Dublin congestion charge - would it help? [see post #7]

afatbollix · 04-12-2016 7:43pm #1

I'd support a congestion charge for the city centre. Its about time something drastic was done to try help the crisis that is happening in Dublin.

Saying that in London it has just opened the door to the rich who don't care about £20 a day and £15 a hour on parking. I'd support it only if the money from it went straight to public transport in Dublin as it does in London because it goes to the mayor not central government.

marno21 · 04-12-2016 8:24pm

afatbollix wrote: »

I'd support a congestion charge for the city centre. Saying that in London it has just opened the door to the rich who don't care about £20 a day and £15 a hour on parking. I'd support it only if the money from it went straight to public transport in Dublin as it does in London because it goes to the mayor not central government.

Congestion charge is a great idea when there's a viable alternative to get people into and out of the city centre.

At present, the rail network isn't able to supply the capacity needed to provide a viable alternative.

marno21 · 04-12-2016 8:45pm

Car commuters don't want to get out of their cars and use a bus. Buses are ****e.

The PPT is making life easier for Kildare commuters but is of no use to Kildare commuters going to anywhere other than the city centre. Dublin still has a mess of transport routes, but no coherent network.

L1011 · 05-12-2016 9:28am

Deedsie wrote: »

The toll is already there. People talking about DCC removing the toll are being unrealistic. There is plenty of room on buses and trains coming into Dublin. If you want to use your car in Dublin City Centre you should be charged for the privilege.

Buses and train are at crush capacity at peak hours. I don't want to even imagine what you think full is if you think that's "plenty of room"!

Sam Russell · 05-12-2016 11:20am

I have started a new thread as there appears to be a lot of discussion on other threads about this topic.

A congestion charge has been suggested for traffic within the canals. How would this work? How much would the charge need to be to work? Would restricting parking within the canals be an alternative (such as a maximum stay before heavy charges apply)?

L1011 · 05-12-2016 12:33pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Some buses and some trains are at crush capacity no arguments here but they are not all jammed. PPT route is open two weeks and there is still plenty of room. OAP and free public transport users travelling for free at peak times could be reviewed to create extra space?

The ones that are jammed are the ones that go along high traffic routes - and have traffic jams.

That there is room on one newly opened rail route means nothing.

You cannot use stick when there is no carrot. There is no public transport capacity to take extra mode-shifters in many areas.

Removing FT passes at peak will have minimal impact. Extra capacity is needed above and beyond everything else - and nothing else will have the impact it would give.

marno21 · 05-12-2016 12:52pm

L1011 wrote: »

The ones that are jammed are the ones that go along high traffic routes - and have traffic jams.

That there is room on one newly opened rail route means nothing.

You cannot use stick when there is no carrot. There is no public transport capacity to take extra mode-shifters in many areas.

Removing FT passes at peak will have minimal impact. Extra capacity is needed above and beyond everything else - and nothing else will have the impact it would give.

Nail on the head here.

Trains on the Maynooth and Northern lines appear to be full to bursting at peak times going by irishrail's Twitter. There needs to be major expansion of the DART Network before congestion charges can be considered.

LeinsterDub · 05-12-2016 3:07pm

Deedsie wrote: »

In saying that, i occasionally get the bus along the N11... there was always space on the bus if I timed it right. From 7:30 to 09:00 it's busy but it is basically empty after that.

It's almost like most of people need to go somewhere between those times and don't have the option to go later.

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 5:32pm

People complaining that buses are ****e and that we need to invest in rail need to accept it's going to take time for DART Underground, DART Expansion, Luas extensions, metro north. Reducing the number of cars between the canals in Dublin, in Cork, Limerick, Galway etc needs to be prioritised... buses are the only option while we are waiting for rail projects.

Irelands traffic congestion is caused solely by single occupant private cars. We have spent billions on roads... billions. And the problem is just getting worse. Do people really not see this?

I dont know if any more white elephant mega expensive rural motorways are planned, but anything that isnt the the m20 or galway bypass, should be off the agenda for years!

Get on with sorting out the issues once and for all, rail needs several billion. bus in the short term like you say Deedsie, because as crap as it is, what is the short term alternative...

cnocbui · 05-12-2016 5:37pm

afatbollix wrote: »

I'd support a congestion charge for the city centre. Saying that in London it has just opened the door to the rich who don't care about £20 a day and £15 a hour on parking. I'd support it only if the money from it went straight to public transport in Dublin as it does in London because it goes to the mayor not central government.

Would this congestion charge stop you from driving?

Sam Russell · 05-12-2016 5:42pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Would this congestion charge stop you from driving?

Well, the East Link toll certainly diverts cars over the Beckett Bridge, so yes there will be a change in driver behaviour. Perhaps drivers will park before the canal and walk or take PT all the way.

Either would be a win.

The congestion charge would be best used to further subsidise the PT, preferably with lower fares.

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 5:45pm

the east link toll should be scrapped immediately! anything that is a quick gain should be done at this stage... getting over macken street bridge is an absolute joke...

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 5:50pm

Why would anyone want to sit in a car on hour long tailbacks. Provide satellite park and ride facilities outside Dublin. Bus people in and out to the employment centres. It's not that complicated is it?

I am just back from london, I love getting the underground and train around the place, its great. In dublin, you wont get me out of the car, not with the current shambles. there is no proper "network" here, with DU and MN, youd be a good bit of the way there though...

I agree with the satellite centres to employment centres, should one of the lanes on the m50 and n7 then become a public transport only lane during peak hours? to get them out of the car, you will need to give them a good time saving...

Sam Russell · 05-12-2016 6:26pm

Deedsie wrote: »

You could have a timed bus gate along the N7 from Nass for example from 07:00 to 09:00, would be a great advertising for a public transport alternative.

Can the buses not use the SLOW lane? - as no-one else appears to anytime I'm on it (mind you, I do not use it at peak times)

L1011 · 05-12-2016 6:49pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Like students going to schools? Oh no sure there parents drive them? None of them are among public transport routes I am sure.

Because there's no public transport capacity and school bags have become too heavy to safely cycle with.

afatbollix · 05-12-2016 8:55pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Would this congestion charge stop you from driving?

I have lived in London for 6 years and I have never driven into central London. It would be easier for me to drive to work but I wouldn't even think about it. £9 on a travel card each day versus £25 congestion charge.

No pussy footing around set it high from the start.

I used to think you couldn't as the Public transport isn't there yet but its time something drastic was done.

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 9:31pm

thats the thing though, who in there right mind would drive into central london? 1. you have a fantastic railed based transport network and 2. the cost of driving into central london

for many in dublin you have the opposite situation, cheap to drive and logistics of getting anwhere other than "an lar" mean who in their right minds would ditch the car?

L1011 · 05-12-2016 10:04pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I wonder do the department of Education and the department of transport know each other's phone numbers? You could solve another problem there. Two birds with one one stone. Children's backs and Dublin's traffic congestion improved in one fell swoop.

With what cash, buses and drivers?

Middle Man · 08-12-2016 9:56pm

afatbollix wrote: »

I'd support a congestion charge for the city centre. Its about time something drastic was done to try help the crisis that is happening in Dublin.

Saying that in London it has just opened the door to the rich who don't care about £20 a day and £15 a hour on parking. I'd support it only if the money from it went straight to public transport in Dublin as it does in London because it goes to the mayor not central government.

Only if the money goes straight into rail investment - that includes Luas. If such money goes into cycling, I'd be livid to say the least. I would not want to see my money going towards the short term benefit of a few.

Sam Russell · 09-12-2016 1:02am

Mod: can we keep to the topic of congestion charge. No swipes at cyclists.

aliveandkicking · 09-12-2016 3:46am

I don't think Dublin is ready for a full blown congestion charge nor do we have the public transport infrastructure or capacity to justify such a move.

However I do believe a halfway house measure like banning or having a congestion charge for all single occupancy vehicles between the canals at peak hours would be a good idea and would have a positive effect on traffic levels. It wouldn't prevent people driving to work but it would force them to car pool thus reducing the overall number of vehicles through the city centre.

Middle Man · 10-12-2016 4:01pm

aliveandkicking wrote: »

I don't think Dublin is ready for a full blown congestion charge nor do we have the public transport infrastructure or capacity to justify such a move.

However I do believe a halfway house measure like banning or having a congestion charge for all single occupancy vehicles between the canals at peak hours would be a good idea and would have a positive effect on traffic levels. It wouldn't prevent people driving to work but it would force them to car pool thus reducing the overall number of vehicles through the city centre.

Another idea would be to upgrade the R148 (former N4) into the city to a managed motorway similar to that in the Dublin Port Tunnel - such is an effective public transport route during rush hour - when I had to use express buses into town in the aftermath of the Malahide Rail Viaduct collapse, the tunnel worked very well for both inbound and outbound bus services that I used. The toll pricing structure strongly discourages car journeys inbound during the AM rush and outbound during the PM rush. If the Kennelsfort flyover at Palmerston was implemented, the old Lucan Road reconstructed across the M50 and a short parallel road built to link up the old road sections in Palmerston and Chapelizod, a managed motorway (80kph speed limit) from the M50 to Con Colbert Road might be possible using electronic tolling with a pricing policy similar to that of the Dublin Port Tunnel - that shouldn't take too long to implement if the political will is there. Of course, buses would go free in the hope that transport companies would seize upon the opportunity to set up efficient bus routes via this motorway. However, such a relatively low cost scheme would not absolve the government in relation to the DART Inter-connector - this line is needed like yesterday.

marno21 · 10-12-2016 4:30pm

1. Build DART Underground, Metro North and the DART Expansion plan, meanwhile removing ALL level crossings inside Maynooth, Balbriggan, Hazelhatch and Greystones, to facilitate high frequency and less speed restrictions. This is now the "alternative".

2. Upgrade the M1, N4, N7 & N11 to 3 lanes in either direction. Have a peak time congestion charge on using these roads at peak times.

Now you have 2 options.

Use the train. Or commute by car and pay the toll. The toll, like the DPT, can be paid if you want the luxury of the car commute. If you don't, there's a perfectly fine train running too.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2016 4:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

1. Build DART Underground, Metro North and the DART Expansion plan, meanwhile removing ALL level crossings inside Maynooth, Balbriggan, Hazelhatch and Greystones, to facilitate high frequency and less speed restrictions. This is now the "alternative".

2. Upgrade the M1, N4, N7 & N11 to 3 lanes in either direction. Have a peak time congestion charge on using these roads at peak times.

Now you have 2 options.

Use the train. Or commute by car and pay the toll. The toll, like the DPT, can be paid if you want the luxury of the car commute. If you don't, there's a perfectly fine train running too.

Option 3.

Levy all private off street parking spaces within the canals that are used for all day parking. [Residents parking would excluded]. If you cannot park, you cannot commute by car.

newacc2015 · 10-12-2016 4:45pm

I dont see how the congestion charge would be useful. Most people driving into the City at peak, dont actually work there. They are driving through Dublin City to get to the opposite side. There are office blocks in Dublin City with thousands of workers in them with a handful of spaces. One of the REITs has built a 120,000 sq foot office block with about a dozen spaces.

The problem with Dublin is that takes too long to get across the city on public transport. I took a bus to Dundrum during the week. If I drove I would have done it in 20 mins max. It took me nearly 90 mins on the bus. Why would I take the bus versus driving?

Owning a car is really expensive in this country. If there was a cheaper and as time efficient mode of transport like the bus, people would take the bus. But if people would rather pay €3-6k per year to own a car versus €1320 for an annual bus ticket. Making driving in the city more expensive probably wont stop people doing it. Making getting across the city faster will stop people driving into the city.

The worst congestion in the city is generally around Glasnevin/Drumcondra/Phisboro/Cabra according to Google maps. Where there also is no efficient public transport like the DART/Luas. A congestion charge would only be punishing the residents of areas where TDs have decided not to invest in decent public transport.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2016 5:00pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

The worst congestion in the city is generally around Glasnevin/Drumcondra/Phisboro/Cabra according to Google maps. Where there also is no efficient public transport like the DART/Luas. A congestion charge would only be punishing the residents of areas where TDs have decided not to invest in decent public transport.

Phibsboro/Cabra are getting the Luas BXD line. Drumcondra already has the PPT and Maynooth lines, and would be the expected route for MN - just not yet. Dart Underground would allow more trains (possibly Dart) on the Maynooth line.

cravings · 10-12-2016 5:47pm

how do you see this working with commercial vehicles?

would the congestion charge be a charge on every single incident of entering the city, or would it buy you a 24 hour pass or similar?

would the charge be in place 24 / 7?

just curious how people are seeing this implemented.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2016 7:36pm

I think the congestion charge could apply for the hours of 7am to 10 am M-F.

However, it is parking that commuters be car need. I think all day parking should also be hit with a levy, maybe with parking over 3 hrs being made much more expensive.

markpb · 10-12-2016 7:44pm

Sam Russell wrote:

Phibsboro/Cabra are getting the Luas BXD line. Drumcondra already has the PPT and Maynooth lines, and would be the expected route for MN - just not yet. Dart Underground would allow more trains (possibly Dart) on the Maynooth line.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves!

PPT and the Maynooth line will have very little impact on travel patterns in Drumcondra over the next decade. Those lines are targeted at solving a single problem: getting office people from the western suburbs to the city centre and Dart line and home again. That's absolutely fine, it's a good market to target for suburban rail operations. It would be a fallacy to suggest that people living in Drumcondra will use either of those lines to get anywhere. The reasons for that should be obvious.

Metro North is unlikely to commence operations in the next two decades and I suspect Dart Underground is even further away.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2016 8:29pm

markpb wrote: »

Let's not get ahead of ourselves!

PPT and the Maynooth line will have very little impact on travel patterns in Drumcondra over the next decade. Those lines are targeted at solving a single problem: getting office people from the western suburbs to the city centre and Dart line and home again. That's absolutely fine, it's a good market to target for suburban rail operations. It would be a fallacy to suggest that people living in Drumcondra will use either of those lines to get anywhere. The reasons for that should be obvious.

Metro North is unlikely to commence operations in the next two decades and I suspect Dart Underground is even further away.

Where are people going from Drumcondra? - it is already close to the CC. The PPT trains go to GCD - handy for Google. Walking distance to OCS. Buses galore. Where else do you want to go?

Admittedly we will be waiting a long time for MN or DU - a long long time.

marno21 · 10-12-2016 10:22pm

Sam Russell,

If people aren't allowed commute by car, how are they meant to commute? Most people who sit in their car for 4 hours a day don't have a choice. There is nowhere for them to live in Dublin, and the PT is pathetic.

And please don't start about buses. We need to move on from buses.

Dublin congestion charge - would it help? [see post #7]

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