Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Cheating in Garnerville: A shameful disgrace (***Read Mod note in first post!***)

2

Comments

  • #32
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Of course. It's not even my opinion. I believe it's in the Student Handbook.

    Instead, they all got paid, got another 5-month holiday in the safety and comfort of Garnerville, while the rest of us are out, doing.. you know... actual police work?
    Johannes_Cabal wrote: »
    In your opinion if it were only one or two students who cheated in the same manner, do you think the punishment applied would have been dismissal?


  • #33
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    Shield wrote: »
    Of course. It's not even my opinion. I believe it's in the Student Handbook.

    Instead, they all got paid, got another 5-month holiday in the safety and comfort of Garnerville, while the rest of us are out, doing.. you know... actual police work?


    Would the decision for not dismissing the recruits boil down to the fact that had pretty much completed their training coupled with the amount of money already invested in each individual?

    I can't imagine it's very cheap to train each new recruit so there must be alot of funds going to waste on the retraining of these guys for what is essentially the full course.


  • #34
    MikeOneJuliet
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭MikeOneJuliet


    I'm sure whatever decision is made the police will be criticised. Fire them and it's "a waste of money", back squad them and "you've saved corrupt officers jobs". Rock and a hard place for the chief, I'm sure the sheer number of student officers involved makes it much harder


  • #35
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    MikeOneJuliet wrote: »
    I'm sure whatever decision is made the police will be criticised. Fire them and it's "a waste of money", back squad them and "you've saved corrupt officers jobs". Rock and a hard place for the chief, I'm sure the sheer number of student officers involved makes it much harder

    I agree with you there, you can't please everyone.

    The CC, is definitely in an unenviable position.


  • #36
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    I agree with MikeOneJuliet too, but I'm sure he will agree with me on this: When you're in such a position, you do the least wrong thing. You weigh up everything, and make the least worst decision based on what happened.

    In this case, it would be easy to get in 50+ new people. The existing Student Officers are going back to square 1 anyway, but they're doing so with a tarnished reputation, and a giant question mark over their individual heads. It would have made more ethical and moral sense to get rid of those who demonstrated that they can't be trusted in a simulated environment, and replenish them with new squads who would be justifiably put on their guard from day 1.

    And where is the CC's word of thanks to the whistle-blower? Where is the commendation for upholding the highest standard of morality and ethics in the face of such adversity? Where is the standing ovation for what they had the courage to do, as their training requires? Where, in any of this, has consideration been shown for that person (from outside the College)?

    No. I thought not.

    Like I said... Garnerville: Where the collusion begins.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    PCvery1972
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭PCvery1972


    Is the investigation in cheating ALLEGATIONS concluded ??? I thought not but yet so many people including those who appear to be serving officers have already found these student officers guilty. That is a disgrace and would make me question the ability and integrity of them more so than the students officers in question.
    I would suggest the lynch mob put away their nooses away until all the facts are known.


  • #38
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    PCvery1972 wrote: »
    Is the investigation in cheating ALLEGATIONS concluded ??? I thought not but yet so many people including those who appear to be serving officers have already found these student officers guilty. That is a disgrace and would make me question the ability and integrity of them more so than the students officers in question.
    I would suggest the lynch mob put away their nooses away until all the facts are known.

    I'm pretty sure the Students admitted to what they were doing and that is part of the reason the punishment was not as severe as it could have been. According to the Belfast Telegraph the CC said the following:-

    "I considered all the information available to me including the early and fulsome acceptance of responsibility by the students concerned while acknowledging the negative impact their behaviour was likely to have on community confidence in them as individuals and the damage to the reputation of PSNI more generally."


    I would also tend to believe that the PSNI would not have taken the action of back squadding so many students without being fairly certain of their guilt.


  • #39
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    They're not ALLEGATIONS, they're confessions from all those involved, who have all admitted their guilt. The investigation is now focused on how it became so prevalent.

    I would suggest you try to keep up.
    PCvery1972 wrote: »
    Is the investigation in cheating ALLEGATIONS concluded ??? I thought not but yet so many people including those who appear to be serving officers have already found these student officers guilty. That is a disgrace and would make me question the ability and integrity of them more so than the students officers in question.
    I would suggest the lynch mob put away their nooses away until all the facts are known.


  • #40
    shanevendrell
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭shanevendrell


    In 21 weeks time George Hamilton will walk down that parade line looking into their eyes one by one, deep down knowing that they're not fit to wear the uniform on their backs.

    Regardless of cost I'm firmly in the camp that believes they should have been binned.


  • #41
    PCvery1972
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭PCvery1972


    Oh please , stop with the high drama and get a life.

    Fortunately when they do pass out their colleagues will not be as judgemental as those on here because they have been there.

    An investigation into how prevalent it is? Are we going back to Enniskillen then and including promotion exams ???


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Telegraph Road
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Telegraph Road


    Shield wrote: »
    They're not ALLEGATIONS, they're confessions from all those involved, who have all admitted their guilt. The investigation is now focused on how it became so prevalent.

    I would suggest you try to keep up.

    I would suggest you understand the facts - they did not admit guilt only knowledge of the system of memorising questions, as the majority of those going through GV did. They remain ALLEGATIONS until proven even with a confession as any investigator would understand. Trial by social media does no good for anyone.


  • #43
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    I have direct access to some of those involved. I have all the facts I need.
    Telegraph Road wrote: »
    I would suggest you understand the facts - they did not admit guilt only knowledge of the system of memorising questions, as the majority of those going through GV did. They remain ALLEGATIONS until proven even with a confession as any investigator would understand. Trial by social media does no good for anyone.


  • #44
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    PCvery1972 wrote: »
    Oh please , stop with the high drama and get a life.

    Fortunately when they do pass out their colleagues will not be as judgemental as those on here because they have been there.

    An investigation into how prevalent it is? Are we going back to Enniskillen then and including promotion exams ???
    :rolleyes:


  • #45
    Telegraph Road
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Telegraph Road


    Shield wrote: »
    I have direct access to some of those involved. I have all the facts I need.

    As do I


  • #46
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    Telegraph Road wrote: »
    I would suggest you understand the facts - they did not admit guilt only knowledge of the system of memorising questions, as the majority of those going through GV did. They remain ALLEGATIONS until proven even with a confession as any investigator would understand. Trial by social media does no good for anyone.

    I can't see how simply admitting knowledge of a system such as this would warrant disciplinary proceedings.

    I don't believe the suggestion that this has been happening in GV should have any bearing on the consequences for those students involved. They were the ones carrying out these actions and they were the ones caught out.

    Obviously there is more to it than what we are hearing in the media (social or otherwise).

    I do believe that these individuals clearly knew that what they were doing was not acceptable and were actively aiming to circumvent the assessment process involved in the student officer training programme, therefore putting themselves at a distinct advantage over their colleagues.

    Those in charge deemed that those students actions were not in keeping with the standards expected of student officers and aspiring constables.

    It just so happens to be that these guys were issued with warnings under misconduct procedures and to me that suggests a level of wrong doing and I don't believe any action would have been taking without establishing the facts.


  • #47
    MikeOneJuliet
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭MikeOneJuliet


    Johannes_Cabal wrote: »
    Telegraph Road wrote: »
    I would suggest you understand the facts - they did not admit guilt only knowledge of the system of memorising questions, as the majority of those going through GV did. They remain ALLEGATIONS until proven even with a confession as any investigator would understand. Trial by social media does no good for anyone.

    I can't see how simply admitting knowledge of a system such as this would warrant disciplinary proceedings.

    I don't believe the suggestion that this has been happening in GV should have any bearing on the consequences for those students involved. They were the ones carrying out these actions and they were the ones caught out.

    Obviously there is more to it than what we are hearing in the media (social or otherwise).

    I do believe that these individuals clearly knew that what they were doing was not acceptable and were actively aiming to circumvent the assessment process involved in the student officer training programme, therefore putting themselves at a distinct advantage over their colleagues.

    Those in charge deemed that those students actions were not in keeping with the standards expected of student officers and aspiring constables.

    It just so happens to be that these guys were issued with warnings under misconduct procedures and to me that suggests a level of wrong doing and I don't believe any action would have been taking without establishing the facts.

    Admitting knowledge of said system would surely rouse suspicion. As said above, it's a system that is known and students have been warned about it in the past. It's used to help pass re-sit examinations, which is not allowed hence they have received misconduct procedures. CC has said at best the students demonstrated poor judgement, and I'm a little surprised by the witch hunt that has ensued given there has been no official report or investigation yet. People are seemingly getting heated and taking a strong view point but I do think we need to wait for the report to be released before making our judgements


  • #48
    Momc82
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Momc82


    Should the service not be beyond reproach?
    It won't be difficult for these student officers to be identified once they are in their stations, making it difficult for them to carry out their roles with the consent reminder of their "poor judgment" .
    When they begin carrying out the role of a constable, does this not leave them open to accusations and constant scrutiny? In court they could be discredited easily.
    Surly this can only service to do more damage to the PSNI's reputation. Allowing a dangerous precedent to be set.
    I don't know all the facts, however once these allegations were made a much harder stance from the PSNI should have been taken, as it would have been in any other Government agency.
    Just My thoughts.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I'm not sure, having read a bit about this, that I understand the cheating part?
    Some candidates memorised questions? Is that it?

    Surely there's more to it?


  • #50
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    MikeOneJuliet wrote: »
    Admitting knowledge of said system would surely rouse suspicion. As said above, it's a system that is known and students have been warned about it in the past. It's used to help pass re-sit examinations, which is not allowed hence they have received misconduct procedures.

    My point regarding this was that simply admitting knowledge of this system would not have been an admission of guilt and therefore they must have admitted using this system and that is why disciplinary proceedings were taken.

    Personally I think most people here are outraged that this happened (and rightly so), not as applicants and potential officers but as members of the public who look up to police officers as those who serve our society whilst carrying out a difficult job in a difficult environment.

    I understand these guys are only human, however they have taken up a post with the understanding that it requires the highest standard of honesty and integrity, which they seemingly have not met. They used a system of dishonesty for personal gain, primarily financial (would they not have lost their jobs if failing the repeat?) this doesn't seem acceptable to me.


  • #51
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I'm not sure, having read a bit about this, that I understand the cheating part?
    Some candidates memorised questions? Is that it?

    Surely there's more to it?

    They remembered the questions and shared they amongst themselves.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Johannes_Cabal wrote: »
    They remembered the questions and shared they amongst themselves.

    OK, and did they share them with candidates who had to sit the same exam was it?


  • #53
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    OK, and did they share them with candidates who had to sit the same exam was it?

    I'm not sure, there seems to have been 2 squads involved so I think it is possible.


  • #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Johannes_Cabal wrote: »
    I'm not sure, there seems to have been 2 squads involved so I think it is possible.

    OK, seems ridiculous that they would just give out the same exam to two different sets of candidates, sitting the exam at different times though?


  • #55
    Johannes_Cabal
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Johannes_Cabal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    OK, seems ridiculous that they would just give out the same exam to two different sets of candidates, sitting the exam at different times though?

    Yeah I know.

    I'm don't know if they were the same exams, someone who has been through Ganerville could probably provide more info on this.

    If it was the same exam I think the PSNI expect students not to discuss exam questions which in theory should have prevented other students knowing the questions.

    Or they use the same exam for the resit.


  • #56
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    It's one thing to come out of an exam having memorised a question, and then sharing that question with the squad over coffee afterwards.

    It's a completely different story when scores of people collated the questions on a computer, printed them off, and handed the "cheat sheets" to all and sundry.

    The "cheat sheets" were then either passed around and discreet notes made, or copied and stored for future intakes.

    That's about as cheaty as cheating can get.


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Shield wrote: »
    It's one thing to come out of an exam having memorised a question, and then sharing that question with the squad over coffee afterwards.

    It's a completely different story when scores of people collated the questions on a computer, printed them off, and handed the "cheat sheets" to all and sundry.

    The "cheat sheets" were then either passed around and discreet notes made, or copied and stored for future intakes.

    That's about as cheaty as cheating can get.

    What?
    Really?
    It's just stupid to use the same questions over and over!
    How do they prepare if they can't see past papers ?
    Maybe I'm missing something here, am I?


  • #58
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Do you think the "Trainers" didn't know about this? Bear in mind, they're measured on pass rate and passing score. If too many people fail the exams, it looks bad for those entrusted to teach the students. If only there was a such a small pool of questions that could easily be memorised though concerted effort that could be passed from intake to intake.

    If only...
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something here, am I?


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Shield wrote: »
    Do you think the "Trainers" didn't know about this? Bear in mind, they're measured on pass rate and passing score. If too many people fail the exams, it looks bad for those entrusted to teach the students. If only there was a such a small pool of questions that could easily be memorised though concerted effort that could be passed from intake to intake.

    If only...

    Ahhh, so (maybe) collusion between trainers & candidates then.
    That would make more sense.
    I just couldn't understand that they would use the same exams over & over!

    I think I understand now


  • #60
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    There's always the element of plausible deniability from their point of view. It's when someone makes an offical statement about it that something has to be done.

    Up to that point, they were simply:

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Ahhh, so (maybe) collusion between trainers & candidates then.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    MikeOneJuliet
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭MikeOneJuliet


    Shield wrote: »
    There's always the element of plausible deniability from their point of view. It's when someone makes an offical statement about it that something has to be done.

    Up to that point, they were simply:

    \_( )_/
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Ahhh, so (maybe) collusion between trainers & candidates then.

    So are you saying that training staff are to be implicated in this somehow? Where's the suspension for their part in this then? I hope you have evidence of this (and have reported it) otherwise thats a pretty damaging claim to make as a serving officer.

    For one, we were told by our trainers that cheating in any way would be dealt with harshly and would not be tolerated. We were told time and time again sharing information on examinations would most likely result in dismissal.


Advertisement