The urgent need for self sufficiency

realitykeeper · 10-04-2017 5:57am #1

At the start of the great depression, President Hoover advised citizens to start their own vegetable plots on any bit of land they might own. This was good advice because the depression was a time of hunger. Given that another depression worse than the great depression is on the way, the same advise should be acted upon today. Harvesting rainwater and investing in a solar panel is also a good idea. Increasing home security may also be necessary but if everyone could grow at least some of their own food, at least they would have something to barter with.

I think the trigger for the next great depression may originate in China. The Chinese will stop investing in infrastructure and begin a new economic phase, which will see millions moving into China`s cities. The cost of the goods they export will initially fall but then increase sharply. A lot of Chinese manufacturing will move to lower cost economies.

Returning to self sufficiency in Ireland, it is worth doing if only to be environmentally responsible. Also, the Irish need to get away from this notion that money is more valuable than work. Money is just digits in a computer that are perceived as valuable. Work produces tangible benefits. Work is transformative. Am I wrong?

Mark Tapley · 10-04-2017 6:43am

Wanderer78 · 10-04-2017 7:00am

Im not worried about this at all, the 'deal maker' will sort it all out!

Nody · 10-04-2017 8:53am

Wrong in the sense that no country will ever be self sufficient ever again (NK would be the closest bet in trying due to circumstances I'd wager); however that does not mean on a personal level people can be helped getting out of the buy buy buy loop. Esp. for people on unemployment / long term sick leave etc. it could help their personal economy if they were given a bit of land to grow on close by to compliment their personal economy for example or make it mandatory for schools as classes (and use the fresh veggies / fruit for school lunches). Not everyone would bother but for the once that do I'd say it would be of help; problem of course being having said land to use etc. in the first place that's close enough but that can be resolved.

Permabear · 10-04-2017 1:04pm

This post has been deleted.

Sam Russell · 10-04-2017 1:49pm

The problem with growing you own food is that when a particular crop is in season, it is in glut, and after that it is finished. It requires great skill to get a crop to last long enough that it can supply your needs on the shoulder of its natural cropping time.

Commercial growers can now keep potatoes and apples in storage for the full 12 months so there is no 'season'. That is not possible for domestic, part-time growers. Potatoes, apples, and tomatoes are all successful crops, even in suburban gardens, and the results are worth it as the quality and flavour is better than commercial crops, and at least you know what was put on the crop to make it grow. However, the resultant crop only keeps for a short while.

Food is too cheap to make self sufficiency to be worth it.

ScumLord · 10-04-2017 2:33pm

There's very few groups of humans that have ever been "self sufficient". There's plenty of evidence from prehistoric Britain that they were trading goods that came from as far away as Africa and India, even back then they needed access to a European market to make things like bronze and that's before the Romans ever show up.

Ireland could probably be somewhat self sufficient but it's going to be pretty miserable existence, the stuff we can grow here is a bit bland. We can grow meat well but outside of that most other countries can grow veg easier and cheaper.

I've known people that have had a go at growing their own veg, they spend months doing it and end up with fantastic food at the end of it. Which is all gone by the end of that week. It's unlikely that the average house garden could produce enough food to feed a family for long. When the choice is between spending â‚¬3 or 6 months it's easy to see why most people just go to the shop.

Sam Russell · 10-04-2017 5:36pm

Most farmers do not even bother growing their own spuds, cabbage, or carrots now. Many dairy farmers still get their milk from the shop as it is pasteurised.

Owryan · 10-04-2017 5:43pm

Have you narrowed down when this depression will come?

You ve been predicting it for years now.

In my opinion the days of any country being completely self reliant are gone. We can't turn back time and reverse globalisation.

Unlike your other threads where you want others to take pay cuts so you don't have to, or have people thrown into workhouses for no reason are you going to take the lead in this?

How about you start going your own food, make your own clothes, generate your own power and then come back and tell us how easy it is.

I can't help imagine that amidst the suffering of this next depression (if/when it occurs)you will be getting off to your own sense of smugness.

silverharp · 10-04-2017 5:47pm

food is cheap and takes a lot less man hours than in the 1930's as long as there are functioning markets. In a country like Ireland you would could only choose to starve to death.
we do have a weird economy that allows someone to sit on the sofa and get paid while bringing in other people to pick mushrooms, if would be better for everyone if there was less choice in this regard

realitykeeper · 10-04-2017 11:34pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes but there are imbalances in the markets due to political interference on a massive scale. When the markets fail, people must be self reliant until the markets right themselves. Here in the west, people have lost faith in market capitalism without even realizing it. The minimum wage is an example of this loss of faith and it is another form of market interference.

The division of labour works well in capitalist countries like China but in the post capitalist west, people will need to fend for themselves and it would be much more difficult to make this transition when the need for it becomes obvious.

realitykeeper · 10-04-2017 11:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Food is too cheap to make self sufficiency to be worth it.

In a functioning market economy, this is true but the market economy could stop functioning overnight.

realitykeeper · 10-04-2017 11:49pm

ScumLord wrote: »

There's very few groups of humans that have ever been "self sufficient". There's plenty of evidence from prehistoric Britain that they were trading goods that came from as far away as Africa and India, even back then they needed access to a European market to make things like bronze and that's before the Romans ever show up.

Ireland could probably be somewhat self sufficient but it's going to be pretty miserable existence, the stuff we can grow here is a bit bland. We can grow meat well but outside of that most other countries can grow veg easier and cheaper.

I've known people that have had a go at growing their own veg, they spend months doing it and end up with fantastic food at the end of it. Which is all gone by the end of that week. It's unlikely that the average house garden could produce enough food to feed a family for long. When the choice is between spending â‚¬3 or 6 months it's easy to see why most people just go to the shop.

You would be surprised what could be done with a little ingenuity. Bananas are grown in Iceland with a little help from thermal springs for example. Of course the Irish answer to that is there are no thermal springs in Ireland. Still, the Dutch manage to grow quite a lot of food and they don`t have thermal springs either.

Total self sufficiency may be possible in a biosphere but this is definitely not about total self sufficiency. It is about 3 bed semis with unused gardens.

realitykeeper · 10-04-2017 11:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Most farmers do not even bother growing their own spuds, cabbage, or carrots now. Many dairy farmers still get their milk from the shop as it is pasteurised.

Exactly. This is the problem. Also, a total economic collapse will see the return of the drover just like in the Padraig Colum poem (A Drover). With a severe fuel shortage, cattle will be herded on foot along the motorways to Dublin.

realitykeeper · 11-04-2017 12:04am

Owryan wrote: »

Have you narrowed down when this depression will come?

You ve been predicting it for years now.

In my opinion the days of any country being completely self reliant are gone. We can't turn back time and reverse globalisation.

Unlike your other threads where you want others to take pay cuts so you don't have to, or have people thrown into workhouses for no reason are you going to take the lead in this?

How about you start going your own food, make your own clothes, generate your own power and then come back and tell us how easy it is.

I can't help imagine that amidst the suffering of this next depression (if/when it occurs)you will be getting off to your own sense of smugness.

Even where there is a large measure of self sufficiency, there is ample room for people to specialize. For example, person A grows 4 crops and person B crows 4 other kinds of crop, person C is a cobbler, the grannies of A,B and C all knit person E`s wool while persons F and G are butchers and shoemakers respectively. That kind of thing.

donaghs · 11-04-2017 11:31am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As mentioned, total self-sufficiency would be extremely hard to achieve, and not much fun. But if you have garden space, and the right climate, you could for example grow potatoes, this takes very little work, (some initial digging, a little bit a piling on more earth later) and has a good yield. They are very low-maintenance, so would not interfere with your day job.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem with growing you own food is that when a particular crop is in season, it is in glut, and after that it is finished. It requires great skill to get a crop to last long enough that it can supply your needs on the shoulder of its natural cropping time.

Commercial growers can now keep potatoes and apples in storage for the full 12 months so there is no 'season'. That is not possible for domestic, part-time growers. Potatoes, apples, and tomatoes are all successful crops, even in suburban gardens, and the results are worth it as the quality and flavour is better than commercial crops, and at least you know what was put on the crop to make it grow. However, the resultant crop only keeps for a short while.

Food is too cheap to make self sufficiency to be worth it.

People in the past figured out how to do this. e.g. Irish people practically lived off potatoes. In the case of potatoes, they were able to preserve the crop through the winter by using potato pits. Not much fun maybe, but just saying it can be done.

Sam Russell · 11-04-2017 12:25pm

donaghs wrote: »

As mentioned, total self-sufficiency would be extremely hard to achieve, and not much fun. But if you have garden space, and the right climate, you could for example grow potatoes, this takes very little work, (some initial digging, a little bit a piling on more earth later) and has a good yield. They are very low-maintenance, so would not interfere with your day job.

People in the past figured out how to do this. e.g. Irish people practically lived off potatoes. In the case of potatoes, they were able to preserve the crop through the winter by using potato pits. Not much fun maybe, but just saying it can be done.

If we are talking about self-sufficiency at a personal level, than that is not worth it and probably impossible for most.

If it is at a national level, then perhaps it might be possible at some level. Poly-tunnels have a huge effect on what crops can be grown here, and extends the season on most normal crops, like strawberries.

With a little effort, I think most could live on self-produced praities, bacon and cabbage for most of the year, while looking forward to the Wexford strawberries and fresh cream in the summer. We still over-produce lamb, milk and beef nationally. Chicken and pork are also easy to increase the national production to a level of sufficiency.

I do not see the problem at a national level, however, I will not be getting my spade out of the shed anytime soon.

relax carry on · 11-04-2017 2:05pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Exactly. This is the problem. Also, a total economic collapse will see the return of the drover just like in the Padraig Colum poem (A Drover). With a severe fuel shortage, cattle will be herded on foot along the motorways to Dublin.

So have you gone total prepper or what? There's a survivalist forum on boards i think where your self sufficiency ideas may have been discussed.

Are Am Eye · 11-04-2017 9:46pm

I think it would be an apocalyptic collapse in civilisation more so than a period of negative economic growth that would instigate us to bartering and scavenging for food, water and fuel. Accompanied by an australian cattle dog. Can one ever really be ready for the collapse of civilisation. Maybe we'll all just have to wing it.

ancapailldorcha · 11-04-2017 10:28pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Exactly. This is the problem. Also, a total economic collapse will see the return of the drover just like in the Padraig Colum poem (A Drover). With a severe fuel shortage, cattle will be herded on foot along the motorways to Dublin.

relax carry on wrote: »

So have you gone total prepper or what? There's a survivalist forum on boards i think where your self sufficiency ideas may have been discussed.

Are Am Eye wrote: »

I think it would be an apocalyptic collapse in civilisation more so than a period of negative economic growth that would instigate us to bartering and scavenging for food, water and fuel. Accompanied by an australian cattle dog. Can one ever really be ready for the collapse of civilisation. Maybe we'll all just have to wing it.

Less of the nonsense please. This forum is for serious discussion and the thread topic is economic self sufficiency.

ScumLord · 12-04-2017 12:45pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You would be surprised what could be done with a little ingenuity. Bananas are grown in Iceland with a little help from thermal springs for example. Of course the Irish answer to that is there are no thermal springs in Ireland. Still, the Dutch manage to grow quite a lot of food and they don`t have thermal springs either.

Total self sufficiency may be possible in a biosphere but this is definitely not about total self sufficiency. It is about 3 bed semis with unused gardens.

My father grew a banana tree in a polytunnel, but those things require maintenance, power and water. It's basically not worth the effort. You get a handful of bananas eventually, and it's cost you water, money and time that could have been spent more productively elsewhere. Polytunnels are for hobbyists that want to grow something exotic, they're not really a commercially viable way of doing things when the global market can plonk whatever it is you want to grow on your table for a few cent straight away.

If people didn't have other things to do it would be possible, sure. Although we'd still need to be plugged into a global market to import all the equipment we'd need. But the advantage of being human is we specialise, farmers farm so others can do other things, to have us all doing the same thing is un-human.

realitykeeper · 12-04-2017 5:07pm

ScumLord wrote: »

My father grew a banana tree in a polytunnel, but those things require maintenance, power and water. It's basically not worth the effort. You get a handful of bananas eventually, and it's cost you water, money and time that could have been spent more productively elsewhere. Polytunnels are for hobbyists that want to grow something exotic, they're not really a commercially viable way of doing things when the global market can plonk whatever it is you want to grow on your table for a few cent straight away.

If people didn't have other things to do it would be possible, sure. Although we'd still need to be plugged into a global market to import all the equipment we'd need. But the advantage of being human is we specialise, farmers farm so others can do other things, to have us all doing the same thing is un-human.

In the first paragraph, you missed the point. In Ireland, we have other resources to those in Iceland. The Icelanders use their resources to produce bananas because that is something their resources allow them to do. In the Netherlands, they have the education and incentives to invest in commercial horticulture. In other words, they use what they have to best effect. So growing bananas in polytunnels in Ireland is not a comparable analogy because as you say yourself it is impractical. Using our resources to their best effect involves the practical. In Ireland, we invest a lot of money in a lot of things but most of those things are rather foolish in terms of expecting an adequate return on the investment. A polytunnel is a good investment, but planting bananas in it is not (unless you are just doing it as an interest).

Politicians have not been conducive to Ireland developing its true potential and now it is too late for them to start being model politicians because the mother of all recessions will flatten the economy long before the benefits of responsible governance could take effect (not that responsible governance is anywhere on the horizon).

So, the point is that people need to think about going off grid as much as possible. This applies to food, water, electricity and probably even sewage. Everyone has spare time during which they can work on such projects. In the case of planting in the garden, very little cost is incurred. Investing in a solar panel may seem expensive and unnecessary while electricity is affordable but if a constant electricity supply was no longer available and if the cost of electricity (and solar panels) were to increase sharply, then people would need to alter their expectations accordingly.

This is why I think prepping is a good idea.

ScumLord · 12-04-2017 5:25pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

In the first paragraph, you missed the point. In Ireland, we have other resources to those in Iceland. The Icelanders use their resources to produce bananas because that is something their resources allow them to do. In the Netherlands, they have the education and incentives to invest in commercial horticulture. In other words, they use what they have to best effect. So growing bananas in polytunnels in Ireland is not a comparable analogy because as you say yourself it is impractical. Using our resources to their best effect involves the practical and not the impractical.

Are these comercial operations though? It's not the case that the government is building these things to provide locally produced state bananas, is it?

So, the point is that people need to think about going off grid as much as possible.

Buying solar panels and stuff isn't really going off the grid though, they require maintenance, they're fairly advanced tech that require a global market. Making your own water turbine to run off a stream might be more off the grid but you'll still need to buy in generators and stuff from abroad. It's still replacing large scale cheap production with small scale expensive production. It's adding complication, variables and failure points.

realitykeeper · 12-04-2017 5:46pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Are these comercial operations though? It's not the case that the government is building these things to provide locally produced state bananas, is it?

Buying solar panels and stuff isn't really going off the grid though, they require maintenance, they're fairly advanced tech that require a global market. Making your own water turbine to run off a stream might be more off the grid but you'll still need to buy in generators and stuff from abroad. It's still replacing large scale cheap production with small scale expensive production. It's adding complication, variables and failure points.

Yes those are commercial and it is a very bad idea for governments to invest in such projects because they are sure to waste a lot of money and of course they would mess the whole thing up big time. The reason I am advocating individuals take responsibility for their own self sufficiency is because I believe a major recession will come sooner rather than later and people will need to become self sufficient out of necessity. It would be easier to do that this side of a total economic implosion.

A terraced house in Dublin would not have a stream running alongside it but it would have a roof. Solar panels for electricity typically work well for a least 20 years before their effectiveness begins to wane.

ancapailldorcha · 12-04-2017 7:16pm

I have decided to lock this thread given that there seems to be very little scope for political discussion in it.

The urgent need for self sufficiency

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