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Irish under-25 team.

  • 30-06-2017 8:52am
    #1
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭


    Born in 1992 or later

    1. Peter Dooley(1994/Leinster)
    2. Niall Scannell(1992/Munster)
    3. Tadhg Furlong(1992/Leinster)
    4. James Ryan(1996/Leinster)
    5. Iain Henderson(1992/Ulster)
    6. Dan Leavy(1994/Leinster)
    7. Josh Van Der Flier(1993/Leinster)
    8. Jack Conan(1992/Leinster)
    9. Luke McGrath(1993/Leinster)
    10. Paddy Jackson(1992/Ulster)
    11. Rory O'Loughlin(1994/Leinster)
    12. Robbie Henshaw(1993/Leinster)
    13. Garry Ringrose(1995/Leinster)
    14. Adam Byrne(1994/Leinster)
    15. Jacob Stockdale(1996/Ulster)
    16. Adam McBurney(1996/Ulster)
    17. Andrew Porter(1996/Leinster)
    18. Ross Kane(1994/Ulster)
    19. Kieran Treadwell(1995/Ulster)
    20. Jack O'Donoghue(1994/Munster)
    21. Kieran Marmion(1992/Connacht)
    22. Joey Carbery(1995/Leinster)
    23. Chris Farrell(1993/Munster)


«1

Comments

  • #2
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    What will people get more upset about here. Marmion behind McGrath or Treadwell behind Ryan?


  • #3
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭fbse90


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What will people get more upset about here. Marmion behind McGrath or Treadwell behind Ryan?

    May be controversial now, won't be by the end of next season.


  • #4
    KBurke85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭KBurke85


    When and where will these under 25 Internationals be played? haha


  • #5
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I fail to see the point of this thread.
    Why pick u25 as the arbitrary number?


  • #6
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I think this is ageist thread and should be shut down:P:P:P:P


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  • #7
    DGRulz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭DGRulz


    As someone born in 1991, this list depresses me slightly.


  • #8
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭fbse90


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I fail to see the point of this thread.
    Why pick u25 as the arbitrary number?

    I think it's an interesting exercise, in identifying weak/strong positions in the country and talent coming through.

    For instance Hooker and LH Prop looks somewhat weak.


  • #9
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I think it does show the strength in Leinster compared to rest of provinces. I am Leinster supporter but I think the draft system will need to be brought in. I heard Triggs discussing it recently(I think it was triggs). He was saying the big advantage in NZ was the draft system and younger players moving teams to get time on pitch

    We need to do the same or we will start to miss talent.

    Or Leinster set up feeder club in Southern Hemp where they can send players for a few seasons to get experience and then come back to win the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th star on jersey :-)


  • #10
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭fbse90


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I think it does show the strength in Leinster compared to rest of provinces. I am Leinster supporter but I think the draft system will need to be brought in. I heard Triggs discussing it recently(I think it was triggs). He was saying the big advantage in NZ was the draft system and younger players moving teams to get time on pitch

    We need to do the same or we will start to miss talent.

    Or Leinster set up feeder club in Southern Hemp where they can send players for a few seasons to get experience and then come back to win the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th star on jersey :-)

    Not sure how any leinster fan can be in favour of weakening leinster to the benefit of the other provinces.

    If a draft comes in, then it kills one of the strongest parts of provincial rugby, loyalty to ones province.

    If a player is good enough, he won't be missed.


  • #11
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    fbse90 wrote: »
    Not sure how any leinster fan can be in favour of weakening leinster to the benefit of the other provinces.

    If a draft comes in, then it kills one of the strongest parts of provincial rugby, loyalty to ones province.

    The end goal for all the provinces should be to provide players for Ireland....

    If you look at the back row for Leinster it is unreal the talent available to them. Someone is going to have to move and I would prefer to see them stay in Ireland than move to France/England which will weaken the options for Ireland.

    Lets put it this ways....I cannot see how any Leinster fan would object to a player moving for the good of his career and the good of Ireland

    Bit of idiotic statement to question someone loyalty to there province because they would prefer to see players make a career and help Ireland in the meantime.....


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  • #12
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭fbse90


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    The end goal for all the provinces should be to provide players for Ireland....

    If you look at the back row for Leinster it is unreal the talent available to them. Someone is going to have to move and I would prefer to see them stay in Ireland than move to France/England which will weaken the options for Ireland.

    Lets put it this ways....I cannot see how any Leinster fan would object to a player moving for the good of his career and the good of Ireland

    Bit of idiotic statement to question someone loyalty to there province because they would prefer to see players make a career and help Ireland in the meantime.....

    I don't object to a player wanting to move for the good of his career, forcing a player to move is another question, which a draft does. The backrows at leinster have decided for now that they'd prefer to play for Leinster than another province who are you or anyone else to say they shouldn't be allowed do so?

    If a player would rather move abroad than play for another province, who are you to say he shouldn't?

    If a player wishes to play for his home province, he should be allowed, pretty simple... forcing players to move provinces will not work.

    the provinces do provide players to ireland, leinster more than any other and leinster already provide players to the other provinces, how much weaker do you want to make leinster rugby?


  • #13
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    fbse90 wrote: »
    I don't object to a player wanting to move for the good of his career, forcing a player to move is another question, which a draft does. The backrows at leinster have decided for now that they'd prefer to play for Leinster than another province who are you or anyone else to say they shouldn't be allowed do so?

    If a player would rather move abroad than play for another province, who are you to say he shouldn't?

    If a player wishes to play for his home province, he should be allowed, pretty simple... forcing players to move provinces will not work.

    the provinces do provide players to ireland, leinster more than any other and leinster already provide players to the other provinces, how much weaker do you want to make leinster rugby?

    How can moving a player getting no game time with Leinster to another province weaken Leinster?

    So you would prefer to see multiple back row players sitting on bench or in stands than moving to another team and getting a shot at Ireland team?

    It should be the goal of every province to make sure all talent stays in Ireland. What good is a player in France/England to anyone? they get bashed up and then discarded.

    Also who said a player would be forced?


  • #14
    fbse90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭fbse90


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    How can moving a player getting no game time with Leinster to another province weaken Leinster?

    So you would prefer to see multiple back row players sitting on bench or in stands than moving to another team and getting a shot at Ireland team?

    It should be the goal of every province to make sure all talent stays in Ireland. What good is a player in France/England to anyone? they get bashed up and then discarded.

    Also who said a player would be forced?

    A draft forces a player to play for one team.

    If a player wishes to stay at leinster and compete for gametime, it's his decision. That's what players have decided to do.

    If a player would rather move abroad than play for another province, who are you to say he shouldn't?

    Forcing players to move province via a draft is an awful idea and should never happen.


  • #15
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I very much dislike the idea of a draft type system though I do think moves between provinces should be encouraged.

    It's not exactly unheard of in the past for players to be given a choice of another province or abroad and they choose abroad.


  • #16
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,209 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    fbse90 wrote: »
    May be controversial now, won't be by the end of next season.

    Not sure what you're basing that on. McGrath had a decent season but not a lot more than that, can't think of a really good performance in a big game, a good cameo against England aside. In games where his pack didn't give him an armchair ride, he struggled a bit, particularly the two pool games away in France.

    Marmion was excellent against Australia (albeit out of position) and England, solid against Wales and stood out for Connacht against Wasps and Toulouse even when his pack were under pressure, i.e. Wasps away.

    McGrath will need to make substantial improvements to overtake Marmion.


  • #17
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,172 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Not sure what you're basing that on. McGrath had a decent season but not a lot more than that, can't think of a really good performance in a big game, a good cameo against England aside. In games where his pack didn't give him an armchair ride, he struggled a bit, particularly the two pool games away in France.

    As president of the "Luke McGrath needs to improve club", I have been very quiet this season with good reason. The bloke was more than decent. He was Leinster player of the year and completely deserved.

    If you need any more confirmation of how important he has become to Leinster, his departure from the Scarlets game was probably the single biggest influence on Leinster's performance.

    I think you're being extremly harsh on him. I'd still have Marmion ahead of him but the gap has significantly narrowed which is due to McGrath's improvement and not a sleight against Marmion's showings.


  • #18
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    How can moving a player getting no game time with Leinster to another province weaken Leinster?

    Who are we talking about here? Gametime was spread quite well between a lot of backrows at Leinster last season to the point even a few academy players got gametime.


  • #19
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    DGRulz wrote: »
    As someone born in 1991, this list depresses me slightly.

    Just go away...


  • #20
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,209 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Buer wrote: »
    As president of the "Luke McGrath needs to improve club", I have been very quiet this season with good reason. The bloke was more than decent. He was Leinster player of the year and completely deserved.

    If you need any more confirmation of how important he has become to Leinster, his departure from the Scarlets game was probably the single biggest influence on Leinster's performance.

    I think you're being extremly harsh on him. I'd still have Marmion ahead of him but the gap has significantly narrowed which is due to McGrath's improvement and not a sleight against Marmion's showings.

    I am factoring in the packs they were behind, for most games this season McGrath was behind a dominant pack whilst Marmion was behind a struggling pack.

    Leinsters four toughest challenges were the two pool games away in France, Clermont and Scarlets. McGrath struggled in the two pool games, was alright against Clermont and came off injured against Scarlets.

    I don't think anyone could say he's proven himself against top level opposition in the same manner Marmion has.

    It's McGraths first season basically though so no doubt he will improve but at the moment there is a fairly significant gap between himself and Marmion.


  • #21
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,172 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    It's McGraths first season basically though so no doubt he will improve but at the moment there is a fairly significant gap between himself and Marmion.

    We'll have to agree to disagree and I don't think it's viewed like that in the Irish set up either.

    Marmion certainly in front but if there was a fairly significant gap, there's not a hope that McGrath would have been brought on for the last 15 minutes of a massive game against England with the score at 13-9. There's a significant gap between Murray and Marmion, for example. Not a hope Murray would have been taken off in that game until the dying minutes, if at all.

    Or in the summer tour where all the established second string players (Ryan, Toner, Healy, Earls) started against USA and the first Japan test aside from Marmion and McGrath who rotated.

    All indications are that the order is:

    Conor Murray
    >Kieran Marmion->Luke McGrath


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  • #22
    randomname2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    Buer wrote: »

    Or in the summer tour where all the established second string players (Ryan, Toner, Healy, Earls) started against USA and the first Japan test aside from Marmion and McGrath who rotated.

    All indications are that the order is:

    Conor Murray
    >Kieran Marmion->Luke McGrath

    I didn't realise Toner was relegated to 2nd string 2nd row.


  • #23
    padser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    ClanofLams wrote: »

    Leinsters four toughest challenges were the two pool games away in France, Clermont and Scarlets. McGrath struggled in the two pool games, was alright against Clermont and came off injured against Scarlets.
    .

    The point you are making boils down to "in the four matches his team played badly, he played badly in two of them"

    Pretty much by definition most players on a team play badly when a team plays badly....and in this case you're conceding that it was only the case half the time for McGrath.

    I'm not commenting on the overall merits of McGrath v Marmion, but I don't think that particular argument says much (negatively) about McGrath.


  • #24
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,209 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    padser wrote: »
    The point you are making boils down to "in the four matches his team played badly, he played badly in two of them"

    Pretty much by definition most players on a team play badly when a team plays badly....and in this case you're conceding that it was only the case half the time for McGrath.

    I'm not commenting on the overall merits of McGrath v Marmion, but I don't think that particular argument says much (negatively) about McGrath.

    He made individual errors in those games. Regardless the point I'm making is that no-one can point to a big game he started and performed well in. Whereas with Marmion there is a lot of games (pro 12 playoffs, European cup, international,etc)

    As I previously said though, its McGraths first season so no doubt he will improve. But at the moment, there is a significant gap. Murray is clearly no.1. Marmion is clearly no.2


  • #25
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Regardless the point I'm making is that no-one can point to a big game he started and performed well in.

    No-one you say. What a load of crap. You've narrowed your definition of 'big game' to precisely suit your argument and even then you're seriously reaching.


  • #26
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,209 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    No-one you say. What a load of crap. You've narrowed your definition of 'big game' to precisely suit your argument and even then you're seriously reaching.

    If you want to name one, I'm all ears.


  • #27
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Wait what, are my eyes decieving me? Someone is saying Luke McGrath has never played well in a European game?


  • #28
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,209 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Wait what, are my eyes decieving me? Someone is saying Luke McGrath has never played well in a European game?

    Nope. Just saying he hasn't in big games. He hasn't had a lot of opportunities to do so, to be fair. Not sure what the issue is, it's the same point many posters made in the past about Tiernan O'Halloran,etc


  • #29
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Nope. Just saying he hasn't in big games. He hasn't had a lot of opportunities to do so, to be fair. Not sure what the issue is, it's the same point many posters made in the past about Tiernan O'Halloran,etc

    Luke McGrath had some key games for Leinster last season. And was voted the players' player of the year because of that.


  • #30
    Erik Shin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 ✭✭✭Erik Shin


    DGRulz wrote: »
    As someone born in 1991, this list depresses me slightly.

    As someone who did his leaving cert the year before that , think how I feel !!!


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  • #31
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    The QF against Wasps must have never happened. Nor any of the other European games he played or the game in Lansdowne against Munster for example.

    Oh, they're not big games, because reasons. Ok.


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