BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

ClovenHoof · 24-03-2017 06:36PM

BanCapitalism wrote: »

Capitalism is evil, we must all remember than people must always come before greedy private shareholders.

I overheard the steering committee of People Before Profit saying just that in a Michelin Star Restaurant the other night.

myshirt · 24-03-2017 06:37PM

These boys had it too good for too long, they have some neck not to ask the consumer to continue to finance them while they kick back, smoke cigars, and eat lobster.

This isn't the work houses of the late 1800's, there is no sticking it to the man workers struggle to the level that left wing fantasy would have you believe. Significant problem in this country is very vast majority of us are actually financially illiterate and haven't a clue how to understand a company financial position and the key drivers of financial performance.

Trust me, these boys have had it waaaaay too good for too long, but to be fair to them the culture is the same in other public service areas and that's the real problem. Teachers, guards, the lot of them, all with the paw out, not giving a flying f#ck about anyone else. National broadcaster failing abysmally in communicating how this translates to the ordinary punters day to day life, and thus people carry on and ignore believing it has limited to none, but for those in the know it really, really has a significant impact on us all to be overpaying these people. That's the sad reality.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-03-2017 06:40PM

Donal55 wrote:

Its like asking can drivers use the bus lanes etc. It wont happen. It would probably exacerbate things and drag Dublin Bus into the mess if restrictions started being relaxed.

Not the same though. Car drivers aren't inconvenienced because the leave they normally use isn't available and bus lanes are used by cyclists.

I don't think it would exacerbate things and if rail is seriously affected from sneaky picketing, I'd say it would be suitably justified.

lawlolawl · 24-03-2017 06:40PM

myshirt wrote: »

These boys had it too good for too long, they have some neck not to ask the consumer to continue to finance them while they kick back, smoke cigars, and eat lobster.

This isn't the work houses of the late 1800's, there is no sticking it to the man workers struggle to the level that left wing fantasy would have you believe. Significant problem in this country is very vast majority of us are actually financially illiterate and haven't a clue how to understand a company financial position and the key drivers of financial performance.

Trust me, these boys have had it waaaaay too good for too long, but to be fair to them the culture is the same in other public service areas and that's the real problem. Teachers, guards, the lot of them, all with the paw out, not giving a flying f#ck about anyone else. National broadcaster failing abysmally in communicating how this translates to the ordinary punters day to day life, and thus people carry on and ignore believing it has limited to none, but for those in the know it really, really has a significant impact on us all to be overpaying these people. That's the sad reality.

Who are "these boys" in this rant?

myshirt · 24-03-2017 06:41PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Who are "these boys" in this rant?

Those out on the picket line.

Brendan Bendar · 24-03-2017 06:44PM

roddy15 wrote: »

The government have every business in this, it's taxpayer money and public transport. If it were some private bus company sure but to say they have no business in this when the company is pretty much state funded is ridiculous.

And I'm not sure how well tendering out to private contractors will actually work, we see time and time again how ****ty private sector greed is when we privatise areas of public service, agency staff in the HSE, Eir etc. I'd rather see a cost breakdown of a potential tender for private contractors first before wishing away public services to private companies who's major motivation is profit.

Govt. have no business in this Roddy.

JQ Taxpayer has been gouged enough by this sector, it's gone beyond a joke.

The mechanisms of dispute resolution are there, go use them, Minister Ross seems to have dug in on this one ,and that's good, at last someone standing up for the taxpayer against these, what I can only describe as,people bent on wrecking this country.

Time the Govt. acted to reduce these people's clout and ability to bring the country to a halt in pursuit of their outrageous demands and antiquated 'work' practices.

This companies cost base is way out of kilter with competitors and is a vehicle for screwing the ta payer and providing a series of nice little earners for the employees all at the expense of tax payers on several deciles less pay and conditions.

Time to face these people down- hopefully this is the OK corral.

Donal55 · 24-03-2017 06:45PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Not the same though. Car drivers aren't inconvenienced because the leave they normally use isn't available and bus lanes are used by cyclists.

I don't think it would exacerbate things and if rail is seriously affected from sneaky picketing, I'd say it would be suitably justified.

Could the govt allow the goal posts to be changed so as to favour one side in a dispute? Considering that same govt has been consistent in saying that it cannot get involved one way or another since this whole issue first started.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 06:49PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It is ironic left wing people support this strike. I am neither left or rightwing 100% but lean to the left on most issues. The strike is about 2 sets of rich capitalists, BE executives and union bosses, slogging it out and point scoring. The people get no service for a day and maybe a lot longer and are suffering because 2 sets of cretins are acting like children. BE is a disaster of a company that has been poorly run in every way. It is poorly managed, suffers from the usual top heavy on top management structure, etc. It has filthy coaches that often break down, it overcharges its customers. Its union is just a gang of troublemakers who care only about themselves and not the public or even the workers.

Say what one wants about private buses but BE are no socialist service. They are a rip off for most routes. It also is hardly leftwing to support a strike lead by well paid union executives that disrupts the ordinary people. ALL SIDES in BE are toxic and the people will not forget this strike and the total disregard for the public shown by ALL entities in this failed company.

its simple, LUAS was a clear stalking horse by the Unions to see what could be achieved , This was then exacerbated by the Gardai pay deal , where the state was basically held at virtually gunpoint by its own police force

The financial condition of BE then offered the next stage of the " game " to the transport unions. remember they dont give a fig about bus services for the state of BE. All they care about is forcing Shane ross to the table with his cheque book

BE management is a pawn in this game , because BE management is incapable of doing anything as it has no money and BE management like all CIE management dont really control its own company ( thats in effect a joint DTTAS/DoFinance and the unions )

Once the Gov sticks to its resolve and Shane Ross is a good man to have here as he dislikes CIE , then this strike goes nowhere and will crumble, CIE is not a key component that it once was

BuilderPlumber · 24-03-2017 06:49PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I overheard the steering committee of People Before Profit saying just that in a Michelin Star Restaurant the other night.

All these so-called left wing socialists are frauds actually. They support things like this strike but they do not suffer because of it. They don't care about some poor worker who depends on a monopoly run BE service. Of course they go to Michelin Star restaurants and live the life of the well to do selfish capitalists they are. They are an insult to both capitalists and communists alike and cannot be honest about being the former and pretend to be the latter. The unions are full of such types and they are no different to the BE management: both sides are only interested in maintaining their big jobs with all their perks. Suppose if BE goes broke: its top management team will get fine jobs somewhere else and the union men will maintain theirs as well. The losers are the people here.

pilly · 24-03-2017 06:51PM

BoatMad wrote:

Once the Gov sticks to its resolve and Shane Ross is a good man to have here as he dislikes CIE , then this strike goes nowhere and will crumble

Did Shane Ross not give in to Dublin Bus though?

bobdasaw · 24-03-2017 06:53PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I overheard the steering committee of People Before Profit saying just that in a Michelin Star Restaurant the other night.

All these so-called left wing socialists are frauds actually. They support things like this strike but they do not suffer because of it. They don't care about some poor worker who depends on a monopoly run BE service. Of course they go to Michelin Star restaurants and live the life of the well to do selfish capitalists they are. They are an insult to both capitalists and communists alike and cannot be honest about being the former and pretend to be the latter. The unions are full of such types and they are no different to the BE management: both sides are only interested in maintaining their big jobs with all their perks. Suppose if BE goes broke: its top management team will get fine jobs somewhere else and the union men will maintain theirs as well. The losers are the people here.

How dare you call us activists frauds.

Without unions 1916 may have never happened and the Union movement allowed us to have paid weekends, public holidays and many more things.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 06:54PM

Without unions 1916 may have never happened and the Union movement allowed us to have paid weekends, public holidays and many more things.

I here unions were responsible for mothers milk , the talking movies, sliced bread and apple pie too

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 06:57PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

Bus Eireann has been deliberately undermined over many years with the private operators gifted the lucrative routes between urban centers and big towns driving of course on the state constructed motorway network while BE serves the social service loss making runs to small towns, villages and rural areas.

BE Expressway services are specifically set up as commercial operations, they do not qualify got PSO subsides

BE has been loosing revenue to private operators that are more agile, have lower costs and provide a better service that customers willingly choose them over BE

BE management cant reduce costs to make themselves more competitive cause they are locked into unproductive workplace agreements, excessive overtime and high general costs

the result is clear, the commercial arm of BE has failed .

There is simply NO need for BE Expressway , private operators would be more then glad ( as City link has clearly demonstrated ) that it would be happy to provide such services, all of which are controlled by the NTA anyway

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 06:58PM

Without unions 1916 may have never happened and the Union movement allowed us to have paid weekends, public holidays and many more things.

and of course the LRC , workplace relations etc , which the union has walked away from

Brendan Bendar · 24-03-2017 06:59PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

All these so-called left wing socialists are frauds actually. They support things like this strike but they do not suffer because of it. They don't care about some poor worker who depends on a monopoly run BE service. Of course they go to Michelin Star restaurants and live the life of the well to do selfish capitalists they are. They are an insult to both capitalists and communists alike and cannot be honest about being the former and pretend to be the latter. The unions are full of such types and they are no different to the BE management: both sides are only interested in maintaining their big jobs with all their perks. Suppose if BE goes broke: its top management team will get fine jobs somewhere else and the union men will maintain theirs as well. The losers are the people here.

Would'nt be too sure about that, maybe the "the people" have seen this as a step too far.

I detect a very hostile attitude from the public on this, much more that the two previous transport strikes .

That coupled with a praiseworthy stance by Minister Ross might indicate that O'Leary and Nooone might have bitten off more than they could chew.

They will of course try to shut the whole transport system down but hey- some bright ess on the horizon

murphaph · 24-03-2017 06:59PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

Bus Eireann has been deliberately undermined over many years with the private operators gifted the lucrative routes between urban centers and big towns driving of course on the state constructed motorway network while BE serves the social service loss making runs to small towns, villages and rural areas.

Do some homework before spouting a load of sjw rubbish. BE is handsomely rewarded for the PSO routes and it was its own fault it missed out on licences on Expressway routes.

mikeoneilly · 24-03-2017 07:00PM

I had reason to travel recently with BE for the first time in years

I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the service.The BE phoneline was excellent too.

My memory of private operators is that they were poor enough.Maybe they have improved since.

bobdasaw · 24-03-2017 07:00PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Without unions 1916 may have never happened and the Union movement allowed us to have paid weekends, public holidays and many more things.

and of course the LRC , workplace relations etc , which the union has walked away from

It is pointless attending talks when one group is dictating terms and won't concede anything and all stakeholders will not attend.

They’re striking to prevent their wages, conditions and the public transport system generally from being degraded further to pay for a crisis caused by big capital and our governments which serve their interests.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 07:02PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Would'nt be too sure about that, maybe the "the people" have seen this as a step too far.

I detect a very hostile attitude from the public on this, much more that the two previous transport strikes .

That coupled with a praiseworthy stance by Minister Ross might indicate that O'Leary and Nooone might have bitten off more than they could chew.

They will of course try to shut the whole transport system down but hey- some bright ess on the horizon

I agree, Luas was a special case as they Gov had the cover of a private company , which in effect has borne the increases ( until of course the contract for operation is renewed , and then it will be passed back to the taxpayer)

IN this case , subsidies to BE Expressway , would be expressly forbidden until EU law, and minister Ross would be directly exposed if he was to intervene

Lets stick this one out , I think the " people have this one "

bobdasaw · 24-03-2017 07:02PM

mikeoneilly wrote: »

I had reason to travel recently with BE for the first time in years

I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the service.The BE phoneline was excellent too.

My memory of private operators is that they were poor enough.Maybe they have improved since.

Was the vehicle looking in better condition or worse than privates?

mikeoneilly · 24-03-2017 07:05PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

Was the vehicle looking in better condition or worse than privates?

Don't really know

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 07:07PM

They’re striking to prevent their wages, conditions and the public transport system generally from being degraded further to pay for a crisis caused by big capital and our governments which serve their interests.

could you just argue without a copy of Das Kapital in your mouth thanks

I dont dispute the union is striking to either (a) protect existing renumeration , including unofficial overtime and (b) had already actually lodged a pay rise to BE . its clear the union has ONLY its members moolah in mind , thats clear

The issue is that BE is in effect broke, were it not a semi state , the directors would have most likely long ago called in the receivers

BE is broke because its commercial arm , BE Expressway has been bleeding losses , quite huge looses for some time

IN a normal private company , the response is to (a) go out of business or (b) cut costs

BE is saddled with an unproductive workforce, compared to private sector drivers, high wages and an excessive overtime bill as a result of the very same unproductively

BE management has no way out of this mess, which is why the unions are trying to force Shane Ross to the table .

I expect their strategy to fail, There was a clear reason why CIE was denied access too the LUAS programme , even though they did all the initial work

Del.Monte · 24-03-2017 07:14PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Again it has to be repeated that Aer Lingus had gone from strength to strength since privatisation. And if it wasn't for Eircom being privatized you wouldn't have the broadband to post your replies.

Their is no race to the bottom. It's just a laziness on people's part to not put the effort into upskilling to improve their earning potential. Certainly in the case of BE your assertion of a fair days pay for a fair days work doesn't apply because a fair day doesn't mean permanent overtime.

All we see from IE and BE a examples is the opposite of economies of scale which is where we are now.

Epic post fail. You are seriously suggesting that the privatisation of Eircom was successful?

pjohnson · 24-03-2017 07:16PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

What a load of ****. The reason that BE is in trouble is because the government has undermined their position on corridors as part of an agenda to destroy the company.

Well the drivers taking a indefinite holiday will certainly increase the income to prevent insolvency. After BE is bankrupted I wonder will these national heroes on the picket keep striking?

L1011 · 24-03-2017 07:17PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And if it wasn't for Eircom being privatized you wouldn't have the broadband to post your replies.

Telecom was one rare case of a good and well managed (if slightly dear) firm getting utterly destroyed on privatisation. Two sets of asset stripping, underinvestment, etc, etc.

Privatising Cablelink did more to push broadband as its existing ownership only cared about TV (RTE) or didn't want competiton (Telecom).

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 07:18PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

What a load of ****. The reason that BE is in trouble is because the government has undermined their position on corridors as part of an agenda to destroy the company.

The facts are as stated , BE workforce drives less hours then its competitors and is enumerated for those hours considerably more then its competitors. The net result is that in order to make up the missing hours , the same drives are then paid overtime , essentially saying them on the double to bring their productivity upto equivalent private drivers

Because of that cost ( and others) BE cant compete and is loosing money where it finds itself in direct competition with a private operator

Your solution is a return to the 70s and 80s were an inefficient CIE was propped up by denying competition , resulting in one of the worst transport companies in western europe

the answer is simple allow CIE/BE to die a natural death, we are not short of busses

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 07:19PM

L1011 wrote: »

Telecom was one rare case of a good and well managed (if slightly dear) firm getting utterly destroyed on privatisation. Two sets of asset stripping, underinvestment, etc, etc.

Privatising Cablelink did more to push broadband as its existing ownership only cared about TV (RTE) or didn't want competiton (Telecom).

TE was a joke , the `gov had no choice but to unload it, copper assets in the ground were a reducing asset and TE was bloated and inefficient

L1011 · 24-03-2017 07:21PM

BoatMad wrote: »

TE was a joke , the `gov had no choice but to unload it, copper assets in the ground were a reducing asset and TE was bloated and inefficient

TE were no different to every other fixed line operator in Europe at the time, with the exception that they had invested heavily in better backhaul and in ISDN. Its likely they'd have been quite early going with DSL also; had they not been sold off to people with no interest in investment. Was the wrong asset to sell, if they felt they had to sell something

jimmycrackcorm · 24-03-2017 07:21PM

Donal55 wrote:

Could the govt allow the goal posts to be changed so as to favour one side in a dispute? Considering that same govt has been consistent in saying that it cannot get involved one way or another since this whole issue first started.

One could argue that providing BE with subsidies in the first place is favoring those over private operators.

bobdasaw wrote:

Without unions 1916 may have never happened and the Union movement allowed us to have paid weekends, public holidays and many more things.

Unions are also responsible for thousands of people employed by Ryanair since they started and for cheap air travel.

Oh. Wait...

bobdasaw wrote:

This morning the nation had a national bus strike. Staff being cut across the country say that their jobs and services are being deliberate cut as part of a long term plan by Fine Gael and Co, to try justify privation of everything in Ireland.

The government is not deliberately trying to privatise them. They are doing it all by themselves.

You're just deflecting from the simple fact that the staff have been craving unnecessary overtime and cushy work practices, instead of adapting to reality.

pjohnson · 24-03-2017 07:23PM

bobdasaw wrote: »

It is pointless attending talks when one group is dictating terms and won't concede anything and all stakeholders will not attend.

They’re striking to prevent their wages, conditions and the public transport system generally from being degraded further to pay for a crisis caused by big capital and our governments which serve their interests.

BE have tried to hold talks with unions. That is infact the problem. The unions just want to hear "OK here's a payrise". Anything else and its to the pickets.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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