New IBB Product

qwertyup

Not really sure what to make of this. Just a snippet I saw in the Irish Times Business section, and I since I havent seen it mentioned here before (though I may well have missed it), I figured I might as well type it up for everyone.

Company Offers Instant Internet Access

Irish Broadband, the wireless internet firm that is owned by National Toll Roads, will launch a product that enables households to get immediate access to high-speed internet services.

The portable device, which is about the size of a closed fist, can connect households to the internet if their house is within 4km od a base station. The customer simply plugs the device into any plug socket in the house to receive broadband access instantly for their computers.

The new broadband product will cost €30 per month and offers users speeds of up to 512 kilobytes per minute (???). It will be launched next month in Tallaght. Installation will cost €120

Has anyone heard anything about this? Some things in the snippet just seem odd, like the description of the product as a box you plug straight into a socket, or the 512 per minute, though I would assume that that was a mistake.

DeVore

LOL... reporters eh?

"Jaysis they have this int0rw3b thing on computers now!"

DeV.

dahamsta

You'll take your 512k per minute and LIKE IT, SONNY! This is IRELAND, DAMMIT!

adam

MarVeL

This sounded at first like someone printing a rumour from a friend of a friend to me. I checked IBBs site and there was no mention of it on the front page or under news.

Upon checking the coverage map however I spotted a Tallaght node. I don't remember seeing a Tallaght node there before but I could be mistaken/hallucinating. Anyone know if this was always there? Better still any chance of someone in IBB confirming this?

I'll send them a mail to see if I can elicit a response. Now where did I leave those straws to clutch at

ozt9vdujny3srf

There is indeed a new tallaght node, for wireless.

SkepticOne

It's 512 kilobits per second not kilobytes ber minute. Journo got it wrong apparently.

New non-LOS wireless technology from a company called Navini Networks that they are trialling in Tallaght. I would not expect the uptake to be very high there as they already have broadband from NTL but the price is right at 30 euros a month.

El_MUERkO

Any word on the quality of this product, it sounds to good to be true. If you turn on the microwave does it start receiving bulgarian state radio's 24 hour opera marathon?

Boston

Calling it IBB your amking people think its irishbroadband.ie which it clearly isn't

LFCFan

why does everything have to be trialed in South Dublin and started there first? Is there some unwritten rule that says people from other parts of Dublin don't want broadband? Grrrr......

LFCFan

Originally posted by Boston
Calling it IBB your amking people think its irishbroadband.ie which it clearly isn't

it is irishbroadband.ie isn't it?

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Boston
Calling it IBB your amking people think its irishbroadband.ie which it clearly isn't

How do you know this, what is the web site and phone number of the other "IBB"? Claiming something without providing information will make it hard to believe.

SkepticOne

It is the same IBB (Irish Broadband) that have the transmitters on the three rock and RTE mast and elsewhere. irishbroadband.ie

I gave them a call after seeing the article in the paper. I've no idea whether the service is any good, but I would imagine that it would suit small towns with no alternative broadband. There are several with fibre rings but no DSL.

Boston

according to the other thread this is a service over power lines so i can't see how this is ibb since their service is wireless and does require line of site, but if skepticone has confirmed it that fair enough, might ring them when i get th chance, the last tiem i did i spoke to a guy for a half hour about their service spec

David C

Originally posted by Boston
according to the other thread this is a service over power lines so i can't see how this is ibb since their service is wireless and does require line of site, but if skepticone has confirmed it that fair enough, might ring them when i get th chance, the last tiem i did i spoke to a guy for a half hour about their service spec

:rolleyes:
This is how romours get started..
The newspaper article says something about "plugging in" the unit. That to me doesn't suggest that power lines will be used for anything other than powering the unit!

As far as I know, IBB are just introducing a wireless node in Tallaght, possibly a slightly different radio system than is used on the other masts.
The information really is too sketchy so far

MarVeL

Just looking over the site for Navini and it reads very well. Anyone have any idea why the chose Tallaght as opposed to some of the more deprived areas?

Urban Weigl

From their web site:

Irish Broadband, a subsidiary of NTR plc, Ireland's leading developer of private infrastructure, announced today that it will expand the existing product portfolio using wireless wide-area broadband equipment from Navini Networks, Inc. to provide much-needed broadband services to residential and small office/home office (SoHo) customers throughout the Dublin area and beyond, beginning in June. This is the third major European deployment announcement from Navini this year.

Irish Broadband selected Navini's Ripwave? system to offer users multi-megabit network speeds, a zero-install? plug-and-play modem, and unfettered broadband access anywhere in the coverage area. The always-on system provides uninterrupted broadband access in geographical areas that have been historically underserved by other broadband technologies.

Over the course of the next year, Irish Broadband plans to deploy Ripwave base stations in communities in and around the Dublin area. The company's first deployment, beginning in early June, will be in the Dublin suburb of Tallaght, a large area serving residential and small business customers. The next planned deployment is the larger residential area of North Dublin.

With the Navini Ripwave technology, Irish Broadband will be able to provide affordable broadband services to areas underserved today. Broadband has relatively little penetration in Ireland today due to the slow and capital-intensive processes involved in upgrading local exchanges and provisioning end-users. The wait for a broadband connection - if the customer is in an area with DSL coverage - is typically several weeks. However, with Navini's next-generation wireless technology, Irish Broadband can immediately and affordably deliver a modem to the customer, who can be up and running on their broadband connection on the same day.

"Ireland is woefully behind many other countries in terms of broadband penetration," said Paul Doody, managing director of Irish Broadband. "We aim to change that by 'unwiring' the local communities, bringing broadband to the rural population throughout the country."

"Irish Broadband plans to aggressively deploy the most advanced broadband technology available throughout Ireland," said Alastair Westgarth, president and CEO of Navini Networks. "Navini is proud to be associated with such a progressive organization to further our European presence."

brian_ire

if you look at the new coverage map on irishbroadband.ie you'll see a few new stations after appearing, and when u click on them they say not activated yet. do you think that these new stations are going to be of this new technology like the tallaght one. it would be a bit weird for IBB to invest money into LOS transmitters when they obviously have a cheap and better solution. on a personal front i hope the transmitter in belmont is one off these, if it is then the dark ages will be over for me.

spongebob

See Here .

Note the kit operates "in the 2.3, 2.4, 2.5/2.6 and 3.5 GHz spectrums" The modem is Cute

The only spectrum IBB can use at present is the 2.4Ghz band but they will be looking for 3.5Ghz spectrum in the new licencing round in July.

ESAT and Eircom have this latter spectrum already but not to provide 512k at €30 a month (€36.30 including VAT I suspect) services with...naah. Eircom actually has licenced spectrum in all those bands above except 2.5/2.6 the MMDS band, that would be NTL in Tallaght

The Tallaght launch may be a head to head with NTL for the BB consumer crown at €40 Euros or less.

I wonder if IBB have 'taken over' any unused Chorus spectrum in ther rush to launch?

M

Boston

according to this pdf the e30 includes vat

skrobe

"but I would imagine that it would suit small towns with no alternative broadband " skepticone
Why??? It has a radius of between 4-5 km , perfect for a city center location.......... I'm afaird Esat will have to go ***********
if they think im goina pay 50 euro when i can get it for 30, just hope the guinness one reaches rathmines;)
j

Capt'n Midnight

Thought I saw somewhere on the boards that IBB were getting 3.8GHz from Chorus...

512KB per minute - this couldn't be Eircom Wireless ISDN could it ?

Know too many people who dropped IBB in favour of LEAP .... But that was on thier older product..

Anyway if they are using 2.4GHz-2.48GHz ISM and they don't have a license to use more than 100mW then I can't see how they can offer a service 'cos one video sender could take out a large chunk of their coverage (thanks to the magic of EIRP limits).

Wireless
To offer 99.9% reliablity you need a good few dB in hand to cover fade let alone other RF inteference.

Comreg are allowing more power band and allowing only point to point links on other bands to cut down on mutual inteference.

spongebob

The cute modems appear to operate in the Wi-Fi and MMDS bands
and not in the 3.5Ghz band

IBB will never have MMDS band frequencies (they are earmarked for 3G phones in 2009 or so) so it must be a 2.4Ghz product I suspect.

Urban Weigl

I wonder what ComReg's plans are for the 2.3-2.4 Ghz spectrum. In South Korea, this has been reserved for very high speed portable broadband (Example: something that does not require a fixed antenna installation but uses a portable unit and does not require line of sight), and Navini appears to be involved in that project as well.

Edit: ENN have posted more information about this, including that it will cost 30 euros including VAT. Looks like we'll finally join other countries like France in having broadband services available, inc. Vat, for 29.99. Though it will only be available in Dublin at first.

Item is here: http://www.electricnews.net/news.html?code=9362703

spongebob

...in the past 2 years with allocations up to around 2008/10 . I can never find it on their site , drat .

Comreg are the Irish Arm of CEPT which sets EU standards thru an office in Denmark

This gives a roadmap on frequency allocations for the next 10 years or so. Comreg will then enforce that.

EG: The EU has a standard called Hiperlan which overlaps with much of the 802.11 upper 5Ghz band, but can ya get any Hiperlan kit ?

M

talla

i sent an email to IBB yesterday regarding this new service(as I live in Tallaght) and I got a reply qouting the standard instalation costs(old ones) and monthly subscription(still the same) and describing the same equipment. I have repled today giving the direct link to the press release on their website and this thread and will see what response I get. On a side note, most of the people are misguided in thinking that NTL cover the whole of Tallaght, it is only available in certain areas. Also people forget there are over 100,000 people actually living in Tallaght, and there are a huge number of businesses here, the main majority of them have only the option of obtaining leased lines off NTL for approx €10-15k a year if they require broadband. So if this product is availble in an area like Tallght, there is a chance that this could be the making of the company(as long as they promote their products) and would hopefully have a knock on effect of offering availability to other parts of Dublin and the rest of the country. Anyway please see IBB original response below:

Dear xxxx
Thank you for your enquiry. The high site in Jobstown, Tallaght is now live. We would need to organise a Line of Sight (LOS) survey to establish whether or not you have a clear signal from our transmitter. Below is some information on our pricing and service. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me by return email.
Residential Package:
Speed Installation Monthly Rental
512k €265.00 * plus VAT (€320.65 inc VAT) €40.00 plus VAT (€48.40 inc VAT)
1 Mb €265.00 * plus VAT (€320.65 inc VAT) €70.00 plus VAT (€84.70 inc VAT)
Notes:
· Service is subject to a successful line of sight test
· If PoE (Power over ethernet) is required, installation charge is €315 plus VAT (€381.15 inc VAT)
· A minimum contract term of 12 months applies
· Installation includes equipment, which remains the property of Irish Broadband
Business Package:
Speed Installation Monthly Rental
512k €365.00 plus VAT (€441.65 inc VAT) €135.00 plus VAT (€163.35 inc VAT)
1 Mb €365.00 plus VAT (€441.65 inc VAT) €250.00 plus VAT (€302.50 inc VAT)
2 Mb €365.00 plus VAT (€441.65 inc VAT) €450.00 plus VAT (€544.50 inc VAT)
Notes:
· Service is subject to a successful line of sight test
· A minimum contract term of 12 months applies
· Installation includes equipment, which remains the property of Irish Broadband
Equipment:
Equipment consists of a rooftop antenna manufactured by Stelladoradus - http://www.stelladoradus.com/2.4para.shtml# which is connected via cable to Breeze Access frequency hopping equipment http://www.alvarion.com/RunTime/Products_2020.asp?tNodeParam=9 Equipment is included in the install charge and remains the property of Irish Broadband. We can also provide a flat panel antenna if the building is high enough and which would be attached to the side of the building.
Coverage:
Our transmitters are currently placed in the following locations -
· Sandyford Industrial Estate, Dublin 18
· Three Rock Mountain, South County Dublin
· RTE, Donnybrook, Dublin 4
· ESB HQ, Fitzwilliam Street South, Dublin 2
. Guinness Gravity Bar, Dublin 8
. Tallaght, Dublin 24
We will shortly have transmitters going live at the following locations:
· Greencore (Sugar Company), St Stephens Green, Dublin 2

. Mountjoy Square, Dublin 1
We are also negotiating with property owners in Dun Laoghaire, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and a number of other areas throughout Dublin with a view to providing a service in those areas and we are hoping to have finished our site acquisition process throughout the metropolitan Dublin area by 6 months' time.
Additional services:
Irish Broadband offer a range of additional services such as firewalls, hosting, IP addresses, DNS hosting, e-mail addresses, etc.
Please do not hesitate to contact me with any queries that you may have on our products and services.
Best regards
xxxx
Irish Broadband

---

Original Message

---

From: xxxx
Sent: 03 June 2003 10:57
To: info@irishbroadband.ie
Subject: Regarding Tallaght transmitter
Hi,
I’ve been following posts on the Irelandoffline forum and broadband forum on www.boards.ie regarding a new transmitter that is going up in Tallaght. I remember reading member saying that a transmitter was going up in the Killinarden area of Tallaght? Is this the location of the transmitter?(I would be interested in this as I live in the Old Bawn area of Tallaght). Also there have been rumours that the pricing of install and monthly subscriptions have changed? Also, when would the transmitter expect to be going live? Can you provide any information on any of this?
Regards,
xxxxx

SkepticOne

Originally posted by talla
Dear xxxx
Thank you for your enquiry. The high site in Jobstown, Tallaght is now live. We would need to organise a Line of Sight (LOS) survey to establish whether or not you have a clear signal from our transmitter. Below is some information on our pricing and service. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me by return email.

This looks like a form letter and doesn't appear to have been updated with the new services. According to the newspaper article, the installation for this new trial service should be 120 euros with the monthly rental at 30. I would enquire further.

talla

yeh it does, thats why I directed them to their own press release:p

SkepticOne

I've still got a feeling that they have misunderstood what you were asking. You did not ask about new technology by Navini Networks that is due to be trialled in the Tallaght area. They just sent you info on their standard service recently extended to Tallaght or so it seems.

PiE

I sent 'em an email on Saturday specifically asking for information aboot this new Navini shindiggery and I still haven't got a response.

talla

yeh still no response in regarding to my queries and their press release

MDR

http://www.navini.com/pages/providers/index.htm

robfitz

Sorry I'm going to have to upset people about this product. We need to ask IBB and the manufacture what the range of this product is when used within European limits.

In Europe the maximum output power of a radio device plus antenna (EIRP) is 100 mW (Milli Watts) of transmit power in the 2.4 GHz band (ESTI EN 300 328).

The "MPE Predictions" document filed for the CPE shows that the maximum transmit power level of the device is 676 mW and the maximum gain of one of the included antennas is 7 dBi.

EIRP = 0.676 * 7 = 4.7 W

I'm not sure what kind of loss there is the cable and connectors, but I guess it would bring the EIRP level to under 4 Watts (US EIRP limits).

So if the device can get 4 kilometers with 4 watts of power what distance can it get with 100 mW?

Useful links:
EIRP Definition http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/eirp.htm
Information of radio power, dBi, dBm, mW conversion http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a00800e90fe.shtml
FCC CPE Filing https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=541739&fcc_id=PL6-ISM-CPE-R1
Nice power level chart http://www.destinycomp.com/tech/power.htm

spongebob

Originally posted by robfitz
Sorry I'm going to have to upset people about this product.

Rob sez it is illegal to use this in Europe, whatever about the US.

It could work in the MMDS (2.5Ghz) band if NTL 'ran' the network for them, couldn't it Rob . NTL 'own' the 2.5Ghz band in Talla but Chorus could also use it undr the expiry of the Geographical platform exclusivity rules... Chorus' attitude to regulation is that they are beyond regulation .

IBB recently hired the head Chorus Wireless BB geezer who probably told IBB so ....in order to get the job ?

Nobody other than NTL/Chorus may use that 2.5Ghz band anywhere in the country....until 2008 I think.

M

The Clown Man

I just rang them a while ago about the product and what I got was:

- They are starting roll out and tests from 3rock because they have the most control there
- They need seperate permission for the new equipment so it's not just a case of quickly installing it in the masts they already have live. A whole new rollout would have to be done.
- The modem/reciever plugs in to pick up the signal anywhere. eg your home, your garden, your office, your mother-in-law's, etc
- It is a 512/512 residential package
- It SHOULD be around €30 per month
- It should have a latency similar to adsl

Sounds good in that there is no cables or masts or anything. I didn't get too technical with the guy I was talking to because he just happened to be there and wasn't really at work.

And he said that they are trying to get it started before July but past experiences have pointed at the fact that things don't usually happen as soon as they are supposed to.

The impression I got was that they were trying to get the service up and running asap and that it would finally be a decent residential package. I was silently impressed anyway.

Just hope it hits the city centre soon...

robfitz

Much, you are right if they use the same technology in the 2.5 or 2.6 GHz band, or any other band they wouldn't have a problem. But the need to have a license from ComReg to operate in almost every other band.

2.400 - 2.4835GHz and 5.725 - 5.875GHz are two of the licensed exempt bands commonly used for 802.11b and 802.11a wireless technology.

spongebob

Comreg cannot give them a licence in the 2.5/2.6 band.

NTL and Chorus have this band allocated nationally to them for MMDS TV services

The only way I can see them 'Broadcasting' at 4 watts is if they come in 'under' Choruses licence.....somehow.

They may not Broadcast at 4W in the 2.4Ghz band where they are limited to 0.1w as you correctly stated.

NTL are hardly going to let them start a price war in Tallaght, are they?. Therefore I strongly suspect something involving Chorus here as they have an MMDS licence in North Dublin and in Wickila and Kildare.

Eircom have the 2.3Ghz band, nuff sed.

Heres a link to the modem specs FYI

M

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/default.asp?nid=100270&ctype=5
Lists Frequencies & Power levels.
(note: you may still need a license for some usages)

BTW: Rob - 7dB is actually 0.7B = 10^0.7 = 5.01
so they are using 0.767mW * 5 = 3.8Watts
So this is legal for point to point in the USA. Other legal things in the US - sub-machine guns / GMO / steroids in cattle / the death penalty / monopoly's / polygamy etc. etc.
Note: this power level is illegal even in the US for omni to omni links.

Lucent made a series of WiFi cards specifically for the EU market - they are coloured RED , this was an attempt to prevent people going over the EIRP limits.

The antenna's are 4" high give or take and do not seem to be directional ... - maybe they are using "phase array" to provide directionality (though almost every WiFi device has two antenna and diversity - so in theory could call them phase array)...

Point being - if the receivers are not directional then there is going to be a lot of clutter....

CitySickness

Sadly (for me), the online PDF manuals state that the Navini modems aren't compatible with the Mac OS. Which suggests that they have no intention of changing that situation either... *sigh*

Chaz

The Navini equipment will only be going onto the 3 Rock mast tomrrow. The equipment will be installed ready for Monday when the manufacturers and their support staff will start commisioning the site.

Only once this is complete - and beta testing has been done - will the product be officially launched - and hence the reason why the standard product is still the only product.

As for the speeds - 512/512 sounds incorrect - it should be more along 512/128 - but once again - only to be decided fully once testing is completed. The product is basically a wireless DSL service - this is the easiest to explain what the offering should be.

Mr_Man

Does anyone know if this is a directional or omnidirectional installation on 3 Rock ?

M.

qwertyup

Here's a link to Navini's white paper on Ripwave, if anyone is interested.

Ripwave White Paper

In addition, I went a-rootin' around in some of the other partner websites in an attempt to garner some more information.

From what I could make out from the Riplex Texas site, the product has a range of in and around 10 miles from the their towers. This seems to be quite long range, but then again, this could just be my ignorance on the subject making itself known.

Any informed opinions on that?

qwertyup

Going off IBB's own press release, they are aiming for a 5km range from their base stations. I found the stuff here

I'm going to try to bug them into letting me help them trial it, if I am near enough to the station.

It has got to be worth a shot.

EDIT: Just looked at Navini's press release on this, and they allude to a range of up 8 miles, or 12.8 km. Anyone know what would govern the range IBB can get? As in is the Navini max range with another product than the Ripwave one, or what? Couldn't find it out on the website

Lex_Diamonds

I hope IBB plan to deploy Ripwave on the RTE tower, its better than the current technology and more importantly, I want it

LFCFan

if this new tech is cheaper to deploy and easier to install and more people can get it quicker then it's in IBB's interest to deploy it on as many base stations as possible. The amount of people who would be in a position to install this would be phenomenal compared to other broadband services so they would clean up.

vishal

the woman on the phone from ibb said the contention ratios will be similar to that of adsl offered by eircom

spongebob

They currently use Alvarion kit. See This announcement.

M

Peanut

Some of us out towards west Dublin have been seeing some heavy interference in the 2.4Ghz band recently.

I'm not saying it's IBB testing, but I do wonder how this non-LOS service will co-exist with the many established (business and/or personal) WiFi lans in the Tallaght / Clondalkin area.

My guess is that it won't... ...if it uses 2.4Ghz and can be accessed by non-LOS from eg. within a business that has an existing WiFi LAN then there will most definitely be a conflict in the spectrum usage.

Stephen

Chaz

The IBB Ripwave equipment is yet to be powered. The cables were only being run yesterday and today - so therefore no chance that it has come from the new equipment.

spongebob

Dublinwan/Irishwan should complain while they still can.

Peanut

I guess the interference is from some other transmitter then, I don't think complaining is necessary as I can't see a non-los 2.4ghz service being viable in the long term or even medium term over that sort of extended range, due to the unlicensed nature of the frequencies.

Stephen

http://www.kildarewan.net/

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Chaz
The IBB Ripwave equipment is yet to be powered. The cables were only being run yesterday and today - so therefore no chance that it has come from the new equipment.

Since you are here Chaz, perhaps you can clarify something. I received an email last week from IBB claiming no service in the D15 area for 6 months and no mention of Navini tech.

Then today.. a co-worker just gets off the phone with IBB and claims they told him the D15 transmitter will be up and running next month (he even knew exactly where it physically is located) and the service offered will be €120 installation and €30 per month, which are the Navini numbers arent they?


So, which is correct???



Matt