in saying it, travelers are robbing sites up and down the country blind. Hard to prove tho, they move on their fruits fairly quickly but anyone I know who got their tools back, got them back from travelers. well the guards got them back. so take from that what you want

corkdave · 11-07-2017 08:19PM

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

I've no problem in saying it, travelers are robbing sites up and down the country blind. Hard to prove tho, they move on their fruits fairly quickly but anyone I know who got their tools back, got them back from travelers. well the guards got them back. so take from that what you want

And your point is?

Roger Hassenforder · 12-07-2017 07:48AM

corkdave wrote: »

And your point is?

his point was indubitable...

BrokenArrows · 12-07-2017 08:12AM

So many people in this thread up on their high horses defending the travelers.

I challenge any one of you to find a halting site that is clean, well taken care of and the immediate surrounding area also clean and taken care of.

You wont find one unless its just been built. Give it a week and it will be wrecked with piles of trash, damaged and burned caravans, horses tied up on the roadside, cars and caravans parked outside the entrances.

I challenge any one of you to walk around a halting site like you would any random housing estate.

12-07-2017 08:37AM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

So many people in this thread up on their high horses defending the travelers.

I challenge any one of you to find a halting site that is clean, well taken care of and the immediate surrounding area also clean and taken care of.

You wont find one unless its just been built. Give it a week and it will be wrecked with piles of trash, damaged and burned caravans, horses tied up on the roadside, cars and caravans parked outside the entrances.

I challenge any one of you to walk around a halting site like you would any random housing estate.

And...kinda...so what?

Do people who clip their hedges and wash their cars every Sunday matter more?

If my 4 year old daughter was coming home crying, and my wife was crying because of her treatment at the hands of others, I challenge any adult to decide they'd want to keep their environs neat and tidy so as not to upset those very same people.

Roger Hassenforder · 12-07-2017 08:46AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And...kinda...so what?

Do people who clip their hedges and wash their cars every Sunday matter more?

If my 4 year old daughter was coming home crying, and my wife was crying because of her treatment at the hands of others, I challenge any adult to decide they'd want to keep their environs neat and tidy so as not to upset those very same people.

No, but if I want my hedges clipped, or my car washed, I get off my ars3 and do it myself.

So travellers not maintaing their state provided accomadation in a (relatively) neat and tidy manner, is really "putting it to the man", a form of retaliation if you will, or dumping rubbish/crap around them is a result of their ostracisation rather than a contributing factor? And we're infringing their human rights by not providing more such facilities...

I'd keep my environs neat and tidy for several reasons:
It's the right thing to do.
It's healthier
Personal pride in the place I live
It's not someone else's responsibility to clean up my crap. It's my crap, my responsibility.

end of the road · 12-07-2017 08:51AM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

So many people in this thread up on their high horses defending the travelers.

yes, defending those travelers who haven't done anything but are being tarred with the same brush as those who have, by people who wouldn't dare try that nonsense with other groups because they wouldn't get away with it.

BrokenArrows · 12-07-2017 09:40AM

end of the road wrote: »

yes, defending those travelers who haven't done anything but are being tarred with the same brush as those who have, by people who wouldn't dare try that nonsense with other groups because they wouldn't get away with it.

I'm sorry but bull****. Travelers are doing something wrong by simply living the way they live.

Their lifestyle requires taxpayers to fund it. Regardless of whether they are legally in a halting site or illegally on some other land the councils fund them.

If I decided to travel the country in a caravan I would need to pay my own way and camp in legal camp sites. Nothing would be provided to me.

That's before we take into account their unemployment rates yet they are still able to afford better cars than I could afford. They must be very good savers!!

Widdershins · 12-07-2017 09:56AM

Thanks for sharing this. My friend (a traveller) was just recently telling me about walking into a shop where there was a radio show on, discussing travellers. She felt like everyone was looking at her. It's just lousy.

12-07-2017 10:01AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So travellers not maintaing their state provided accomadation in a (relatively) neat and tidy manner, is really "putting it to the man", a form of retaliation if you will, or dumping rubbish/crap around them is a result of their ostracisation rather than a contributing factor? And we're infringing their human rights by not providing more such facilities...

I'd keep my environs neat and tidy for several reasons:
It's the right thing to do.
It's healthier
Personal pride in the place I live
It's not someone else's responsibility to clean up my crap. It's my crap, my responsibility.

No no, I'm not their spokesperson. So can't say their issues with private property and appearance are all down to "putting it to the man". It might be a bit more than that, I suspect ghettoes of ethnic groups in many areas where they suffer discrimination are not exactly easy on the eye.

And don't think this a human rights issue. The human rights issues were outlined by Council of Europe. they also analysed our responsibilities. I think the evidence pointed to facilities with open sewers and the like provided by local authorities.

Gravelly · 12-07-2017 10:01AM

Widdershins wrote: »

Thanks for sharing this. My friend (a traveller) was just recently telling me about walking into a shop where there was a radio show on, discussing travellers. She felt like everyone was looking at her. It's just lousy.

Poor girl. I know how she feels, I was in a shop recently and they had a show on discussing men. I felt like everyone was looking at me. It was lousy.*

*The above may or may not be an apocryphal story designed to expose the pointlessness of another posters contribution.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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