[Article] Insurance group plans a 10% cut for 'points-free' drivers

Victor

It struck me that insurance companies at the moment use (a) profiling (b) past record for computing insurance, surely their argument over the last few weeks that someone with a few points is going to be safer goes against this logic.
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/767053?view=Eircomnet

Insurance group plans a 10% cut for 'points-free' drivers
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 21st May, 2003
A major motor insurer has pledged a 10 per cent reduction in the premiums paid by drivers who have no penalty points, writes Arthur Beesley, Political Reporter.

The move last night by Hibernian Insurance was combined with a threat to penalise drivers who collect more than five penalty points, by increasing their premiums by at least 10 per cent.

Hibernian said its promise to reduce premiums from November 1st was subject to a commitment by the Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, to release the National Driver File, which contains details of points levied on each motorist.

Mr Brennan's spokesman welcomed the initiative even though it falls short of the 15 per cent cut envisaged by the Minister. The development was a "big leap forward", the spokesman said.

While Mr Brennan is believed to favour the release of the file, he is waiting for specific details about the Hibernian plan before making a decision. Some 20,000 drivers have received points since the scheme was introduced last November.

The development marks a breakthrough for Mr Brennan, who was unhappy with the response from the Irish Insurance Federation to the penalty-points plan. While the points system threatens motorists with the loss of their licence, Mr Brennan had sought a response from the insurance industry to offer an additional incentive for motorists to drive safely.

Hibernian has 400,000 private motorists on its books and claims about 30 per cent of the market. The company said the reduction will be clearly marked on renewal notices as a "penalty-points discount".

The company says the average annual premium for drivers of average age of a standard family car with a significant no-claims bonus is about €800. While such a premium would fall by €80, many younger drivers with big cars pay premiums significantly in excess of €1,000. The incentive to those drivers is greater. Hibernian said the measure will apply to existing and new customers. A spokeswoman said the company had not decided whether those who received the discount in the first year would receive more discounts after that.

The reduction will not apply to Hibernian customers who have one to five penalty points. Those who have six penalty points will incur a 10 per cent loading from November, with a further 5 per cent increase levied for each subsequent penalty point.

The managing director at Hibernian, Mr Gary Owens, said the time had come for insurers to reinforce the initial success of penalty points.

"We have witnessed a reduction in road fatalities since last November and we now have to continue to drive this momentum in order to really change and improve people's behaviour and attitude on our roads," he said. However, he said accident figures this month were a matter of concern.

Victor

Brennan considers privatising speed cameras
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 21st May, 2003

The Minister for Transport is considering hiring private companies to operate speed cameras around the State.

A spokeswoman from the Department told ireland.com that "initial discussions" had taken place between Mr Brennan and the Minister for Justice Mr McDowell. She said Mr Brennan was "anxious to get the scheme up and running as soon as possible.

The two Ministers are expected to meet next week to discuss the plan.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland Mr Brennan said he believed putting contract organisations, hired by the State, in charge of speed cameras "will make a huge difference".

"The success of this will come down to enforcement by the gardai," he added.

"I believe we will make a real success of that…. just look at what the clampers have done in Dublin".

Mr Brennan also confirmed reports that Hibernian Insurance would offer a 10 per cent reduction in the premiums paid by drivers who have no penalty points. Mr Brennan described the pledge as an "act of faith" and called for other insurance companies to make a similar commitment.

Mr Brennan pointed out that from the June 1st five penalty points will be imposed for not having a car insured. From July 1st two penalty points will be imposed for not wearing a seat belt.

mike65

Who cares about logic?

Hibernian are on a winner and the whole market wil have to respond or suffer.

Mike

Victor

The dominoes start falling ....

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/773461?view=Eircomnet

Insurers wary on motor premium cuts
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 22nd May, 2003

Motor insurers appear reluctant to follow Hibernian into linking premium reductions with the penalty-points system, saying they are already passing on cheaper insurance rates as their claims performance improves, writes Siobhán Creaton, Finance Correspondent.

Hibernian, which claims to insure about 30 per cent of all Irish motorists, has said that drivers without penalty points will be entitled to a 10 per cent reduction in their motor premiums.

However, drivers who incur more than five points may end up paying more for insurance cover.

Hibernian is the first motor insurer to link premium rates with penalty points following a meeting with the Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan. It has said its commitment is subject to gaining access to the National Driver File, where details of points levied on individuals are recorded.

Yesterday the other motor insurance companies said they had already been cutting their premiums following an improvement in their claims performance but remain concerned about the rise in road deaths this month.

The Irish Insurance Federation has called for the National Driver File to be made available to all insurers, but Mr Brennan would prefer to link access with a commitment to reduce premiums by up to 15 per cent.

Allianz, which insures 200,000 motorists, said it had already introduced a 5 per cent drop in premium rates which will come into effect on June 1st and that this followed the cancellation of a 6 per cent premium increase in the previous six months.

Its group chief executive, Mr Brendan Murphy, said its pricing was based on an improvement in the number of claims and that it was not in the business of seeking some quick publicity by promising cheaper insurance on the back of the penalty-points system.

"Like many people in the insurance industry, we believe that we had sufficient laws prior to the introduction of the penalty points system.

"The penalty points have brought an improvement in driving behaviour, but unless there is enforcement this will disappear rapidly" Mr Murphy said.

Allianz said it would like to gain access to the National Driver File but would continue to determine the price of insurance based on the incidence and frequency of motorists' claims.

A spokesman for Royal Sun Alliance said a number of factors, including penalty points, and the awareness and treatment of fraudulent claims, had resulted in an improvement in claims and it was preparing to reduce premiums.

The company has said that it will be applying an average reduction of 7.5 per cent in motor premiums and that some drivers may be entitled to even bigger savings depending on their driving record.

Hibernian's managing director, Mr Gary Owens, admitted that the group could come under pressure if the upward trend in road deaths recorded in May were to continue.

"If the May trends continue we may be under pressure, but at the moment we are not looking for any further improvement on that. If this continues then we will be in a position to implement a 10 per cent cut on November 1st," he said.

mike65

Allianz, which insures 200,000 motorists, said it had already introduced a 5 per cent drop in premium rates which will come into effect on June 1st and that this followed the cancellation of a 6 per cent premium increase in the previous six months.

Ha! I'm insured with this lot and my broker said that rates were likely to increase slightly in the summer.

I like the idea of a cut by not having an increase!

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

y is this all seen as good news, all these foreign companies like allianz who, when they are traing in Germany are insureing people for 1/10th of the cost they are doing her so until they treat irish people the same as the rest of europe i dont think we should b priaising them quiet so much. The government have the power to sort it and they dont so they dont deserve praise either for releaseing statements on this or that to keep the public happy.

Silent Bob

I heard that by 2005 (I think) if an insurance company insured a person in one country of the EU for X then they would also have to offer the same premium to a person of the same 'risk' category in any other country in the EU.

Don't know how true this is...

mike65

Silent Bob, that sounds too good to be true or looking from the other direction it means Germans will be paying as much as us soon!

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

it wont work that way because people in other countries simply wouldnt put up with it, which is why this sort of stuff doesnt happen there, the insurance companies wouldnt do it because they would be too afraid of what would happen, as opposed to this country where people just put up with crap. the plain and soimple fact is that they cant justify charging so much forever and the eu will sort it out eventually, probably a bit too late for most of us cos by the time the do we'll probably all be well into our 30's and getting "reasonable" quotes anyway. How can hibernian justify giving 20% discounts to people who do a 1 day course which by a good drivers standard isnt hard, im not knocking it because i did the course but according to the companies they're losing money as is, so if this is true how can they discount by (at least) 20% .

Spunog UIE

hi jacking the thread here but

are there any countries that insure just the person and where no mention of the type of car you drive is brought up?

think that would be the best idea for say people with a 10yrs no claims (whatever you concider a proven driver) or something that the type of car etc they drive shouldn't come into it.

as regards the cuts they arn't enough imo but a starting point maybe it will improve if it gets any way competitive HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHHA

Guy:Incognito

dont no bout that but i do no that because i have a full licence i can go over to Germany and drive ANY insured car (as long as i have the owners permission of course). So if for instance my friend has a Ferrari 360 Modena and decides to let me have a go ( wishfull thining, but its closer than ill ever get over here) , as a 22yr old male with a full licence then thats fine and covered by his insurance.

Dont we just live in a great country that encourages people to stay on the dole by giving them a steady supply of free money till such a time as THEY decide they dont feel like spending their days on their couches/in the pub/bookies and also activly prevents the hardworking under 30 population from driving. The sooner we have all of the responsibility of running the country away from the utterly useless and moronic politicians in this country(i do realise that every country suffers from this but we seem to be the worst off) the better. At least we'll be able to afford to live (and drive)

Silent Bob

A 10% decrease in premiums for points free drivers, probably in association with a general 15% increase in premiums across the board :rolleyes:

Calibos

I couldn't give a **** about neutrality or the European Rapid reaction force etc etc. The sooner there is a U.S of E the better so that I can get any product or service I want from another EU state. Course, we were told the Single European Act in '92 was going to bring us all those benifits and here we are over a decade later........

NeRb666

I don't see what the big deal is here.

Hibernian have gone and got ****loads of free publicity, and in return, we *may* get 10% less ripped off than we would have anyway.

If penalty points are so damn good, then rates should naturally decrease across the board since the overall cost of insurance claims, on a nationwide basis, will go down.

ednwireland

can't wait for hibernian to rreduce my premium by 10% as the put it up by 10% this year, also seeing as we have such a cartel in this country that there is no competition as no-one will give you a cheaper quote anyway how they manage that is beyond me

Victor

Road deaths in March were back to "normal", May is more than twice last year's (37 -v- 16, but May last year was a quiet month) and one and a half times the 5-year average. October to February (and April) varied from normal down to a bit more than half. So boys (and yes it is mostly the boys and men), if you want those discounts to keep coming, slow down.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/792990?view=Eircomnet

Road behaviour improves as motorists get the point
From:The Irish Independent
Monday, 26th May, 2003
Eddie Cunningham Motoring Correspondent

THE introduction of penalty points has been a major success in changing how we drive, new research reveals.

Four-in-five motorists say they have substantially altered their behaviour on the road, according to the first study of its kind.

It also highlights how young drivers in particular have responded more than any other group to the new penalties. More than 600 motorists participated in the study - the first of this nature since the penalty points system was introduced by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan.

It was conducted by Lansdowne Market study and commissioned by Semperit Tyres. It found:

* More than half (56pc) of drivers are driving "a lot more carefully" because of the risk of penalty points.
* Almost three-in-five (27pc) admitted to changing their behaviour on the road to a certain degree.
* A hard core 17pc say they have not changed or been changed by the new system.

The figures suggest that the penalty points system has had a significant impact on how motorists behave on our roads.

The study, which was conducted nationwide and gives a cross section of all driver opinion, will encourage everyone involved with road safety.

It is also likely to raise hopes of even greater changes in behaviour when other offences are added to the penalty list.

A key section of the study deals with young drivers. As they are statistically more likely to be involved in accidents, their reaction to the system is crucial.

The news is good. The study reveals that 87pc of those between 17 and 34 claim they are driving more carefully because of penalty points.

Of these, 56pc say they are now driving "a lot more carefully".

However, it appears that more mature drivers have not altered their behaviour nearly as dramatically. The Semperit study shows that the new penalties have not influenced 22pc of drivers over 50.

There may be several reasons for this, including the reality, or misconception, that they do not need to change as drastically. There is a wide variation geographically, and particularly between urban and rural motorists, in how drivers have reacted to the new system. For example, one-in-four (25pc) Dublin motorists claimed the onset of penalty points has had no effect on their driving. Yet only 10pc of their counterparts in Connacht/Ulster admitted that.

It is speculated that the relative lack of impact on Dublin motorists may be due to congestion and the fact that it often renders speed limits irrelevant.

But the experts say the number of junctions and people in urban areas create as many accident risks as country roads. The study encapsulates a change of attitude but, for many, that needs to be bolstered by the perception of the system being enforced.

Angus Smith of Semperit Ireland said last night that the influence of penalty points on the most vulnerable driver category - young males - was particularly heartening. "We look forward to penalty points being extended to other areas, such as tyre condition," he said.

Semperit research has shown that fewer than half of drivers claim to check their tyres regularly. More than 200,000 cars on Irish roads are travelling on at least one illegal tyre.

Da Man

I just love useless statistics. Maybe those "hard core" 17% already kept to the speed limits?

I wouldn't be half-surprised if there is a weak statistical correlation between people with points and people who cause accidents. Getting points is really a completely random act that usually has very little to do with road safety, judging by the people I know who have gotten them and where they got done for speeding.

Victor

Originally posted by Stekelly
Dont we just live in a great country that encourages people to stay on the dole by giving them a steady supply of free money till such a time as THEY decide they dont feel like spending their days on their couches/in the pub/bookies and also activly

Way off topic, but we have about the lowest unemployment (4.6%) in Europe / the US.

Guy:Incognito

i was just making the point that the government wont sort out the insurance situation but will pour endless amounts of cash into the social welfare for certain people( not all, im sure some people are better off or cant afford to work due to have kids etc) to sit at home because they dont want to get a job, but again as i sed before its ok to let people away with being on the dole all the time because this country is built on the idea that if something has been around for a long time it must be good and therefore left alone, ie the insurance thing, since the boom in the economy and young people can afford cars the insurance has been high so the government dont want to get involved and rock the boat to risk losing popularity with ANYONE. Damn government, and by that i dont just mean the group of people in power at the mo because all the polititians r the same so its up to the EU to sort it out because god knows the Irish government wont, as was sed further bac up the thread, the sooner we're swallowed up by the rest of europe the better. So if i veered off the point, i didnt mean to get so political.

STaN

Originally posted by Silent Bob
A 10% decrease in premiums for points free drivers, probably in association with a general 15% increase in premiums across the board :rolleyes:

You can decrease your premium 20% more by taking their Ignition Safety course and passing it. Another 10% saying you wont drive from 11pm till 6am. Another 20% if you take and pass a 90min advanced driving course. Add the 10% points free bonus on top of that and its a huge saving.

Victor

It struck me about the way some companies were saying that drivers that had some points would be paranoid about getting anymore and would drive more safely. This is why Hibernian have their reduction for people with 5 points of less. If you have more than 5 points, you are a recidivist and are not driving more safely.

Guy:Incognito

tbh i did the ignition course and hibernian r still WAY over even the inflated price of the others plus the car has to be 1.4 or under

STaN

Originally posted by Stekelly
tbh i did the ignition course and hibernian r still WAY over even the inflated price of the others plus the car has to be 1.4 or under

AFAIK that's only for the test

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/857661?view=Eircomnet

Insurance firm to give discount for speed tracker
From:ireland.com
Monday, 9th June, 2003

One of Ireland's largest motor insurers is to offer substantial discounts to young drivers who agree to have a special speed tracking device installed in their cars.

AXA today announced the extension of Traksure, a road safety initiative piloted over the past two years.

The satellite-based system tracks speed based on the national and local speed limits, which have been electronically mapped.

The company said that both the take-up rate and the effectiveness of the device had "greatly exceeded expectations".

Young drivers using Traksure had a lower accident frequency for injury claims than non-Traksure users, it claimed.

AXA will now offer the system to drivers aged 17 years and above and says it will offer discounts of as much as 44 per cent to drivers who participate in the scheme.

For example, a 19-year-old provisional licence holder in Dublin driving a one litre car with Traksure installed will now pay €3,881 compared to the 'normal' rate €6,950, AXA said.

The reduced premiums will include the cost of the monitoring unit and all ongoing monitoring charges.

Customers using the device will also be able to trace their vehicle using the internet if it is stolen.

AXA said its system had already helped the Garda to locate and intercept a stolen vehicle and apprehend the culprits.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/958779?view=Eircomnet

Insurers call for stringent application of the law
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 2nd July, 2003

Ireland's largest insurance company Hibernian reaffirmed its yesterday that it would cut motor premiums by 10 per cent later this year for those customers who have no penalty points.

Hibernian managing director Mr Dick O'Driscoll said the company, which supplies motor insurance to more than a quarter of the market, was showing its commitment to the concept of the penalty points system, despite the rise in the numbers killed and injured on Irish roads in the past two months.

But he said the Government needed to do more. "If we are ever to see real and long-lasting changes in the insurance market in Ireland, we need to ensure stringent enforcement of Government legislation."

He told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business that Ireland was an unsafe country in which to work or to drive, according to the State's largest insurer.

The committee, which is examining reform of the Irish insurance market, also heard from the Irish Insurance Federation. Chief executive Mr Michael Kemp denied recent reports that the industry was rowing back on commitments to pass on lower benefits as a result of the penalty points system.

Responding to Fine Gael's Mr Phil Hogan, who said motorists would be angry at any reneging on the issue, Mr Kemp said there was no plan to do so. "We are just stressing again the need for sustained enforcement," he said.

The chairman of the committee, Fianna Fáil's Mr Donie Cassidy, said the industry would have to reward the endeavour of both the Government and drivers, as several committee members questioned the record of the insurance industry in passing on the gain of previous reforms.

Senator Terry Leyden (Fianna Fáil) also issued a broadside to the legal profession, saying it too would have to be liable for fraudulent insurance claims, which serve to raise the cost to all customers.

Mr O'Driscoll told the committee that Ireland compared poorly with international experience. "As long as statistics like these prevail in Ireland, it is almost inevitable that we will end up paying higher insurance premiums than our neighbours in Europe," he said.

Along with the IIF and Quinn Direct, which also appeared before the committee, he said there was no chance of fundamentally reducing the cost of insurance in Ireland until measures were put in place to cut the number of claims and, more importantly, cut the cost of claims. "Reduced costs will lead to reduced premiums," was the message from Mr O'Driscoll.

Addressing the committee earlier, Mr Kevin Lunney, financial services director of Quinn Direct, said the awards level in Ireland remained very high, creating a huge differential with other markets. He gave the example of the award given in one case for a "simple arm fracture" in the Irish courts of €15,000. This compared with around €5,000 in Northern Ireland and €2,500 in England.

Speaking later at the launch of a report by Tillinghast-Towers Perrin for Hibernian on the comparative costs of insurance in Irish and international markets, Mr O'Driscoll said that, in the UK, personal injury accounted for just 25 per cent of awards granted; in Ireland, the figure was closer to 75 per cent.

"Given that the payouts for catastrophic injuries are roughly the same in Ireland and Britain, if not higher in Britain, the figures indicate that awards granted for more minor injury in Ireland are hugely out of line with the experience in Britain.

The three industry witnesses called for tougher action on uninsured drivers who, it was said, add between €70 and €100 to the cost of every motor premium.

Silent Bob

So uninsured drivers add €70 to €100 on to the premium?

That's *got* to be the reason that people are being charged upwards of €2000 a year. :rolleyes:@insurance lot.

Am I the only one who finds it pretty appalling that the Insurance industry here isn't regulated? I wrote to my TD about it, fair play to him he investigated all my queries, and the answer that came back was that the government isn't allowed to interfere in the affairs of the insurance companies!

I would imagine that a government 'for the people' should take a healthy interest in matters such as this, after all the law dictates (and rightly so) that we should have insurance to drive on public roads. So since the government requires us to pay insurance, shouldn't we require them to ensure that we get a fair deal?

</rant>

sceptre

Originally posted by STaN
AFAIK that's only for the test

No, it's for the car they're insuring you on. The car for the test is provided (so it's under 1.4 anyway - most of them seem to be 1 litre though for some reason the car my GF did the course in was 1.9 (go figure))

unhappymotoring

I've just been flicking through insurance articles on the net when I found this board. One thing I can assure you of, form my own unfortunate circumstances, is that you should pick the most reputable company for actually sorting out claims....

I was with Allianz, and because of their actions and inactions I've had my business crippled for almost 2 years now, I had to sell the car I had, and now I'm paying €973 a month for the pleasure of driving an older car than the one they insured me for and remaining solvent (just about)!

I can promise you that if Allianz were giving out free insurance I wouldn't take it!!!

I'm now building a site: 'www.unhappymotoring.com' to hopefully steer people clear of what I've had to put up with and will still have to suffer through until at least mid 2011 when I finish paying off the last car loan (if I haven't been forced to get another one out......)

hobochris

I herd that they were gonna cut 15% for drivers with no points and 5% for drivers with less then four points...

Hotblack Desiato

hobochris wrote:

I herd that they were gonna cut 15% for drivers with no points and 5% for drivers with less then four points...

In other words, load drivers with one point 10% - and yes there are one-point offences!
How on earth can they justify that on safety grounds - that Bloke A with no points is 10% safer than Bloke B who drives exactly the same but was unlucky enough to get done once for an offence (and we all know how the Gardai like to target dual carriageways with stupidly low limits.)

It's a scam pure and simple. IF they can produce figures to back up their discounts, then fine, but I can't see how they will, because enforcement of the law depends so much on where you live and which roads you use, not just whether you drive safely or not.

Also, they know that with more and more PP offences, and privatised speed cameras, more and more drivers will have >0 points, therefore they will be able to increase their premiums on average, as the number of points free drivers goes down.

Calibos

unhappymotoring wrote:

I've just been flicking through insurance articles on the net when I found this board. One thing I can assure you of, form my own unfortunate circumstances, is that you should pick the most reputable company for actually sorting out claims.......

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!!

unhappymotoring

Calibos wrote:

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!!

Never realized how old the threat was, just happened across it while I was looking around the net to see if there were other people in the same boat I am.

Now though, it looks funny reading 'Hipochris' and 'Ninja900's additions after a 3 or 4 year gap as if not a day had past

jhegarty

unhappymotoring wrote:

Never realized how old the threat was, just happened across it while I was looking around the net to see if there were other people in the same boat I am.

Now though, it looks funny reading 'Hipochris' and 'Ninja900's additions after a 3 or 4 year gap as if not a day had past

dam... i though I finally had my time machine working for a minute there...

Traumadoc

Calibos wrote:

I couldn't give a **** about neutrality or the European Rapid reaction force etc etc. The sooner there is a U.S of E the better so that I can get any product or service I want from another EU state. Course, we were told the Single European Act in '92 was going to bring us all those benifits and here we are over a decade later........

Talked to a broker the other week who says car insurance is now cheaper in Ireland than in the UK.

Calibos

Calibos wrote:

I couldn't give a **** about neutrality or the European Rapid reaction force etc etc. The sooner there is a U.S of E the better so that I can get any product or service I want from another EU state. Course, we were told the Single European Act in '92 was going to bring us all those benifits and here we are over a decade later........

LOL

I didn't even realise I had posted in this thread before!:D ...and what was I doing bringing the European Rapid Reaction Force and Neutrality into a discussion on Penalty points and Car Insurance?? Must have been the issue de jour on boards that day back in '03.

unkel

Calibos wrote:

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!!

Indeed, not 4 weeks, not 4 months but 4 years old :eek:

Time to close, methinks