2017 UK General Election - 8th June

devnull · 18-04-2017 1:58pm #1

As discussed in the Brexit thread, probably best for a new thread on this.

It looks like it will be held on June 8th providing Parliament votes for it on Wednesday, which seems to be almost certain and can't personally see it being anything other than an increased majority for the Tory party.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 2:36pm

I was just going to start one. Thanks for this.

I'll likely be voting for the Liberal Democrats.

catbear · 18-04-2017 2:44pm

Basic elements.

1. UKip finished, hyperTory voters return to the mother ship.

2. The rise of LibDem as the pro-EU party.

3. Corbyn's last dance.

4. SNP return with a mandate for Indyref2.

5. British nationalism energised by Brexit make a ugly appearance on the streets.

Any thoughts?

dubal · 18-04-2017 2:53pm

Its another gamble, get a new term when the Corbyn train has labour at rock bottom.

Cameron gambled on Scottish referendum (and won) and Brexit (and lost).

May has a plausible excuse, in that she doesn't want to be have a re-election in the middle of Brexit and destabilise the country, or more accurately, when then things go south post Brexit and she is un-electable.

Dubal

Lemming · 18-04-2017 2:56pm

Voting LibDem; Labour are lame ducks dead in the water with Komerade Corbyn at the helm, and the Tories ... well .... yeah. They can FOAD as a public service.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 3:16pm

The blind ignorance and hatred for Corbyn is sad. Despite the destruction the Tories will reap. People have bought hook, line and sinker the nonsense sold to them by billionaire owners of news media corporations. Sinking the only politician in the last decade who could not be bought and would force them and their ilk to pay any kind of fair share of tax to society. Corbyn was probably the last chance to fight wealth inequality and an utterly corrupt banking and taxation system.

In the end human selfishness remains the driving factor and the inexorable collapse of liberal western democracy will continue apace. Two decades till we are left with a strongly two class society?

Will there be chaos and inevitable riots when the proletariat are finally on their knees? Or will it simply be a quiet return to a feudalistic society? Either way the flame of democracy continues to be slowly extinguished in all but name. All with the aid of an electorate disinterested in anything greater than their narrow and selfish world view.

catbear · 18-04-2017 3:22pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The blind ignorance and hatred for Corbyn is sad.

Oh give over, even May is more credible as being pro-EU than Corbyn ever was.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 3:27pm

A great chance for the Lib Dems to make a significant impact this time. As much as I do have time for a lot of what Corbyn stands for, the fact is that for a huge portion of the electorate including classic labour voters he's unelectable.

It's very interesting. If I was a Tory or a Brexiteer I'd be worried about this. On the face of it it seems like a great deal for the Tories to really put their foot on Labour's neck, but I just can't see Labour or the Libs being so badly beaten up this time around if they can manage to run cohesive campaigns.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 3:27pm

catbear wrote: »

Oh give over, even May is more credible as being pro-EU than Corbyn ever was.

The eu is complicated. So is corbyn's attitude towards it. I'm not going to get into a detailed policy debate. It's pointless because people's minds are made up about Corbyn.

I will say, he's the only candidate with any shred of integrity who will stand up for fairness, equality and holding a runaway wealthy elite to account.

I.e. He is the only one who can prevent democracy from being completely dismantled byte current ruling class of oligarchs. Hence the combined and co certed efforts to demonise him. Sadly they have succeeded and this is the world as it will be.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 3:29pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The blind ignorance and hatred for Corbyn is sad. Despite the destruction the Tories will reap. People have bought hook, line and sinker the nonsense sold to them by billionaire owners of news media corporations. Sinking the only politician in the last decade who could not be bought and would force them and their ilk to pay any kind of fair share of tax to society. Corbyn was probably the last chance to fight wealth inequality and an utterly corrupt banking and taxation system.

In the end human selfishness remains the driving factor and the inexorable collapse of liberal western democracy will continue apace. Two decades till we are left with a strongly two class society?

Will there be chaos and inevitable riots when the proletariat are finally on their knees? Or will it simply be a quiet return to a feudalistic society? Either way the flame of democracy continues to be slowly extinguished in all but name. All with the aid of an electorate disinterested in anything greater than their narrow and selfish world view.

The problem with Corbyn in this specific election is that it's going to be purely run on a EU/Not EU platform like it or not. Corbyn has been something of a Euro Skeptic for years so it will take some swing and a massive improvement on his performance from the actual Brexit ref to turn it around.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 3:31pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The eu is complicated. So is corbyn's attitude towards it. I'm not going to get into a detailed policy debate. It's pointless because people's minds are made up about Corbyn.

I will say, he's the only candidate with any shred of integrity who will stand up for fairness, equality and holding a runaway wealthy elite to account.

I.e. He is the only one who can prevent democracy from being completely dismantled byte current ruling class of oligarchs. Hence the combined and co certed efforts to demonise him. Sadly they have succeeded and this is the world as it will be.

He's got integrity and I like him and his principles. Sadly it'll count for nothing on election days because he's incapable of playing the media game.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 3:32pm

Memnoch wrote: »

I will say, he's the only candidate with any shred of integrity who will stand up for fairness, equality and holding a runaway wealthy elite to account.

I.e. He is the only one who can prevent democracy from being completely dismantled byte current ruling class of oligarchs. Hence the combined and co certed efforts to demonise him. Sadly they have succeeded and this is the world as it will be.

I'm read an excellent book on Brexit at the moment which I would highly recommend.

For the book, Tim Shipman interviewed many, many people on both sides of the debate. On the Labour side, Corbyn's office frustrated as many attempts as possible from the Labour In and the Stronger In campaigns. He also refused to do large events and refused to share a stage with people he disliked of which there were many. Seamus Milne in particular would insist that minor but frustrating changes were made to publicity materials which would require the signatures of sometimes hundreds of MPs.

In my opinion, he is every bit as much of a snake-in-the-grass as any other politician. He got what he wanted and that's all that matters.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 3:34pm

Jayop wrote: »

He's got integrity and I like him and his principles. Sadly it'll count for nothing on election days because he's incapable of playing the media game.

The media game requires selling out to the status quo. Billionaire media barons will not stomach a candidate that cannot be bought and who might force them out of their tax havens. The electorate have fallen for their narrative.

Democracy requires informed choice. This no longer exists.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 3:36pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm read an excellent book on Brexit at the moment which I would highly recommend.

For the book, Tim Shipman interviewed many, many people on both sides of the debate. On the Labour side, Corbyn's office frustrated as many attempts as possible from the Labour In and the Stronger In campaigns. He also refused to do large events and refused to share a stage with people he disliked of which there were many. Seamus Milne in particular would insist that minor but frustrating changes were made to publicity materials which would require the signatures of sometimes hundreds of MPs.

In my opinion, he is every bit as much of a snake-in-the-grass as any other politician. He got what he wanted and that's all that matters.

IMO wealth inequality is the only issue of our time. Everything ties back to this. It's game, set and match for the very idea of liberal, western democracy. Do you see any other candidate who will take this on?

Thanks for your recommendation. I will check out the book. I am deeply sceptical of Labour sources who might be in thrall to the likes of 'Progress.'

Sam Russell · 18-04-2017 3:36pm

Jayop wrote: »

The problem with Corbyn in this specific election is that it's going to be purely run on a EU/Not EU platform like it or not. Corbyn has been something of a Euro Skeptic for years so it will take some swing and a massive improvement on his performance from the actual Brexit ref to turn it around.

A week is a long time in politics. Six weeks is an eternity.

May has said, only the other day and many times before, that she was not going for a snap election. That is a credibility issue.

She campaigned for remain, but immediately on becoming PM started shouting for the hardest brixit. That is a credibility issue.

She put that idiot BoJo in as Foreign Sec. That is a credibility issue.

Now, are all those issues enough to contain Labour under Jezza? NHS, disability allowances removed, education?

Six weeks to save the world.

demfad · 18-04-2017 3:37pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The eu is complicated. So is corbyn's attitude towards it. I'm not going to get into a detailed policy debate. It's pointless because people's minds are made up about Corbyn.

I will say, he's the only candidate with any shred of integrity who will stand up for fairness, equality and holding a runaway wealthy elite to account.

I.e. He is the only one who can prevent democracy from being completely dismantled byte current ruling class of oligarchs. Hence the combined and co certed efforts to demonise him. Sadly they have succeeded and this is the world as it will be.

But Brexit accelerates class division. It necessitates that workers have to pay for a low tax coorporate state: the only workable economic model outside the EU. Little money for NHS or social welfare. Takes money from the poor and gives to the rich.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 3:42pm

demfad wrote: »

But Brexit accelerates class division. It necessitates that workers have to pay for a low tax coorporate state: the only workable economic model outside the EU. Little money for NHS or social welfare. Takes money from the poor and gives to the rich.

A Tory brexit yes. In general I'm against brexit. But the eu has not been immune to corruption by neoliberal economic bribing.

Ireland is a corporate tax haven in all but name and completely within the eu. We facilitate the legalised theft of endless billions in tax income.

As I said, it's complicated. I would prefer democratic reform. But this it seems isn't and never was on the cards. Either in the EU, Ireland or the UK.

catbear · 18-04-2017 3:52pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The eu is complicated. So is corbyn's attitude towards it. I'm not going to get into a detailed policy debate. It's pointless because people's minds are made up about Corbyn.

Corbyn isn't, never was pro-EU or its previous incarnations, and the EU was never going to realign to suit either his or the Tories politics.

catbear · 18-04-2017 3:54pm

Memnoch wrote: »

A Tory brexit yes. In general I'm against brexit. But the eu has not been immune to corruption by neoliberal economic bribing.

Ireland is a corporate tax haven in all but name and completely within the eu. We facilitate the legalised theft of endless billions in tax income.

As I said, it's complicated. I would prefer democratic reform. But this it seems isn't and never was on the cards. Either in the EU, Ireland or the UK.

You want to talk about tax havens? Look at London and Gibraltar for tax evasion!

Ireland has a low open transparent tax rate but when it comes to actual evasion the UK is in the top spot in the EU.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 3:55pm

Memnoch wrote: »

Democracy requires informed choice. This no longer exists.

It does, moreso than ever before. You can download the full manifesto of any party in seconds and find quality analysis just as easily. If White Van Man wants to vote for UKIP despite the fact that they'd love to shut down the care home his Mum lives in then that's his business.

Memnoch wrote: »

IMO wealth inequality is the only issue of our time. Everything ties back to this. It's game, set and match for the very idea of liberal, western democracy. Do you see any other candidate who will take this on?

You can say this about any cause IMO. Veganism, environmentalism, feminism, etc.... Everyone thinks that their crusade is the most important. Personally, I'm skeptical of grand causes.

Memnoch wrote: »

Thanks for your recommendation. I will check out the book. I am deeply sceptical of Labour sources who might be in thrall to the likes of 'Progress.'

Y'see, this is part of the problem. It creates a fundamentally anti-intellectual way of dismissing arguments you dislike. If those on the centrist side of the party dismiss points they dislike as being part of a Momentum plot then you end up with a polarised debate with each side throwing fecal matter at the other while the Tories barely have to lift a finger to win a majority in Parliament.

Do check out the book though. It's remarkably balanced and as impartial as I think it could have been given how quickly it was put together.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:03pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It does, moreso than ever before. You can download the full manifesto of any party in seconds and find quality analysis just as easily. If White Van Man wants to vote for UKIP despite the fact that they'd love to shut down the care home his Mum lives in then that's his business.

You can say this about any cause IMO. Veganism, environmentalism, feminism, etc.... Everyone thinks that their crusade is the most important. Personally, I'm skeptical of grand causes.

Y'see, this is part of the problem. It creates a fundamentally anti-intellectual way of dismissing arguments you dislike. If those on the centrist side of the party dismiss points they dislike as being part of a Momentum plot then you end up with a polarised debate with each side throwing fecal matter at the other while the Tories barely have to lift a finger to win a majority in Parliament.

Do check out the book though. It's remarkably balanced and as impartial as I think it could have been given how quickly it was put together.

White man van is human, his circumstances limit his exposure and opportunity to learn. It is his business but has he made that informed choice? Does he know his mums care home will be shut? That the NHS he will someday need is being dismantled?

The centrists seem bought and sold to me. Only out for themselves. Voted for Iraq war. Voted to block inquiries into it. Happy to bring down Corbyn to suit their corporate pay masters.

Will check out the book.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 4:04pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The media game requires selling out to the status quo. Billionaire media barons will not stomach a candidate that cannot be bought and who might force them out of their tax havens. The electorate have fallen for their narrative.

Democracy requires informed choice. This no longer exists.

It's up to Labour to make sure that their message gets across then and not rely on the media. Take an extreme example here in Ireland, SF are hated by the media including the state broadcaster, yet with very clever social media campaigns, being very strong in live debates (with the exception of GA in the leadership debate) so that their message is broadcast.

Labour are a huge organisation with mass membership so surely running effective social media campaigns is what they should be focused on. Forget the Sun/Mail/Express type readers, they're never going to vote for them anyway. Fight the battles you can win.

Sam Russell wrote: »

A week is a long time in politics. Six weeks is an eternity.

May has said, only the other day and many times before, that she was not going for a snap election. That is a credibility issue.

She campaigned for remain, but immediately on becoming PM started shouting for the hardest brixit. That is a credibility issue.

She put that idiot BoJo in as Foreign Sec. That is a credibility issue.

Now, are all those issues enough to contain Labour under Jezza? NHS, disability allowances removed, education?

Six weeks to save the world.

I hope you're right dude.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:04pm

catbear wrote: »

You want to talk about tax havens? Look at London and Gibraltar for tax evasion!

Ireland has a low open transparent tax rate but when it comes to actual evasion the UK is in the top spot in the EU.

And out of all the candidates, Corbyn is the only one who might do something about it.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:07pm

Jayop wrote: »

It's up to Labour to make sure that their message gets across then and not rely on the media. Take an extreme example here in Ireland, SF are hated by the media including the state broadcaster, yet with very clever social media campaigns, being very strong in live debates (with the exception of GA in the leadership debate) so that their message is broadcast.

Labour are a huge organisation with mass membership so surely running effective social media campaigns is what they should be focused on. Forget the Sun/Mail/Express type readers, they're never going to vote for them anyway. Fight the battles you can win.

I hope you're right dude.

Too many so called centrist labour MPs have been sabotaging Corbyn from day one. Add the weight of the so called left win news outlets like Independent and the Guardian and it's a perfect storm of lies and disinformation. Hard to overcome that.

Fighting battles only you can win means never fighting the battle on wealth inequality.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 4:08pm

Memnoch wrote: »

White man van is human, his circumstances limit his exposure and opportunity to learn. It is his business but has he made that informed choice? Does he know his mums care home will be shut? That the NHS he will someday need is being dismantled?

This is what I was saying. He has more opportunity to learn than ever before. He'll have received a state education so he can read and he'll very likely own a smartphone which can download ebooks very cheaply in seconds. I don't buy newspapers because I don't trust any of them but I can still stay informed. It's not difficult.

Memnoch wrote: »

The centrists seem bought and sold to me. Only out for themselves. Voted for Iraq war. Voted to block inquiries into it. Happy to bring down Corbyn to suit their corporate pay masters.

And the centrists will dismiss any criticism as being part of a Momentum takeover plot and so it continues with no progress (pardon the pun) being made and the Tories get elected yet again.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 4:12pm

Memnoch wrote: »

Too many so called centrist labour MPs have been sabotaging Corbyn from day one. Add the weight of the so called left win news outlets like Independent and the Guardian and it's a perfect storm of lies and disinformation. Hard to overcome that.

Fighting battles only you can win means never fighting the battle on wealth inequality.

Is the Independent considered left wing? It seems more center right to me from any time I have a read.

I'd read the Guardian every day and I think they've been fair to Corbyn.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:12pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is what I was saying. He has more opportunity to learn than ever before. He'll have received a state education so he can read and he'll very likely own a smartphone which can download ebooks very cheaply in seconds. I don't buy newspapers because I don't trust any of them but I can still stay informed. It's not difficult.

And the centrists will dismiss any criticism as being part of a Momentum takeover plot and so it continues with no progress (pardon the pun) being made and the Tories get elected yet again.

The centrists have no issue with the Labour Party being destroyed. As long as it stops someone like Corbyn. Their corporate pay masters have cushy jobs lined up for them as a reward.

The issue is choice. A centrist Labour Party in thrall to a set of wealthy elite is no alternative to a Tory party in thrall to a set of slightly different wealthy elite. Neither has any interest in representing the needs of the electorate.

In theory it's not difficult to stay informed. In effect that's not the case. Otherwise Trump would not be in power.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:13pm

Jayop wrote: »

Is the Independent considered left wing? It seems more center right to me from any time I have a read.

I'd read the Guardian every day and I think they've been fair to Corbyn.

Independent were left wing, once upon a time.

Guardian have stuck the knife in ruthlessly and relentlessly. Look for the last time they had a positive article about Corbyn. Absolutely shameful they have been.

catbear · 18-04-2017 4:15pm

Memnoch wrote: »

White man van is human, his circumstances limit his exposure and opportunity to learn. It is his business but has he made that informed choice? Does he know his mums care home will be shut? That the NHS he will someday need is being dismantled?

That is so patronizing. I'm waiting for you to say they need to be liberated form their vote so only good decisions will be made by glorious leader Corbyn.

I'd laugh only I know it's serious sycophants like yourself that's kept Corbyn in while he's alienates many more. True believers.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 4:15pm

Memnoch wrote: »

The centrists have no issue with the Labour Party being destroyed. As long as it stops someone like Corbyn. Their corporate pay masters have cushy jobs lined up for them as a reward.

What about Momentum? Len McCluskey doesn't look like he's short of a few bob to hand out to anyone if he has a reason to.

Memnoch wrote: »

The issue is choice. A centrist Labour Party in thrall to a set of wealthy elite is no alternative to a Tory party in thrall to a set of slightly different wealthy elite. Neither has any interest in representing the needs of the electorate.

You can say the same about Corbyn and trade unions. See where this leads?

Memnoch wrote: »

In theory it's not difficult to stay informed. In effect that's not the case. Otherwise Trump would not be in power.

It's not difficult but one actually has to make an effort. Trump is off-topic so I'm not responding to that.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 4:19pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What about Momentum? Len McCluskey doesn't look like he's short of a few bob to hand out to anyone if he has a reason to.

You can say the same about Corbyn and trade unions. See where this leads?

It's not difficult but one actually has to make an effort. Trump is off-topic so I'm not responding to that.

Momentum and Mcclusky against the entire news media and political establishment with the backing of the world's richest people behind them?

Edit p.s. If not Trump, Brexit then.

P.p.s. I would consider Trade unions to be far more democratic and closer to supporting democracy than billionaire political donors.

2017 UK General Election - 8th June

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