Jobstown 6 Not Guilty

FrancieBrady · 02-07-2017 04:11PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. But it's important that the victim's experience is forefront of any discussion of the thugs' actions.

It was at the forefront for two years and then we found out that the wrong people were taken to court for it. David Begg of a Labour aligned Union claimed vociferously that the two women were beaten and kicked during those two years and there isn't a shred of evidence that has emerged from hundreds of videos that this is what happened for instance.
And some of us want to know was it an independent and fair decision to take them to court or a politically motivated one.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2017 04:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was at the forefront for two years and then we found out that the wrong people were taken to court for it. David Begg of a Labour aligned Union claimed vociferously that the two women were beaten and kicked during those two years and there isn't a shred of evidence that has emerged from hundreds of videos that this is what happened for instance.
And some of us want to know was it an independent and fair decision to take them to court or a politically motivated one.

I doubt if it was political. If what happened to Burton happened to any other citizen then the DPP would have taken the case. The only issue I have is that the Guards seem to have given dodgy evidence.

FrancieBrady · 02-07-2017 04:26PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

. The only issue I have is that the Guards seem to have given dodgy evidence.

You cannot have a number of Gardai giving 'dodgy evidence' in a trial involving political figures without having a closer look. Certainly not given the recent and ongoing issues with our Garda force. That is why there should be an enquiry.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2017 04:37PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You cannot have a number of Gardai giving 'dodgy evidence' in a trial involving political figures without having a closer look. Certainly not given the recent and ongoing issues with our Garda force. That is why there should be an enquiry.

There is no doubt An Garda might have felt under pressure but that doesn't mean there was political interference from any angle. The force needs serious cleaning up and their part in all of this should be part of that. Can't see that an enquiry will be set up though and I doubt if much would be achieved.

FrancieBrady · 02-07-2017 04:39PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There is no doubt An Garda might have felt under pressure but that doesn't mean there was political interference from any angle.

Nor does it mean that there wasn't.

seamus · 03-07-2017 08:26AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I doubt if it was political. If what happened to Burton happened to any other citizen then the DPP would have taken the case. The only issue I have is that the Guards seem to have given dodgy evidence.

Spoke to a number of Gardai about the whole case.

The overwhelming opinion from them is that the DPP went in too heavy-handed. If they had gone for simpler public disorder and assault offences, the case would have been open and shut. Whether Gardai had lied is unknown. Memories are far from infallible and a snippet of video evidence out of several hours or real-time events doesn't prove deceit.

Also got a sense that the Gardai were damned if they do and damned if they don't. Hindsight says that they should have whipped the batons out and beaten the crowd back, but they didn't do it because of the questions that would raise. Instead, they got a whole other world of sh1t for trying to do the right thing.

In future when this crowd of "protestors" appears anywhere, the Gardai will be whipping out the batons rather than letting this kind of circus develop again. Better to beg forgiveness...etc.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 08:45AM

Interesting POV.
Gardai have received carte blanche to wade into protesters with batons as a result of a protest where nobody ended up being injured.

seamus · 03-07-2017 08:54AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Interesting POV.
Gardai have received carte blanche to wade into protesters with batons as a result of a protest where nobody ended up being injured.

No, just some innocent people were spat on, screamed at, had their property damaged and then had to endure verbal abuse and intimidation from a crowd for a few hours.

No harm done, sure.

LuckyLloyd · 03-07-2017 08:56AM

Kinda don't care what Gardai think at present. Wouldn't be an esteemed opinion anymore considering the raft of scandals and issues, their systemically incorrect testimony in this case being just the latest incident.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 08:56AM

seamus wrote: »

No, just some innocent people were spat on, screamed at, had their property damaged and then had to endure verbal abuse and intimidation from a crowd for a few hours.

No harm done, sure.

Yes, let's crack a few heads open with batons, do you want tear gas and attack dogs too? Rubber bullets?

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 09:08AM

I absolutely love the reaction from people, totally different spectrum because it's a TD they don't particularly like, possibly holding her to blame for their own misfortune.

That the people involved in the case got away without any sanction or ruling is down to the incompetence of those prosecuting. There is plenty of footage out there showing this as an aggressive and anything but "peaceful protest".

Just have to laugh how people go on here when its nothing to do with them. If I came around to my partner's car surrounded by a baying mob they'd be getting flung about the place. But because it's a TD you don't particularly like (shows how much we value our state positions) they should sit there for a few hours while being howled at.

Will some of you get a grip.

Up there with the Guardaí bashing when that woman was flung into a bollard for hood jumping a Ministers car, because you can just do what you want to elected officials yeah?

Whatever about the people holding the positions, which you elected by the way, there is a shocking devaluement and diminishing of state office and elected office positions.

I'd happy join in a "peaceful protest" to sit outside Paul Murphy's house where he cannot get out of his drive for a few hours. Because it's totally cool to just impede someone going about their business, aslong as they are a tax paid TD right?

Amount of stupidity that goes on, justified because it's a TD a person doesn't like. Baffling. No wonder we are in a rut of consistently poor elected governments and TD's when the electorate are busy drowning themselves in their own self righteous dribble.

seamus · 03-07-2017 09:13AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, let's crack a few heads open with batons, do you want tear gas and attack dogs too? Rubber bullets?

Ah yes, the hysteria. Always the way to go.

I don't see any issue with baton charging a threatening mob in order to protect innocent people and get them out of harm's way. Do you?

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 09:13AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Interesting POV.
Gardai have received carte blanche to wade into protesters with batons as a result of a protest where nobody ended up being injured.

Which would happen in most countries, if not various other crowd tactics deployed.

I'd imagine there was some internal investigation and critique within the guards themselves for the how the incident was handled anyway as it was hardly efficent or correct. And if anything shows the issues affecting the Guardaí on the street or on this assignments, that they are being badly affected by public opinion, unable to perform and execute segments of VIP escort and security. The account of Joan Burton and her associate being ferried to numerous cars by a senior Guardaí was laughable to read.

It is a slight sliver of evidence that the tactics being deployed by Murphy and co. are working to some extent, and it's something no one should be happy about as it's a pure regression of social and civil etiquette and genuine issue resolution in a democracy. And at the base of actions like this, what most of those in attendance even fail to grasp, is the people in charge like a Murphy, are absolutely hoping to the maximum there is injury or assault caused on those he or they are spearheading, to further their name in the media and further paint himself and those around him as the victims.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 09:15AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I absolutely love the reaction from people, totally different spectrum because it's a TD they don't particularly like, possibly holding her to blame for their own misfortune.

That the people involved in the case got away without any sanction or ruling is down to the incompetence of those prosecuting. There is plenty of footage out there showing this as an aggressive and anything but "peaceful protest".

Just have to laugh how people go on here when its nothing to do with them. If I came around to my partner's car surrounded by a baying mob they'd be getting flung about the place. But because it's a TD you don't particularly like (shows how much we value our state positions) they should sit there for a few hours while being howled at.

Will some of you get a grip.

Up there with the Guardaí bashing when that woman was flung into a bollard for hood jumping a Ministers car, because you can just do what you want to elected officials yeah?

Whatever about the people holding the positions, which you elected by the way, there is a shocking devaluement and diminishing of state office and elected office positions.

I'd happy join in a "peaceful protest" to sit outside Paul Murphy's house where he cannot get out of his drive for a few hours. Because it's totally cool to just impede someone going about their business, aslong as they are a tax paid TD right?

Amount of stupidity that goes on, justified because it's a TD a person doesn't like. Baffling. No wonder we are in a rut of consistently poor elected governments and TD's when the electorate are busy drowning themselves in their own self righteous dribble.

So you are in one of these 'peaceful' protests and suddenly a few thugs join it and the gardai wade in with batons and riot gear or you end up in a two year hiatus waiting to go to court on bogus charges all the while being vilified in the press.. Happy with that outcome? It that some perfect democracy?

The easiest thing to do here is to find out who messed up, find out was there anyway all this could have been avoided.
Again I contrast it with how other protests where dealt with that used blockade as a method.
It has happened time and again.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 09:17AM

seamus wrote: »

Ah yes, the hysteria. Always the way to go.

I don't see any issue with baton charging a threatening mob in order to protect innocent people and get them out of harm's way. Do you?

What about all the 'abandoned children' Joan was twittering about? :rolleyes:

There would probably have been deaths if the gardai used violence that day. Catch yourself on, it never went to the stage were a baton charge was appropriate, unless we have a police state for some.

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 09:23AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you are in one of these 'peaceful' protests and suddenly a few thugs join it and the gardai wade in with batons and riot gear or you end up in a two year hiatus waiting to go to court on bogus charges all the while being vilified in the press.. Happy with that outcome? It that some perfect democracy?

The easiest thing to do here is to find out who messed up, find out was there anyway all this could have been avoided.
Again I contrast it with how other protests where dealt with that used blockade as a method.
It has happened time and again.

This happens all the time. Frequently. I've seen enough of the water protests first hand to see they have been a happy excuse for local knackers or troublemakers to stroll along and cause a stir.

It's why organisers go to such lengths to strain in advance how protests will be peaceful or "family friendly" (lol) to plant the notion ahead of time any trouble is not caused by them, and typically after the fact, when **** kicks off as it so frequently does, they distance themselves from those involved.

It's a wonderful abjection of ownership and responsibility. But it's somewhat fair enough, I don't expect one person to keep an entire crowd in check, especially people who join in just looking for trouble. But that is just what happens. When you organise a protest about certain issues, in certain areas, for certain things, you are well aware its going to happen, as are the Guards.

Mob mentality then kicks in, where people who had arrived with totally peaceful intentions, are subjected to base instincts and feel more powerful in the crowd whose tensions are rising and then it spills over.

That is why tactics and training exist to deal with crowds. If protests and protesters spotted the trouble makers stirring, and then flung them to the front to the police, mass incident would rarely happen. But this doesn't happen, the crowd becomes protective and then it's all filmed (typically out of context) as the poor old protesters getting a shalackin from the "man".

Personally I think protesting should be a thing of the past. I'm not overly sure what it does anymore, expect causing massive disruption to city infrastructure and normal citizens, but then again maybe that is exactly the purpose of it. Cause a massive disruption to the infrastructure of an area to spring the authorities into action.

There is a very clear path and method for raising issues or concerns through elected TD's. It's not a hard process, its a straight forward process. But obviously protesting causes that much more of a stir and is more attention grabbing.

When "the right" to protest directly conflicts with other rights, it's time to have a think about what's going on and how we as an electorate as airing our grievances.

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 09:26AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What about all the 'abandoned children' Joan was twittering about? :rolleyes:

There would probably have been deaths if the gardai used violence that day. Catch yourself on, it never went to the stage were a baton charge was appropriate, unless we have a police state for some.

Baton charge does not necessarily mean batons are drawn.

From a policing and security point of view, this incident was a severe failing of the Guardaí in the incident, but also in a microcosm the effects of a long and brutal demoralisation of our police on the front lines, whereby they are second guessing or trying alternative methods to obvious situations, for fear of the consequences. That is simply not an effective way of policing.

And to a certain extent I don't blame them. We have such a popularist establishment that will easily toss people to the wolves rather than defend them. So I don't blame Guardaí at that scene particularly for how they handed that situation, but its a sad view from afar to see our police force totally disregarded and respected, state office just totally disrespected and vilified (regardless of the person occupying) and basically a victory for aggressive, prohibitive protesting and basically political targeting.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 09:30AM

TheDoc wrote: »

This happens all the time. Frequently. I've seen enough of the water protests first hand to see they have been a happy excuse for local knackers or troublemakers to stroll along and cause a stir.

It's why organisers go to such lengths to strain in advance how protests will be peaceful or "family friendly" (lol) to plant the notion ahead of time any trouble is not caused by them, and typically after the fact, when **** kicks off as it so frequently does, they distance themselves from those involved.

It's a wonderful abjection of ownership and responsibility. But it's somewhat fair enough, I don't expect one person to keep an entire crowd in check, especially people who join in just looking for trouble. But that is just what happens. When you organise a protest about certain issues, in certain areas, for certain things, you are well aware its going to happen, as are the Guards.

Mob mentality then kicks in, where people who had arrived with totally peaceful intentions, are subjected to base instincts and feel more powerful in the crowd whose tensions are rising and then it spills over.

That is why tactics and training exist to deal with crowds. If protests and protesters spotted the trouble makers stirring, and then flung them to the front to the police, mass incident would rarely happen. But this doesn't happen, the crowd becomes protective and then it's all filmed (typically out of context) as the poor old protesters getting a shalackin from the "man".

Personally I think protesting should be a thing of the past. I'm not overly sure what it does anymore, expect causing massive disruption to city infrastructure and normal citizens, but then again maybe that is exactly the purpose of it. Cause a massive disruption to the infrastructure of an area to spring the authorities into action.

There is a very clear path and method for raising issues or concerns through elected TD's. It's not a hard process, its a straight forward process. But obviously protesting causes that much more of a stir and is more attention grabbing.

When "the right" to protest directly conflicts with other rights, it's time to have a think about what's going on and how we as an electorate as airing our grievances.

So you don't believe in the right to protest. At least you are honest about it.

The rest of your post is just looking down your nose at a huge community (including some thugs and violent people) who were pushed on to the streets because of crippling austerity measures taken by recent governments.

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 09:50AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you don't believe in the right to protest. At least you are honest about it.

The rest of your post is just looking down your nose at a huge community (including some thugs and violent people) who were pushed on to the streets because of crippling austerity measures taken by recent governments.

I appreciate the history and the purpose of protesting, but I don't see it as the collective bargaining and show of solidarity it was in times gone by, it looks to be in modern use a tool of disruption and ransom against the relevant authority, where there is as much disruption caused as possible.

Fully appreciate there are some that are perfectly fine and done in what I would consider the "correct way" but there was so many instances during the Water Protest ones where you could posts and suggestions happening where it seemed to be going for maximum impact, trying to organise around times where local Guarda stations were known to be running skeleton staff etc.

I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, I'm perfectly in line with the affects of the recession and the stress and pressure it caused. But I haven't compromised my principles or my beliefs on what society should look like and operate like in my opinion and how I want my country to be run economically.

There is situations, circumstances and decisions made by the state that boil my piss, but protesting probably doesn't appear to be a resolution for me. Granted I've started to lose interest and to be honest hope in terms of impact or change, as I find myself just drown out by the majority around me. And I respect everyones right to vote, and the opinion they form.

My opinion and thoughts could well be shaped by growing up in an area whereby the latest ring leader from the left seemed to garnish the majority support, where I consistently felt they were basically charlatans, unable and unpressured to enforce any effective change, but able to whip people into a storm for where to point their finger and blame someone else, and operate a campaign based no how it's not "your fault, it's the fault of those pesky high earners".

Don't know if it's an irish thing or a human thing, but we absolutely love when it appears someone is showing us how none of it is our fault, instead someone else we can blame. It's probably a human thing, easier to blame someone else than look at ourselves and admit "you know what , I ****ed that up"

So I'd resent being called a snob or saying I look down my nose at a large group of people. But yeah, maybe I don't have time for people who are just looking for someone else to blame and the easy way out, or the easy excuse, as opposed to grinding it out like the rest of us. Like whatever happened with Fianna Fail and their inability to have real insight on the situation, twisted by banking executives covering up mistakes and a bad situation until it was too late, from a regulatory body that totally failed in it's mandate, during a global economic recession and crash. There is a certain point where we as a people who were effected or took knocks, need to just get up and start motoring again, because it won't go back the way it was, no one is giving back what we lost. Not Paul Murphy, not Sinn Feinn, not Leo Varadker, no one.

Dyr · 03-07-2017 09:53AM

seamus wrote: »

Ah yes, the hysteria. Always the way to go.

I don't see any issue with baton charging a threatening mob in order to protect innocent people and get them out of harm's way. Do you?

It sounds alright but you'd probably need to find a scenario with a mob, innocent people and some harm first.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 09:57AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I appreciate the history and the purpose of protesting, but I don't see it as the collective bargaining and show of solidarity it was in times gone by, it looks to be in modern use a tool of disruption and ransom against the relevant authority, where there is as much disruption caused as possible.

Fully appreciate there are some that are perfectly fine and done in what I would consider the "correct way" but there was so many instances during the Water Protest ones where you could posts and suggestions happening where it seemed to be going for maximum impact, trying to organise around times where local Guarda stations were known to be running skeleton staff etc.

I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, I'm perfectly in line with the affects of the recession and the stress and pressure it caused. But I haven't compromised my principles or my beliefs on what society should look like and operate like in my opinion and how I want my country to be run economically.

There is situations, circumstances and decisions made by the state that boil my piss, but protesting probably doesn't appear to be a resolution for me. Granted I've started to lose interest and to be honest hope in terms of impact or change, as I find myself just drown out by the majority around me. And I respect everyones right to vote, and the opinion they form.

My opinion and thoughts could well be shaped by growing up in an area whereby the latest ring leader from the left seemed to garnish the majority support, where I consistently felt they were basically charlatans, unable and unpressured to enforce any effective change, but able to whip people into a storm for where to point their finger and blame someone else, and operate a campaign based no how it's not "your fault, it's the fault of those pesky high earners".

Don't know if it's an irish thing or a human thing, but we absolutely love when it appears someone is showing us how none of it is our fault, instead someone else we can blame. It's probably a human thing, easier to blame someone else than look at ourselves and admit "you know what , I ****ed that up"

I have no idea what you are getting at here. Are you saying that the community who protested at the final nail in the coffin that was Water Charges was to blame for the fact that Water Charges had to be introduced and should have sat back and taken it?

*For the record here, I believe in some form of WC, I just thought it was obscene for it to be introduced when it was, it was indeed the final nail in the coffin for a huge community who had been affected the most by austerity. What happened over them was the fault of those who decided to introduce them at that time.

LuckyLloyd · 03-07-2017 09:58AM

TheDoc wrote: »

There is situations, circumstances and decisions made by the state that boil my piss, but protesting probably doesn't appear to be a resolution for me. Granted I've started to lose interest and to be honest hope in terms of impact or change, as I find myself just drown out by the majority around me. And I respect everyones right to vote, and the opinion they form.

Well just because you've lost any hope around effecting change doesn't mean the rest of society has. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Water Charge protests, the reality is that they effectively forced an indefinite suspension of the charging and will force any future implementation to be far more circumspect and inclusive.

That demonstrates that protesting works, even if you feel it's a wasted exercise.

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 10:11AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no idea what you are getting at here. Are you saying that the community who protested at the final nail in the coffin that was Water Charges was to blame for the fact that Water Charges had to be introduced and should have sat back and taken it?

*For the record here, I believe in some form of WC, I just thought it was obscene for it to be introduced when it was, it was indeed the final nail in the coffin for a huge community who had been affected the most by austerity. What happened over them was the fault of those who decided to introduce them at that time.

There is a clear message at the heart of a number of independent TD's, and groupings, that the effects of the recession, were totally ab-solvent of the individual, and instead the collective fault of Fianna Fail and banking executives, which is simply not true.

While obvious a factor in overall scheme of things, a number of TD's and groupings have whipped people into a frenzy that nothing was there fault. When it's simply not true.

Obviously these are cases within the overall scheme, and I'm sure there are situations where people or families or whatever who feel rough in the recession, the entire fault lay out of their control. I know I felt like that for a while, then I did look inward and looking back, and feel maybe I was brash in entering the rental market that was clearly about to spiral out of control. But I felt I was "owed" or "had a right" to live with my girlfriend and begin living a life together. Got through it in the end and have come out the other side, but decimated my savings and only know in the last 4 months can I get back to saving for a mortgage.

And sure, I should live in a country whereby I can as a functioning employed adult earning decent money, be able to get a place of my own. And the fault that it went to **** does partially lie with the Government, but that still doesn't absolve me of the choice I made.

And that is a crux to my point, and the segment you have highlighted. We are to sit here and feel teary eyed for numerous families or individuals or business' who got slaughtered in the recession, for poor choices they made, but at a point were caused by "someone else". But we just look over the poor choices made by individuals. The expectations people have of what they "should" have or are entitled to in their life, as opposed to what is feasible in the circumstance.

Too many people havn't bit their lip and made the sacrifice or tailored their situation to the circumstance at hand. So forgive me for getting a bit sick and tired of hearing about people bang on about the hard times and how they had a rough ride, when they really barely made a sacrifice, instead clinging onto the expectation of a different circumstance.

TheDoc · 03-07-2017 10:20AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well just because you've lost any hope around effecting change doesn't mean the rest of society has. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Water Charge protests, the reality is that they effectively forced an indefinite suspension of the charging and will force any future implementation to be far more circumspect and inclusive.

That demonstrates that protesting works, even if you feel it's a wasted exercise.

And set precedent that for any charge to be shared by all, will be met with vigorous,aggressive protesting until the government of the day are forced to recede.

The implementation of IW had some clear issues, some obvious issues. Issues that were being raised perfectly in factually based figures by numerous TD's in the proper forum. Stephen Donnelly sticks out for me in this time as someone who worked out how the implementation was effectively charging people for the cost of charging people water.

Refuse charges are up next. Are we to go at it again?

And least not forget at the source of a lot of grievance with Irish Water, and the Water charges, was that it was one of the first measures of taxation/charge that was not subject to exclusion or assistance for social welfare/lower income employees. Everyone was subject, and everyone would pay their way.

I know it put my nose out of joint, that many protests around where I lived at the time, or in the surrounding areas, were made up of social welfare recipients. I wouldn't tarnish everyone with the same brush obviously, I've had my time on welfare in the past, but everyone knows the scroungers and the lifetime dolers, and to see them preaching and protesting was as big a two fingers to someone like me as I can get. And while there isn't water charges there now, we are still paying for the multitude of contracts agreed to for that setup. Oh and guess who is paying, and guess who isn't.

I'd fear it set a precedent to vigorously oppose any introduced charge with an aim to improve infrastructure or introduce a measure paid for by everyone. It was somehow ironic seeing perpetrators of socialist ideas viciously campaigning and protesting against a core philosophy of socialism, that while everyone should be afforded equal and the same opportunities, everyone should inclusively contribute towards it.

I'm still unsure if it was the protests, or the just massive sway in electorate support on the measure that really caused the step back, but there is likely no debate the relentless protesting had a massive influence. And as you say rightly or wrongly, I just personally found the general implementation and methods incorrect and if anything extremely worrying. Maybe there was genuine peaceful protests and well managed and respectful protests that took place, but it definitely wasn't the case where I was living at the time.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 10:22AM

TheDoc wrote: »

There is a clear message at the heart of a number of independent TD's, and groupings, that the effects of the recession, were totally ab-solvent of the individual, and instead the collective fault of Fianna Fail and banking executives, which is simply not true.

While obvious a factor in overall scheme of things, a number of TD's and groupings have whipped people into a frenzy that nothing was there fault. When it's simply not true.

Obviously these are cases within the overall scheme, and I'm sure there are situations where people or families or whatever who feel rough in the recession, the entire fault lay out of their control. I know I felt like that for a while, then I did look inward and looking back, and feel maybe I was brash in entering the rental market that was clearly about to spiral out of control. But I felt I was "owed" or "had a right" to live with my girlfriend and begin living a life together. Got through it in the end and have come out the other side, but decimated my savings and only know in the last 4 months can I get back to saving for a mortgage.

And sure, I should live in a country whereby I can as a functioning employed adult earning decent money, be able to get a place of my own. And the fault that it went to **** does partially lie with the Government, but that still doesn't absolve me of the choice I made.

And that is a crux to my point, and the segment you have highlighted. We are to sit here and feel teary eyed for numerous families or individuals or business' who got slaughtered in the recession, for poor choices they made, but at a point were caused by "someone else". But we just look over the poor choices made by individuals. The expectations people have of what they "should" have or are entitled to in their life, as opposed to what is feasible in the circumstance.

Too many people havn't bit their lip and made the sacrifice or tailored their situation to the circumstance at hand. So forgive me for getting a bit sick and tired of hearing about people bang on about the hard times and how they had a rough ride, when they really barely made a sacrifice, instead clinging onto the expectation of a different circumstance.

Sorry I stopped reading after realising that you think 'individuals' in Jobstown have responsibility for what happened in this country. That they should have just taken the austerity and said nothing, even when it looked like the austerity was not going to stop.

BillyBobBS · 03-07-2017 10:27AM

Yeah looks like bin charges will be next and hopefully that is followed by a campaign to abolish the TV/Broadcasting charge. It's an absolute embarrassment that we pay people the ilk of Tubs and Duffy obscene amounts of money for such low quality "entertainment". Let RTE stand or fall by itself and stop threatening people with jail. It's 2017 ffs.

seamus · 03-07-2017 10:30AM

Bambi wrote: »

It sounds alright but you'd probably need to find a scenario with a mob, innocent people and some harm first.

Thankfully we have a perfect example in the unruly mob that Paul Murphy curated last year.

The head of An Cosan who was there that day described how she had been spat on, had people screaming abuse at her, hands clawing at them (her necklace had been grabbed and broken) while the Gardai shielded them out of the centre. Videos from the day show all of the abuse that was going on.

Anyone who pretends that this was a peaceful, respectful demonstration is wilfully ignoring the facts.

The only people there that day were scumbags and troublemakers.

Who else would hold a protest at the opening of a charity working for the betterment of the local community? Someone who respected the ideals of peaceful demonstration certainly wouldn't.

The intention that day was to intimidate the Tanaiste, nothing more. That's not what a protest is.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2017 10:36AM

seamus wrote: »

Thankfully we have a perfect example in the unruly mob that Paul Murphy curated last year.

The head of An Cosan who was there that day described how she had been spat on, had people screaming abuse at her, hands clawing at them (her necklace had been grabbed and broken) while the Gardai shielded them out of the centre. Videos from the day show all of the abuse that was going on.

Anyone who pretends that this was a peaceful, respectful demonstration is wilfully ignoring the facts.

The only people there that day were scumbags and troublemakers.

Who else would hold a protest at the opening of a charity working for the betterment of the local community? Someone who respected the ideals of peaceful demonstration certainly wouldn't.

The intention that day was to intimidate the Tanaiste, nothing more. That's not what a protest is.

Nobody is in denial about what happened. And violence has broken out at many protests and violence has been used to quell peaceful protest too.

The fact here is, if you read the evidence presented and read the judge's comments, is that the men in the dock were not involved in any of that.

VinLieger · 03-07-2017 10:46AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is in denial about what happened. And violence has broken out at many protests and violence has been used to quell peaceful protest too.

The fact here is, if you read the evidence presented and read the judge's comments, is that the men in the dock were not involved in any of that.

No all the evidence did was find they did not falsely imprison burton.

However these men were also in charge of organising the protest and therefore ultimately responsible for the actions by the people protesting and it was by no definition of the words a peaceful protest.

gctest50 · 03-07-2017 10:55AM

Easy to say it now but anyway

- what the Gardaí should have done was get the car out of there and kettle in the crowd for a few hours

Jobstown 6 Not Guilty

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