"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Tilikum · 04-03-2017 01:25AM

greenflash wrote: »

Dying out to the extent that the vast majority of the population get their children christened into the RCC so they can have a place in church controlled schools? I'm sure they couldn't care less about falling mass attendances when education is the real cash cow.

We won't be christening our kids, and that's a fact.

Dave_The_Sheep · 04-03-2017 01:27AM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Thankfully the Catholic Church is dying out.

Not fast enough.

JP Liz V1 · 04-03-2017 01:34AM

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

It must be hard for anyone alive who was in that home and who had a child now wondering what happened if their child is dead or alive

greenflash · 04-03-2017 01:50AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

A bit more superstitious nonsense is just what's needed right now.

kylith · 04-03-2017 01:56AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

No, it's not wrong. If it helps you, do it. You're doing no harm and it could well bring peace to the families.

Personally I'd be more inclined to pray for the nuns. If there is a god, and if that god is half decent then the people involved in the laundries are going to have a bitch of a time in the afterlife.

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 02:10AM

This was also on EuroNews just now.

Mrs OBumble · 04-03-2017 02:35AM

smurgen wrote: »

How is this relevant to this thread?

Do you really have to ask?

Do you really think anything has changed?

The religion may have. The ethnicity has not. Despicable is indeed the word for it.

RDM_83 again · 04-03-2017 02:55AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

It's on the front page of CNN.com, Lemonde.fr, BBC.co.uk, TheGuardian.com, ElMundo.es and quite a lot of other publications.

Bad news from other countries always sells better.

Spain-under facism the relevant time period

States- Jim Crow for most of it

France- loads of Vichy officials stayed in power after the war, hell they murdered probably 200 adults in Paris in the 50's and nobody was charged.

UK- industrial levels of child abuse on a scale close to Ireland back in the day in Rochedale all through the 2000's, papers like the Guardian softballed the story and ignored Mp's like Anne Cryer.

I am not saying this to excuse it but this has to be placed into a historic context

hinault · 04-03-2017 02:58AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 04:27AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I know A Women was in the good shepherd convent in Limerick for more than 10 Years as a Child SLAVE and what she told me shocked me than she had WASH AND IRON 100S OF NAVY TROUSERS AND NAVY JACKETS AND BLUE SHIRTS SHE MADE OUT TO ME THE LOOK LIKE GARDA UNIFORMS

and when I asked this Women how did she end up good shepherd convent she told me she had Large Family and very poor and no room in the house the lived in when the where young Children A Welfare Worker and a priest called to her home and took her away. to be A Child Slave That Lady sued the state and was settled out side the court. but to this day she dos not Trust Government Agencies as the put her in this Hell Hole.

RDM_83 again · 04-03-2017 04:41AM

hinault wrote: »

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

To be fair that may be complely accurate, if the morality rate is X where were they buried

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 04:46AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Bad news from other countries always sells better.

Spain-under facism the relevant time period

States- Jim Crow for most of it

France- loads of Vichy officials stayed in power after the war, hell they murdered probably 200 adults in Paris in the 50's and nobody was charged.

UK- industrial levels of child abuse on a scale close to Ireland back in the day in Rochedale all through the 2000's, papers like the Guardian softballed the story and ignored Mp's like Anne Cryer.

I am not saying this to excuse it but this has to be placed into a historic context

Ireland 2017 we have Fine gael government and look what was done to A HERO OF MAN SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 04:52AM

infogiver wrote: »

The parents of the children sent them to the Convents and seminaries.
There's no point now in pretending that the RCC sent around a "child catcher" van or something.
Having a child or children in Holy Orders lifted the mother in particular into a higher stratosphere then the other women.
You could die happy if you had reared a priest, and you could look down your nose at your sister or your neighbor who didn't.
Irish people were and continue to be almost horrifically snobbish. It used to be having a son a PP and now it's having all the kids at Uni.
It's only if you live somewhere other then Ireland that you realise this

It was not just that. If a family had say eight kids, and were poor, a child "given to God" was safe for life. Fed, housed, buried, and more chance for those left at home.

The srs and priests would visit every home of a Friday, getting money adn asking which of your children are you giving to God?

I met the last of one family of SEVEN, all of them priests, brs or sisters. That too was common. The dire poverty made for this.

It was not really snobbery but practicality. We can hardly imagine the utter desperation of families.

I was in rural Ireland in the 70s. Called at a farm and there was a whole gaggle of barefoot kids standing round the table, taking turns with spoons from a tin of baked beans. Their evening meal.

And of course the plan was to populate the world with priests and nuns from Ireland. That was started immediately after the famine.

And had an effect on the population size and demographics here. Took a while generation of marriageable women out of the picture and left us with a generation of crusty old bachelors.

Population is only just starting to exceed post famine levels.

Need to look far further than snobbery !l

Annasopra · 04-03-2017 04:53AM

hinault wrote: »

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

She's not wrong

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 04:54AM

greenflash wrote: »

A bit more superstitious nonsense is just what's needed right now.

Faith and love are not ever superstition. They are simply.. faith and love and a need to show that.

Old saying. "Better to light a candle than rage at the darkness."

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 04:59AM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Makes me sick, that scum organisation. The fact that people still go to their churches is just incredible. My mind f*cking boggles. Support these paedophiles and murderers. They should be burned to the ground every last Catholic organisation on this island.

That is ......stooopoid people go to mass for many reasons; there is not an organisation in this world that is pure and free of abuse.

Anger is also stoopid. Affects only you.

I know many good folk within the church who are hurting as much as you are and as much as I am. And that trust me is a huge amount.

Jesus is not the Church not is the Church Jesus.

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 05:01AM

Just to say all Nuns are not bad .there is Good Ones and sum of them have being Victims like sisters of mercy Nora Wall Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.Nora Wall Paul Wililams Sunday world libel Sunday world apology

professore · 04-03-2017 05:04AM

seamus wrote: »

Yes, of course. But the mortality rates in these homes were 2 - 3 times the national average.

In a place that was masquerading as a care home for mothers and children, a child mortality rate that's multiples of the national average can only happen if there was severe, even deliberate mistreatment of the residents.

5 times in this particular home according to RTE news. The woman who did this research did a thorough and fantastic job.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:06AM

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

Remember the nuns were young women from poor families with little or no education and they had any emotion knocked out of them in the novitiate by harridans there.
The dire poverty of their families sent them to the convents. Not vocation as we know it.

And Holy Obedience when misused and abused is a powerful weapon.

And Sr who objected was shunned or cast out ie they were abused massively. And if they got thrown out?
Nowhere to go excpt the streets

professore · 04-03-2017 05:07AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Ireland 2017 we have Fine gael government and look what was done to A HERO OF MAN SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE

If you think any other party would have done anything differently then you are sadly mistaken.

professore · 04-03-2017 05:10AM

smurgen wrote: »

And some posters here trying to pass it off as a storm in a tea cup.

It's dreadful.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:11AM

jimgoose wrote: »

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

Oh very civilised! Very adult! NOT! As bad as them .

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:12AM

juno10353 wrote: »

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

It is the neglect . And if there was any violence etc. and what is on the death certs too.

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 05:13AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Just to say all Nuns are not bad .there is Good Ones and sum of them have being Victims like sisters of mercy Nora Wall Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.Nora Wall Paul Wililams Sunday world libel Sunday world apology

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:15AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

No, you are wrong in the balance of what you say here. Itis so hard for modern folk to understand the sheer power the Church had then. They owned and ran all the schools, all the hospitals etc; they ran Ireland. Had total power here. Irish folk would absorb the gossip as many did. They were not allowed to by the Church.

And it will com out now, the scale of the lucrative baby trafficking.

Too much money too much power and no one stood a chance against them.

Zebra3 · 04-03-2017 05:17AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Remember the nuns were young women from poor families with little or no education and they had any emotion knocked out of them in the novitiate by harridans there.
The dire poverty of their families sent them to the convents. Not vocation as we know it.

And Holy Obedience when misused and abused is a powerful weapon.

And Sr who objected was shunned or cast out ie they were abused massively. And if they got thrown out?
Nowhere to go excpt the streets

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. My aunt is a nun. Her father paid a small fortune for her to become one, as in a direct payment to the convent. It was her decision to go and hers alone.

If she'd been thrown out she knew she had a family to return to.

Stop excusing those who took part in violent acts of terror. It's disgusting.

professore · 04-03-2017 05:18AM

Cdosrun wrote: »

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

I am sure there were plenty of good Nazis too.

professore · 04-03-2017 05:20AM

Graces7 wrote: »

No, you are wrong in the balance of what you say here. Itis so hard for modern folk to understand the sheer power the Church had then. They owned and ran all the schools, all the hospitals etc; they ran Ireland. Had total power here. Irish folk would absorb the gossip as many did. They were not allowed to by the Church.

And it will com out now, the scale of the lucrative baby trafficking.

Too much money too much power and no one stood a chance against them.

I have to agree. It would be like blaming the citizens of North Korea for their predicament. The church ruled with an iron fist.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:21AM

pilly wrote: »

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

They were taken out at night and the locals did the actual burying, the kind ones who kept the garden safe but who could not stand against. Sometimes the older boys were involved by order of the nuns and someitmes a priest attended. There are accounts; will find them again

The sheer scale of this.
Sure we can condemn the local folk but given how thinsg were?One localman who had been campaigning to get this sorted died only weeks before the story first broke.

Bessborough in Cork; the gardeners and those who buried the babies put nails in the wall to show where each baby was buried; a code.

And they prayed; at Tuam,at Bessborough at all the homes. And ther were many

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:22AM

pilly wrote: »

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

Oh by the way,if you are apportioning blame? WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERs Of THESE BABIES?

Where were they?

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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