The Dons

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 12:16PM #1

Although a few weeks late, I just thought I'd create a thread to say how great it was to see Wimbledon pass out MK Dons in the footballing pyramid for the first time since their reformation. I can only imagine how sweet it was for their fans, even though most would claim not to recognise the existence of the horrible Franchise FC. If the season continues to go the way its going, the Dons could be looking at a promotion, while MK could be getting relegated. It's hard to comprehend the magnitude of what Wimbledon have achieved by starting from scratch and catching a heavily funded MK and passing them out, yet in a year the Dons could potentially be 2 divisions ahead. The stuff of fairy tales, but alas, better not get too far ahead of ourselves

I've looked at MK message boards over the years and their fans really did look sneeringly down their nose on AFC Wimbledon as a mickey mouse outfit and never really gave them any respect. So it must really hurt those MK supporters to see Wimbledon fly by them in the footballing pyramid. And the worst club in England should do the honorable thing and drop "Dons" from their name, but it seems the MK fans don't want to just so they can lord it over the Wimbledon fans. Just a horrible club from the corporate top right down to the fans.

Anyone know much about AFC Wimbledon in terms of the more intricate details of their existence? For example, when MK were forced to hand Wimbledon FC's trophies and properties back to Merton Borough, were the trophies originally handed to AFC Wimbledon who decided to put them in a library in Merton, or was it done so AFC Wimbledon purposefully couldn't get their hands on the trophies? If MK were forced to give up Wimbledon FC's history and are only recognised as a new club since 2004, will AFC ever be allowed to revert to the "Wimbledon FC" name and use the old badge and be seen as an official continuity since the properties of Wimbledon FC are now defunct and not owned by MK? Or is there even a legal road they can go down to do that? And what is the story with the dog track that they want to knock down and move into in Merton? That still up in the air too?

All in all, great to see the Wombles flying high again

30-10-2016 12:28PM

Don't understand the hate towards MK Dons.

Owners did what they had to do to save the club, and as a result a lot of folks on the MK area are watching a local 3rd tier club rather than following bigger EPL clubs.

Well done to AFC too, they have really excede expectations.

By the way AFC had no rights to Wimbledons trophies. They are a complety separate club

eagle eye · 30-10-2016 12:28PM

I'm delighted to see AFC Wimbledon going well for their fans who must have been distraught when they lost their club.

Funny how things change over time though. Back in the day Wimbledon FC were the Tony Pulis' Stoke of the first division. A lot of people hated their long ball tactics and the hard man approach of a lot of their players. Personally I didn't mind it because as far as I'm concerned you use whatever makes you the most successful you can be.

It's 12 years since MK Dons came into existence and they are now an established club in their own right so I don't wish any ill will on them at all.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 30-10-2016 12:41PM

Wimbledon was dead as a club.They would have been kicked out of the league and had to start at the bottom again so they didn't lose out by what MK Dons did.

It was wrong for the new club to claim the honors of the old club at the start of their existence but they didn't do much wrong apart from that.

Considering Milton Keynes is a manufactured town and didn't grow up organically it's fitting it's football club was created in the same manner.

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 12:45PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Don't understand the hate towards MK Dons

Ye me either. They only stole a club and destroyed everything about it

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Owners did what they had to do to save the club, and as a result a lot of folks on the MK area are watching a local 3rd tier club rather than following bigger EPL clubs.

Technically they saved it, but in reality they destroyed it. Who was the attempted "save" for? The fans surely? What is the point in "saving" it, if you are going to tear it away from the fans? I'm sure the Wimbledon FC fans would rather have seen it go into liquidation as Wimbledon FC, than see a mutilated version of the club 150 miles up the road prance around with their history and trophies

The "local" MK fans could have supported the non league MK football team and got them promoted into the football league if they were that bothered.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

By the way AFC had no rights to Wimbledons trophies.

Of course they do. Players come and go, so do managers and chairman's. The fans stay they same. The same fans support AFC. The trophies belong to them

eagle eye · 30-10-2016 01:21PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Ye me either. They only stole a club and destroyed everything about it

They? Pete Winkelman and a couple of supermarket chains were responsible for moving the club.

It's not like the new fans of MK Dons had anything to do with it. They were given the opportunity to attend matches near their homes and they took that opportunity and like it. There is a good atmosphere at MK Dons games these days.

All is well that ends well. AFC Wimbledon will get their history back at some stage in the near future and even if they don't officially get it back you can be sure that their fans, neutral fans and the media will give it to them anyways.

There is nothing to hate here anymore but you just seem to want to hate somebody for some reason.

Skylinehead · 30-10-2016 01:41PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Of course they do. Players come and go, so do managers and chairman's. The fans stay they same. The same fans support AFC. The trophies belong to them

Nope, trophies belong to clubs. Or are you saying I can just walk into the Emirates and take the gold Premiership trophy?

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 02:03PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Nope, trophies belong to clubs. Or are you saying I can just walk into the Emirates and take the gold Premiership trophy?

The fanbase is the club. Without it there is no club. The same fanbase makes up Wimbledon FC and AFC Wimbledon. They are the rightful heirs to the trophies. I guess you'll always have someone trying to play the devils advocate for the sake of it though. Anyway, in the meantime I found out the answer to that question anyway. AFC Wimbledon do own Wimbledon FC's trophies. Merton Borough transfered them to AFC Wimbledon. AFC put some on display in a library in Merton and some in a cabinet in their home ground along with AFC Wimbledon trophies. So I guess Wimbledon FC's trophies do belong to AFC Wimbledon

Skylinehead · 30-10-2016 02:09PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The fanbase is the club. Without it there is no club. The same fanbase makes up Wimbledon FC and AFC Wimbledon. They are the rightful heirs to the trophies. I guess you'll always have someone trying to play the devils advocate for the sake of it though. Anyway, in the meantime I found out the answer to that question anyway. AFC Wimbledon do own Wimbledon FC's trophies. Merton Borough transfered them to AFC Wimbledon. AFC put some on display in a library in Merton and some in a cabinet in their home ground along with AFC Wimbledon trophies. So I guess Wimbledon FC's trophies do belong to AFC Wimbledon

I'm not saying that MK Dons should get them, they're obviously a different club in a different town now. But unless the fans buy the club (I see that happened in Motherwell) then the sentimental stuff about fans being the club and owning trophies just doesn't work in real life.

Nice that AFC got the trophies all the same.

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 02:11PM

eagle eye wrote: »

They? Pete Winkelman and a couple of supermarket chains were responsible for moving the club.

It's not like the new fans of MK Dons had anything to do with it. They were given the opportunity to attend matches near their homes and they took that opportunity and like it. There is a good atmosphere at MK Dons games these days.

Yes "they". Maybe the MK fans personally didn't do it, but they fully supported and support the move if their message boards, chants and attitute is anything to go by, aswell as the reception they gave AFC Wimbledon when they played plus the fact it's the fans who won't drop the "Dons" tag. They are just as culpable by association, and would be the first one's playing the poor mouth if the same happened to them. Horrible club and fans

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 02:18PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

I'm not saying that MK Dons should get them, they're obviously a different club in a different town now. But unless the fans buy the club (I see that happened in Motherwell) then the sentimental stuff about fans being the club and owning trophies just doesn't work in real life.

Nice that AFC got the trophies all the same.

We'll agree to differ so. I'd say in any scenario where a football entity is ended, the fans and those who make up their spiritual heirs would generally have an extremely strong case down any legal route in winning the trophies. I'd say this is because the sentimental viewpoint of the fans being the club does hold weight. As much as those with a cynical viewpoint try and make out, a football club isn't just another business.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 30-10-2016 02:21PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yes "they". Maybe the MK fans personally didn't do it, but they fully supported and support the move if their message boards are anything to go by, aswell as the reception they gave AFC Wimbledon when they played plus the fact it's the fans who won't drop the "Dons" tag. They are just as culpable by association, and would be the first one's playing the poor mouth if the same happened to them. Horrible club and fans

The Don's tag kept in order to recognize where the club came from, if anything it's a tribute to the former club not a dig at them.

Richard Hillman · 30-10-2016 02:22PM

Both entities are so much better off because of the move and restart. It was a great success for both parties.

The only people that seem to still have a beef with it are ultra-conservative outsiders.

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 02:25PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The Don's tag kept in order to recognize where the club came from, if anything it's a tribute to the former club not a dig at them.

The club chose to accept it's history started in 2004 so they should therefore drop the "Dons" tag. They are not from WimbleDON and now have no affiliation to the place and neither does the club, so they have no business using it. They know it antagonises the Wimbledon fans, yet choose to keep it for that very reason

The Golden Miller · 30-10-2016 02:30PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The only people that seem to still have a beef with it are ultra-conservative outsiders.

You think? Why do most Wimbledon fans claim not to acknowledge Franchise FC's existence if they are all cool with it?

Corholio · 30-10-2016 05:09PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Both entities are so much better off because of the move and restart. It was a great success for both parties.

The only people that seem to still have a beef with it are ultra-conservative outsiders.

That's not true. Even Winkelman himself has said the deal was wrong and that the owners of Wimbledon at the time were wrong to do it also. It was an independent FA panel that sanctioned the move, AFC Wimbledon was formed on the back of that decision. Any 'success' is off the back of something that never should have happened in the first place. That's not even mentioning his deal with Asda etc. in Milton Keynes. The club died because of the outrageous decision and Winkelman's ability to persuade the panel to go for this horrible deal. It's easy to say it's all worked out when time has passed but there's plenty out there who see what happened for exactly what it was.

dan1895 · 30-10-2016 06:23PM

The fixture between these two in either the Johnstones Paint Trophy or the League Cup led to the timeless chant of "where were you when you were us?" From the Wimbledon fans.

thebaz · 30-10-2016 06:48PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And the worst club in England should do the honorable thing and drop "Dons" from their name, but it seems the MK fans don't want to just so they can lord it over the Wimbledon fans. Just a horrible club from the corporate top right down to the fans.

would not see MK Dons as worst club in England - however that is defined - some might think Milwall are , some may find Leeds the worst run, some may think current Hull regime is - depends on your perspective , clubs have moved before , foreign owners have arrived, some have been good , some have been bad - depends on your perspective - but , I have many things I'd rather hate than MK Dons

mikeym · 30-10-2016 07:13PM

The relocation and the renaming of Wimbledon FC was a huge mistake and wont ever happen again.

It wasnt a success they robbed a club from the Wimbledon fans.

Fair play to those who setup AFC Wimbledon and MK Dons to me is a plastic club with no history.

30-10-2016 09:22PM

mikeym wrote: »

The relocation and the renaming of Wimbledon FC was a huge mistake and wont ever happen again.

It wasnt a success they robbed a club from the Wimbledon fans.

Fair play to those who setup AFC Wimbledon and MK Dons to me is a plastic club with no history.

People tend to forget what Wimbledon FC were like.

They were a small non league team who had a meteoric rise up the leagues between the late 70s and late 80s.

They played in a tiny ground called Plough Lane that was fine until the Taylor Report came out, it was never going to be good enough for the new world order.

In 1991 then started a ground share with Palace that never ended. They tried to get back to their traditional area but failed numerous times, and all the the time the crowds dwindled and dwindled.

Had things stayed the way they were they wouybe playing football at a level well south of what AFC and MK are now.

AFC have been granted planning permission for 11k stadium at the Wimbledon dog track, with permission to expand to 22k, I hope it works out for them, if it does not they could fond themselves in the very same position as Wimbledon FC were in their hey day.

Paully D · 30-10-2016 10:06PM

Anyone with in-depth knowledge of the Wimbledon -> MK Dons situation want to give a breakdown of what actually happened back then?

I know that they couldn't seem to find a suitable location/site for a ground and subsequently moved to Milton Keynes, but is that the crux of the matter? I'm sure it is far less simplistic than that. Why did the independent commission give them permission to relocate despite opposition from seemingly everyone? Did many fans keep supporting the team in their move to Milton Keynes? MK Dons have averaged anywhere between 8,000-13,000 over the years - where have all these fans comes from? Just local people wanting to watch live football or would they still get a lot of people from Wimbledon that would travel to their games?

Any good articles or documentaries on the topic?

Cheers.

Muff_Daddy · 30-10-2016 11:21PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Wimbledon was dead as a club.They would have been kicked out of the league and had to start at the bottom again so they didn't lose out by what MK Dons did.

It was wrong for the new club to claim the honors of the old club at the start of their existence but they didn't do much wrong apart from that.

Considering Milton Keynes is a manufactured town and didn't grow up organically it's fitting it's football club was created in the same manner.

See, this is the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Why is it fitting that they should be given a football club, just because they are a manufactured town? And who decides where in the football pyramid they should be parachuted into? It's all so arbitrary really, why should they slot into league 1? Why not premier league?

If the old Wimbledon were going to become insolvent, then logically the team who were 3rd in the conference, or the team 23rd in league two that year should be the ones replace them. Not a brand new team. If Milton Keynes are deserving of a football league club, then let them start from the bottom and work their way up, as clubs like Fleetwood, Newport and erm.......the very club they replaced in the first place did.

The cream will rise to the top, non?

thebaz · 30-10-2016 11:46PM

Paully D wrote: »

Anyone with in-depth knowledge of the Wimbledon -> MK Dons situation want to give a breakdown of what actually happened back then?

at one stage they were touted as becoming the Dublin Dons , backed by Paul McGuinness and Eamon Dunphy , if I remember rightly - they were in a mess through the 90's particularly after they got relegated , they were very badly supported in comparison to other teams, the're owner always seamed a bit dodgy, so morphing into the MK Dons was hardly the biggest crime in sport , probably saved club from total extinction.

31-10-2016 12:09AM

thebaz wrote: »

at one stage they were touted as becoming the Dublin Dons , backed by Paul McGuinness and Eamon Dunphy , if I remember rightly - they were in a mess through the 90's particularly after they got relegated , they were very badly supported in comparison to other teams, the're owner always seamed a bit dodgy, so morphing into the MK Dons was hardly the biggest crime in sport , probably saved club from total extinction.

Yes a move to Dublin was very much talked about in the mid '90s as they struggled to find a permanent solution, and the owners were dodgy even for back then, Sam Hamman was his name

Corholio · 31-10-2016 12:11AM

What's forgotten and sometimes retold differently is that saying the club was in trouble and consigned to not existing is only partly true. The bulk of the fans who 'stopped going' did so after the Independent Commission's decision to move it to Milton Keynes. They formed AFC Wimbledon just 2 days after the commissions decision. Winkelman peddled the line at the time that the fans should have bought the club and instead abandoned it, knowing full well it was only 'abandoned' when the decision to rip it from Wimbledon was already passed. Winkelman persuaded the panel that a team in Milton Keynes couldn't start from the bottom and that they needed a club currently in the league to survive, AFC Wimbledon since proving that very point wrong.

Winkelman agreed massive planning permission deals with Ikea and Asda in Milton Keynes on the condition a stadium and football club were brought there, this is the crux of his ability to persuade the commission to pass it, god knows what he said to get it done.

31-10-2016 12:13AM

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

See, this is the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Why is it fitting that they should be given a football club, just because they are a manufactured town? And who decides where in the football pyramid they should be parachuted into? It's all so arbitrary really, why should they slot into league 1? Why not premier league?

If the old Wimbledon were going to become insolvent, then logically the team who were 3rd in the conference, or the team 23rd in league two that year should be the ones replace them. Not a brand new team. If Milton Keynes are deserving of a football league club, then let them start from the bottom and work their way up, as clubs like Fleetwood, Newport and erm.......the very club they replaced in the first place did.

The cream will rise to the top, non?

But the team never became insolvent, they just moved stadium, all be it 56 miles away.

Unprecedented in England certainly, but they were the same football club.

Muff_Daddy · 31-10-2016 12:43AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But the team never became insolvent, they just moved stadium, all be it 56 miles away.

Unprecedented in England certainly, but they were the same football club.

Yes, I know what happened. I explained how arbitrary I feel that situation is in my first paragraph. Let's face it, a completely new entity took the football league status of Wimbledon F.C., it's not as simplistic as saying they moved the ground.

What I was pointing out in my second paragraph was in relation to the notion that Wimbledon were doomed, and if that were true, then logically their spot should go to the next team in the ladder.

But yeah, the fact is the club was 'rescued' by winkleman and uprooted to Milton Keynes, and now are trailing the club born out of the ashes of the heart and soul of the old wimbledon that was burned by winkleman. I mean, it's one of football's most fascinating stories it must be said.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 31-10-2016 07:07AM

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

See, this is the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Why is it fitting that they should be given a football club, just because they are a manufactured town? And who decides where in the football pyramid they should be parachuted into? It's all so arbitrary really, why should they slot into league 1? Why not premier league?

If the old Wimbledon were going to become insolvent, then logically the team who were 3rd in the conference, or the team 23rd in league two that year should be the ones replace them. Not a brand new team. If Milton Keynes are deserving of a football league club, then let them start from the bottom and work their way up, as clubs like Fleetwood, Newport and erm.......the very club they replaced in the first place did.

The cream will rise to the top, non?

I just said it was fitting because the club and town are completely manufactured and neither grew organically, there is certain symmetry about it.I didn't say it was necessarily right.

Zebra3 · 31-10-2016 08:37AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Don't understand the hate towards MK Dons.

Owners did what they had to do to save the club, and as a result a lot of folks on the MK area are watching a local 3rd tier club rather than following bigger EPL clubs.

Well done to AFC too, they have really excede expectations.

By the way AFC had no rights to Wimbledons trophies. They are a complety separate club

They didn't save the club by moving it, they destroyed the club. If you think sport is OK to be run like the American franchise system, well that's fine. But if MK wanted a football club, why not set up their own one and try to rise up the divisions instead of buying a place in the Football League?

Do all those who have no problem with what happened, would you feel ok if your club upped and left and or is just that the thousands of Wimbledon fans don't count? Not glamorous enough?

Sad.

31-10-2016 09:57AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

They didn't save the club by moving it, they destroyed the club. If you think sport is OK to be run like the American franchise system, well that's fine. But if MK wanted a football club, why not set up their own one and try to rise up the divisions instead of buying a place in the Football League?

Do all those who have no problem with what happened, would you feel ok if your club upped and left and or is just that the thousands of Wimbledon fans don't count? Not glamorous enough?

Sad.

Had Wimbledon FC stuck around South London its likely they would be back to where they were in the 70s, no league.

They had no ground and had been in Palace for over a decade.

They tried many times to get a deal done locally but none worked, whose fault that was I don't know.

Without a ground they were dead, and in 2000 they were out of the EPL so that carrot for any investor was gone too.

The only similar situation of a small market team making a rise from non league to the top flight is Wigan, but the huge difference is that Wigan had a ground and an owner that could cover the losses.

At the end of the day football is a business and the owners did what they had to do to save the business.

I'm not sure if it would happen again to be honest.
There are very few places in England not occupied by a football league team, and even the smaller clubs now have stadiums that are well fit for purpose and future proffed for expansion

31-10-2016 10:51AM

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

I mean, it's one of football's most fascinating stories it must be said.

Some English club moved somewhere?

I find it a little meh...

The Dons

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