2017 UK General Election - 8th June

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:40PM

awec wrote: »

Oh please, is this the level to which we've stooped now? Jeremy Corbyn, the great saviour of democracy because... he's a leftie?

The best chance for democracy because he has a damn sight more integrity than any of the other candidates and will not be bought by oligarchs.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:42PM

Jayop wrote: »

The only possible way they'll be in government would be if by some miracle there could be a lab, lib Dem, snp coalition.

Perhaps but progressives should vote labour instead. A vote for libs might well help bolster Tory rule as in the last time they got a sniff of power.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:46PM

Calina wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn cannot save democracy in the UK. The gaps are not his to fill. He cannot do anything about the general level of media literacy or, indeed, the delivery of media to the UK. He does not have a message which resonates with the population as a whole.

The whole point of this is that he needs to get elected. For anyone to make any serious cultural changes in the UK, they have to attain power.

He has demonstrated no understanding of this need. He has demonstrated no interest in winning the hearts and minds of the electorate at large. He appears to me to be content to continue to lead a small minority of the UK electorate but not the country as a whole.

There is no point in making noise about aspiring to save democracy if you cannot move your sorry ass to win elections. Support for the Labour Party amongst the electorate at large has been falling, and in light of Corbyn's lukewarm support for remaining in the EU, it is clear he is at odds with a lot of his core electorate. 67% of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU. He has whipped the PLP into supporting the Article 50 bill without getting any serious concessions on exit negotiations.

My expectation for this election is that the Labour Party will lose a load of seats to the Tories, the Tories will lose a bunch of seats to the Lib Dems and really the only question is which members of her party is May hoping to lose with this election. As far as I can see, this election is for the reconfiguration of Tory representation in Westminster, and potentially even in the Cabinet. I mean she's not going to have to fire Boris Johnson if he somehow loses his seat.

A populist message to resonate with the voters ala Trump? Or others appealing to baser sentiments?

Repeated polls show strong support for his policies. It is the media blitzkrieg that is preventing this message from reaching voters.

A principled candidate like Corbyn can never win unless voters stand up to media barons. Those of us better informed are duty bound to make the argument.

Apologies for short reply. Severe RSI limits typing.

Calina · 18-04-2017 05:48PM

Memnoch wrote: »

A populist message to resonate with the voters ala Trump? Or others appealing to baser sentiments?

Repeated polls show strong support for his policies. It is the media blitzkrieg that is preventing this message from reaching voters.

A principled candidate like Corbyn can never win unless voters stand up to media barons. Those of us better informed are duty bound to make the argument.

But not for him. And he, and you, are not taking ownership - far too easy to blame the press.

Here's a clue. The press was not what you would call supportive of the populist Trump. He still won because he accessed the voters via different channels. You might want to look for another excuse.

BTW - I don't think Corbyn is all that principled to be honest with you. If he was, he'd have resigned as leader of the Labour Party by now. Instead, he is slowly destroying it.

Sam Russell · 18-04-2017 05:55PM

Calina wrote: »

But not for him. And he, and you, are not taking ownership - far too easy to blame the press.

Here's a clue. The press was not what you would call supportive of the populist Trump. He still won because he accessed the voters via different channels. You might want to look for another excuse.

BTW - I don't think Corbyn is all that principled to be honest with you. If he was, he'd have resigned as leader of the Labour Party by now. Instead, he is slowly destroying it.

Well, he is principled, but maybe misguided. Now I would not be a supporter, and I live in Dublin so do not have a vote, but he has retained his core ideals for a very long time.

Compared to May, who only last week was declaring that she would not go for a snap election, he has retained his left views and supported the less well off and attacked Tory attempts to deprive the deprived of what little they have in the way of benefits, like the cuts in disability allowance - I mean, how low can you go to cut welfare for the disabled?

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:57PM

Calina wrote: »

But not for him. And he, and you, are not taking ownership - far too easy to blame the press.

Here's a clue. The press was not what you would call supportive of the populist Trump. He still won because he accessed the voters via different channels. You might want to look for another excuse.

BTW - I don't think Corbyn is all that principled to be honest with you. If he was, he'd have resigned as leader of the Labour Party by now. Instead, he is slowly destroying it.

The party was destroyed as a vehicle for democracy long before Corbyn. He is the best chance to save it.

People like his policies but don't support him because of the relentless attacks by a corrupt media and political establishment. Hence why we must speak out for him. People voting against policies they agree with and espoused by a decent principled man. This is the extent of the corruption of democracy in the UK.

Trump won through spreading lies, fear and ignorance not a path open to Corbyn. He also had media support - a lot more than Corbyn.

Calina · 18-04-2017 06:01PM

Memnoch wrote: »

The party was destroyed as a vehicle for democracy long before Corbyn. He is the best chance to save it.

People like his policies but don't support him because of the relentless attacks by a corrupt media and political establishment. Hence why we must speak out for him. People voting against policies they agree with and espoused by a decent principled man. This is the extent of the corruption of democracy in the UK.

Trump won through spreading lies, fear and ignorance not a path open to Corbyn. He also had media support - a lot more than Corbyn.

Here's the question.

Do you want the Labour Party to win an election at some point in the future or not? If you do, then start dealing with the reality that while people may like some of his policies, they don't like him and are not voting for him and only six year olds sit down and go "not fair, nasty media". Either the Labour Party wants to fix this mess in which case they will move him from leadership and get someone they can sell - this does not mean his policies have to be cast adrift.

As long as you decide to hold on to him, you will fix nothing and really, all you are demonstrating is that the Labour Party is so lacking in the principle of fixing the country's democratic deficit that they will sit on the sidelines and not take the hard decisions which include replacing Jeremy Corbyn as leader.

But the fact remains, he is not the only answer to the UK's problems, or even any answer. The UK electorate are making it abundantly clear that they see him as a problem and not a solution. This is something you and Corbyn's supporters will eventually have to wake up to and realise.

awec · 18-04-2017 06:05PM

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awec · 18-04-2017 06:05PM

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devnull · 18-04-2017 06:22PM

What annoys me is the hard left of the Labour Party coming out with Rhetoric like "Red Tory" and "Conservative Light" They're claiming that would be bad for the country, whilst allowing a much more extreme right wing party to implement policies with no credible opposition.

They would rather have a true right wing government in power and sit on the sidelines as a far left protesting but not getting power, rather than softening their left wing stance and getting into power on a center left basis. They say they are not going to go against their principles, but carrying on the same way means they get a party with an even more right wing ideology than they would get if they softened theirs.

They cannot stand up and say they are looking after normal working people, because the action of Corbyn and Momentum and other groups are actually doing them more harm than good because they're allowing the Tory party to become more and more right wing in the absence of any proper challenge.

Realistically if Corbyn doesn't go after the next general election I would hope that the Labour Party is split and those who are closer to the center would join the Lib Dems and Corbyn is left to govern on whatever is left, it is by far in the best interests of the country as people are being crippled by cuts because of the lack of effective opposition.

Essentially Corbyn is allowing May to have more and more power by putting himself before the country, if he doesn't go I dread to think what will happen in the UK. I could never vote for him and when I lived in the UK I always voted Labour, I don't particuarly like the Lib Dems a huge amount, but as a centerist voter, they are the only choice open to me.

ZeitgeistGlee · 18-04-2017 07:02PM

Corbyn's a lame duck at this point and pretty much a vehicle to ensure a safe Tory majority. I don't see what at all is principled or admirable about a man so desperately clawing on that he ensures those he professes to oppose are able to enact their will with no effective opposition.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 07:07PM

catbear wrote: »

This is tedium.

Mod: Please report posts you find objectionable.

Memnoch, you are soapboxing. I'm going to have to ask that you stop as you are just repeating the same soundbites ad nauseam.

dubal · 18-04-2017 07:09PM

Memnoch wrote: »

The party was destroyed as a vehicle for democracy long before Corbyn. He is the best chance to save it.

People like his policies but don't support him because of the relentless attacks by a corrupt media and political establishment. Hence why we must speak out for him. People voting against policies they agree with and espoused by a decent principled man. This is the extent of the corruption of democracy in the UK.

Trump won through spreading lies, fear and ignorance not a path open to Corbyn. He also had media support - a lot more than Corbyn.

Is there a point to being principled in a way that you will never have to live by those principles by being unelectable?

FTA69 · 18-04-2017 07:47PM

It's easy to blame Corbyn for all of Labour's woes but to do so is to ignore the wider fact that Labour is facing a deep existential crisis that is afflicting other centrist and social democratic parties to a greater or lesser extent across the developed world. While people can rightly point to the fact that Corbyn isn't popular (although it's unfair to deny media and establishment bias in this happening - opinions are shaped by powerful forces), I doubt that simply replacing him is going to fix the predicament Labour is in.

Scotland was long gone before Corbyn was elected as leader, people there are sick of austerity, sick of being taken for granted and have found a new political vehicle. I'd say this is irreversible.

Working class support has been steadily declining for Labour for quite some time. In places like Sheffield, Grays, Grimsby et al, working class people are thoroughly disillusioned with the political system as a whole. They see politics as the preserve of an establishment that is thoroughly dishonest, lacking in integrity and detached from their needs and beliefs. They are also on the receiving end of falling wages, decades of deindustrialisation and declining public services. For years upon years, Labour was culpable in that system and has lost huge political capital as a result. On top of that, youth alienation from politics is extremely prevalent depriving Labour of a traditional support base for the left.

However, Labour are also supported by more urbane middle class people and professionals with liberal beliefs - people who were passionately Remain for instance; something entirely at odds with the working class Labour vote who probably voted to Leave. In other words, Labour is holding together two quite different demographics who disagree on stuff like Brexit and immigration.

It's a hard ask for anyone really.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 08:00PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It's easy to blame Corbyn for all of Labour's woes but to do so is to ignore the wider fact that Labour is facing a deep existential crisis that is afflicting other centrist and social democratic parties to a greater or lesser extent across the developed world. While people can rightly point to the fact that Corbyn isn't popular (although it's unfair to deny media and establishment bias in this happening - opinions are shaped by powerful forces), I doubt that simply replacing him is going to fix the predicament Labour is in.

Yeah, the media hates him but you can't pin the blame entirely on them. Younger people voted overwhelmingly to remain (1) while he tried to frustrate the Labour In campaign every chance he got (2, 3). The Tories started winning again when they moved to the centre ground. Labour has decided to do the opposite, setting them back God knows how many years. I won't be voting for them as long as Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne remain. I'd rather the Tories to be honest.

FTA69 wrote: »

Working class support has been steadily declining for Labour for quite some time. In places like Sheffield, Grays, Grimsby et al, working class people are thoroughly disillusioned with the political system as a whole. They see politics as the preserve of an establishment that is thoroughly dishonest, lacking in integrity and detached from their needs and beliefs. They are also on the receiving end of falling wages, decades of deindustrialisation and declining public services. For years upon years, Labour was culpable in that system and has lost huge political capital as a result. On top of that, youth alienation from politics is extremely prevalent depriving Labour of a traditional support base for the left.

However, Labour are also supported by more urbane middle class people and professionals with liberal beliefs - people who were passionately Remain for instance; something entirely at odds with the working class Labour vote who probably voted to Leave. In other words, Labour is holding together two quite different demographics who disagree on stuff like Brexit and immigration.

It's a hard ask for anyone really.

Which is why you need a skilled leader, not a protestor to not just create a new way to appeal to these people in the north but to try and reconcile London liberals with Crewe conservatives. Sadly, Corbyn just seems intent on remaining ideologically pure at all costs leaving a wide open goal for the Tories.

I'm amazed Theresa May waited this long to be honest. Not even 2 months 'til voting day.

Sam Russell · 18-04-2017 08:02PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It's easy to blame Corbyn for all of Labour's woes but to do so is to ignore the wider fact that Labour is facing a deep existential crisis that is afflicting other centrist and social democratic parties to a greater or lesser extent across the developed world. While people can rightly point to the fact that Corbyn isn't popular (although it's unfair to deny media and establishment bias in this happening - opinions are shaped by powerful forces), I doubt that simply replacing him is going to fix the predicament Labour is in.

Scotland was long gone before Corbyn was elected as leader, people there are sick of austerity, sick of being taken for granted and have found a new political vehicle. I'd say this is irreversible.

Working class support has been steadily declining for Labour for quite some time. In places like Sheffield, Grays, Grimsby et al, working class people are thoroughly disillusioned with the political system as a whole. They see politics as the preserve of an establishment that is thoroughly dishonest, lacking in integrity and detached from their needs and beliefs. They are also on the receiving end of falling wages, decades of deindustrialisation and declining public services. For years upon years, Labour was culpable in that system and has lost huge political capital as a result. On top of that, youth alienation from politics is extremely prevalent depriving Labour of a traditional support base for the left.

However, Labour are also supported by more urbane middle class people and professionals with liberal beliefs - people who were passionately Remain for instance; something entirely at odds with the working class Labour vote who probably voted to Leave. In other words, Labour is holding together two quite different demographics who disagree on stuff like Brexit and immigration.

It's a hard ask for anyone really.

The Labour Party was always an uneasy grouping of trade unionists (organised labour) and liberal thinking educated middle class. They split when the gang of four left to form the Social Democrats, but still remained an uneasy amalgam of leftist like Michael Foot, Tony Ben, and 'Red' Ken Livingston, together with the 'New Labour' crowd under Tony Blair. Tony Blair was more a wet Tory than a Labour stalwart.

Under Tony Blair, and latterly Gordon Brown, all the Labour ideals were tossed out with the expedience of achieving and remaining in power.

Labour lost its best leader in John Smith. and ended up with Tony Blair and New Labour, and unending spin.

Where we go from here is anyone's guess.

I saw some mention in one of the news programmes of an impending scandal wrt election malpractice by up to a dozen MPs. Maybe that is what has caused such a volte face by May.

youreadthat · 18-04-2017 08:29PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Scotland was long gone before Corbyn was elected as leader, people there are sick of austerity, sick of being taken for granted and have found a new political vehicle. I'd say this is irreversible.

So they became EU lovers, an institution that both endorsed and enforced austerity on small nations against their will and against most mainstream economist's opinions.

Good luck Scots! Maybe join North Korea instead.

FTA69 · 18-04-2017 08:35PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, the media hates him but you can't pin the blame entirely on them. Younger people voted overwhelmingly to remain (1) while he tried to frustrate the Labour In campaign every chance he got (2, 3). The Tories started winning again when they moved to the centre ground. Labour has decided to do the opposite, setting them back God knows how many years. I won't be voting for them as long as Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne remain. I'd rather the Tories to be honest.

Which is why you need a skilled leader, not a protestor to not just create a new way to appeal to these people in the north but to try and reconcile London liberals with Crewe conservatives. Sadly, Corbyn just seems intent on remaining ideologically pure at all costs leaving a wide open goal for the Tories.

I'm amazed Theresa May waited this long to be honest. Not even 2 months 'til voting day.

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your contention that Corbyn wasn't supportive of Remain. At the end of the day Labour delivered two thirds of its supporters for Remain, even though huge swathes of their constituencies were militantly Leave in an expression of unprecedented working class discontent. I believe it was the same percentage as the SNP - people who are vaunted for being staunchly Remain. The reason he didn't join the "Stronger In" campaign was because Miliband did a similar thing with Better Together which backfired massively as the two were seen as both sides of the same coin. People voted Leave because of a mixture of discontent and xenophobia and nationalism, not because of Corbyn. Either people don't listen to Corbyn and don't like him or he single handedly sunk the campaign with his influence. You can't have it both ways like.

The media stuff is a massive factor, here isn't the place to debate that perhaps but the media shapes opinion like no other and they have basically conducted a systematic assault against him. Was his media strategy sh*t? Definitely. Does that negate the fact that immensely powerful forces went to the gutter in order to attack him? No.

Out of curiosity what do you think Labour should do next?

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 08:47PM

FTA69 wrote: »

People voted Leave because of a mixture of discontent and xenophobia and nationalism, not because of Corbyn. Either people don't listen to Corbyn and don't like him or he single handedly sunk the campaign with his influence. You can't have it both ways like.

I don't blame Corbyn for the people who voted Leave. I blame him for not doing more to get the Labour vote out. Apparently, nearly half of the party's voters didn't know its stance (Source). That's something I can and will lay at his door.

FTA69 wrote: »

The media stuff is a massive factor, here isn't the place to debate that perhaps but the media shapes opinion like no other and they have basically conducted a systematic assault against him. Was his media strategy sh*t? Definitely. Does that negate the fact that immensely powerful forces went to the gutter in order to attack him? No.

Of course it is but what do you expect when elderly people vote in a party bent on gutting the NHS and strangling care homes. People get the government they deserve and if they can't be arsed researching their votes then they're to blame.

The media might be a massive factor but there's also the fact that socialism isn't something that the British will vote for. That's the bigger issue here.

FTA69 wrote: »

Out of curiosity what do you think Labour should do next?

Sort their house out. Either split into Momentum and Progress and sort out a divorce or try and reconcile the 2 and get ready for 2022 because 2017 is going to hurt.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 08:49PM

Mod: This isn't the place for comedy videos, especially when they're just dumped with no original input. Post deleted.

murphaph · 18-04-2017 08:54PM

It's gas...If the country threw the Tories out a couple of short years after electing them and replaced them with the Lib Dems it'd be hailed as democracy but the very notion of a vote on the Brexit deal is decried as treason. Brexiteers.

aled · 18-04-2017 09:02PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: This isn't the place for comedy videos, especially when they're just dumped with no original input. Post deleted.

Sorry ancapailldorcha. If you don't find this election a joke, exactly what do you think it is. erdoğan establishes a dictatorship, may decides she would like a dictatorship also. its not funny at all. And we have trump having a go at North Korea and that's not funny either. But the thing about this is that folks have to relieve the tension rather than taking themselves too seriously. So there really was little wrong with my post, but I agree I should have posted some context with my post. On that you are correct

awec · 18-04-2017 09:13PM

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aled · 18-04-2017 09:25PM

awec wrote: »

It's hardly a dictatorship if she gets the result as the result of a general election.

Yes it is awec. The next election was due in 2020. Do you honestly believe she is doing this for the fun of it. She wants a clear majority to drive through her Brexit agenda unopposed. Which constitutes the wish for a dictatorship or nothing. In my humble opinion she is going to get one right kick up the backside from the British public. But I could be wrong

Leonard Hofstadter · 18-04-2017 09:33PM

aled wrote: »

Yes it is awec. The next election was due in 2020. Do you honestly believe she is doing this for the fun of it. She wants a clear majority to drive through her Brexit agenda unopposed. Which constitutes the wish for a dictatorship or nothing. In my humble opinion she is going to get one right kick up the backside from the British public. But I could be wrong

Not a hope, the Tories will easily get 40% in the polls. Frankly I'd be surprised if they get less than 43 or 44 and less than 400 seats. Labour will be doing well if they come back with more than 150 seats.

aled · 18-04-2017 09:49PM

captainspeed wrote: »

Not a hope, the Tories will easily get 40% in the polls. Frankly I'd be surprised if they get less than 43 or 44 and less than 400 seats. Labour will be doing well if they come back with more than 150 seats.

When you think back to the Lisbon treaty you get some grounding on how folks react to being treated like morons. The populace tend to rebel to being politically misused. I suspect the British public will react likewise. I think this a very unwise decision by her. She is driving through changes (and while these changes were voted through by a slim margin) I think that margin has evaporated as the reality of Brexit hits the UK. To be honest I am gobsmacked by her call for an election. I realise Corbyn is totally unpopular. That said 'Better the devil you know than the devil you don't'. And that's my viewpoint on these elections and how they will pan out

Akrasia · 18-04-2017 10:21PM

awec wrote: »

It's hardly a dictatorship if she gets the result as the result of a general election.

It does come across as rigging the vote when you choose to have an election when you're popular knowing that you're going to be making a whole load of unpopular decisions that the public don't know about yet.

They know they'll be less popular in 3 years time, so they know the decisions they're planning to make will be unpopular.
Democracy is a shambles at the moment. Politicians are reaching peak disengenuinity

marienbad · 18-04-2017 10:32PM

Akrasia wrote: »

It does come across as rigging the vote when you choose to have an election when you're popular knowing that you're going to be making a whole load of unpopular decisions that the public don't know about yet.

They know they'll be less popular in 3 years time, so they know the decisions they're planning to make will be unpopular.
Democracy is a shambles at the moment. Politicians are reaching peak disengenuinity

Prime Ministers have always called elections at the time that best suited their own party interests - this is nothing new .

catbear · 18-04-2017 10:34PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Democracy is a shambles at the moment. Politicians are reaching peak disengenuinity

You don't remember Lenehen's cheapest bailout in history and saying there couldn't be capital flight because ireland was an island?

Then there's Lenehan sr saying Ireland was a small island that couldn't fit everyone and Charlie telling us to tighten our belts while clad in £200 shirts?

I could go on........

catbear · 18-04-2017 10:37PM

aled wrote: »

When you think back to the Lisbon treaty you get some grounding on how folks react to being treated like morons.

The same number people voted no in both Lisbon votes so not really sure what point you're making. The no support hadn't shifted so no real betrayal registered.

2017 UK General Election - 8th June

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