has religion come into politics again

solice

on my way into town this morning i was listening to radio 1, they were talking about the referendum in poland on wether or not poland should join the eu. the referendum was taken over 2 days and by polish law at least 50% of the population must vote to make it legal.

however by the end of the first day something like 17% had voted, they were a long way off the 50% mark. so the following day the priests were preaching from the pulpit to go out and vote and to vote yes. even the pope got in on the act and urged all poles to go and vote, wether he said how to vote or not im not too sure.

so the people of poland went out and voted and voted to join the eu.

2 questions arise. why was there such voter apathy in the first day (this question could also reflect ireland at the moment) seeming that joining the eu could really only benefit the poles.

and the second question, the one that will either be shot down straight away or spark another debate. is it right for the church to intervene and tell people not just to vote but how to vote.

solice

decided to reply to my own post. during the build up to the last referendum on abortion i went to mass. i sat there, all holy like and listening to everything. but during the priests sermon he began to talk about the referendum. he began to preach about the evils of abortion and that it was wrong. the word hell was mentioned quite a bit.

i sat there in disbelif as the pries told everyone to vote no. i know that the church is a lobbying group aswell and they are entitled to there opinions and i am a regular church goer. but i dont think that someone who is able to reach so many people should be allowed to tell people how to vote without a voice of oppisition. no debate was had in the church, it was just one person telling us of the shame we would suffer if we voted to allow abortion.

on television, radio and most newspapers there is always two sides of an argument given, but never is there two sides given from the pulpit. ever.

as for the voter apathy, i think that everyone thought it would pass so easily that noone bothered to get up and vote

bonkey

Its the classic problem of where church and state pverlap.

I think its difficult to say that some group like the church are wrong to recommend a path to their followers in a case such as abortion. The topic itself doesnt require debate within the church...the church is against abortion, and therefore cannot support it, and would be remiss in its duties not to take such a stance.

Whether or not that is a good thing is a seperate issue, but it is - to a large extent - their job.

However, when it comes to something like membership of the EU, it is a far more difficult issue, as the topic at hand is not directly relevant to the church's teaching.

In areas like this, I do not feel it is the church's place to canvas for either side. Here, they are using their religious influence for no clear religious purpose....which I see as taking things "too far".

jc

Sparks

And when the ban on religious advertising gets lifted, it's going to get even more interesting...

Imposter

Originally posted by bonkey
However, when it comes to something like membership of the EU, it is a far more difficult issue, as the topic at hand is not directly relevant to the church's teaching.

This is true but the EU is seen as being a Christian Club and it's surely in the church's best interests to try and strengthen it's market share (I mean position:)) by using its influence to acheive its wishes.

As for the reasons for not joining the EU surely that's similar to Irish opinions for saying No to Nice. Nationalistic and other local general and political reasons/concerns are going to ensure that such an important vote on any countries future will have it's fair share of lobbyists on both sides and that a majority will not be as clearcut as many outsiders would think, and as was the case in Poland at the weekend.

Wolf

Politics and religion are inexonrably intertwined and all ways will be imho

Edit

Infact they are one in the same tbh

simu

Politics and religion are inexonrably intertwined and all ways will be imho(quote)

Not necessarily. A state should try to provide the best possible quality of life for its citizens, not at the expense of other states, of course.

Religious beliefs should be confined to the personal sphere.

Unfortunately, this is not the case in most countries at present but that dosen't mean one should give up on the idea.

aodh_rua

On the Poland thing - apparently Polish elections always see a major jump in turnout on a Sunday as people cast their ballot after Mass. Whether that's because they were incited to vote by the sermons they heard, or they did it because it was convenient, is an entirely different question.

What is more interesting is the Polish bishops attempts to ensure that there is a mention of God in the new EU constitution.

mike65

The Polish franchise of the Roman Catholic church must have had a change of heart as not even 10 years ago they were damning about the Godless EU! As for the turnout well its pretty obvious what happened, on Saturday hardly anyone bothered thier arses. Then with the turnout
so low ppl realised they better get out and vote the following day.

Mike.

solice

The Polish franchise of the Roman Catholic church

i dont like what you said there, you make it sound like a mcdonalds outlet. but thats a debate for another day.

i dont think that church and politics should be intertwined, thats like saying that the church and state are one in the same. dev gave the church a special place in our constitution but that has dwindled over time and the church is no longer and should no longer be a strong political lobbist

sceptre

Originally posted by solice
i dont like what you said there, you make it sound like a mcdonalds outlet. but thats a debate for another day.

Hmm, he's probably being sarcastic there but it is a subsidiary of an international organisation with the holders of the franchise/administrators of the local church approved by head office/pope.

i dont think that church and politics should be intertwined, thats like saying that the church and state are one in the same. dev gave the church a special place in our constitution but that has dwindled over time and the church is no longer and should no longer be a strong political lobbist

Not only has it dwindled over time but we managed to dump the "special position" through referendum in 1972. Your point on intertwining of church and politics implying that the two are the same is quite good and quite fair.

vorbis

well the church still has some relevance. What is going to far is excluding any mention of Christianity in the preamble of the constitution. Ignoring the role the church has played in european history is a denial of our heritage.

sceptre

Originally posted by vorbis
well the church still has some relevance. What is going to far is excluding any mention of Christianity in the preamble of the constitution. Ignoring the role the church has played in european history is a denial of our heritage.

So (and I'm not trying to be a smartarse here - I would like to know), what kind of reference to the church would you like in the new constitution:

An opener with "In the name of the most holy Trinity"?

A reference to "worship is due to Almighty God"?

A short reference to "the bearing that the Christian and Muslim churches have had upon the history of this continent"?

A promise that the Thirty Years War won't be restarted?

vorbis

sceptr that is sarcastic. I'm not enforcing my beliefs on anyone. The preamble details a short history of Europe. It details parts of history such as roman and greek civilisations, middle ages and the enlightenment. It makes no mention of any religious institution. Regardless of your beliefs, it is simply false to deny the influence Christianity and Islam have had on our history.
So I would go with answer 3.

sceptre

Originally posted by vorbis
sceptr that is sarcastic. I'm not enforcing my beliefs on anyone.

No it isn't to the first, never said you were to the second.

The first two options I listed should actually look very familiar.

Now, on to the option chosen. Why do you feel that a short history lesson is in order (and indeed necessary) in the preamble?

vorbis

um yes its obvious that the first 2 are the same.
As for the history part, I believe they have decided to included a short history of Europe in it. I just think its narrow minded to exclude any reference to one of the biggest influences on our history.