What is Racism?

bug

The Oxford English Dictionary defines Racism as, believing one is superior to another based on race creed etc. (Broadly, forgive me I don't have a copy here)
I don't believe that that under any circumstances am I superior to anyone, based on my race creed etc.. I am anti immigration and when I get into a debate/discussion with anyone about the subject racism usually comes up. The stance is now that being anti-immigration and being racist are intertwined and if you are one you must be the other. I'll give you some backround about myself, I vote for the Greens and am generally leftist on other issues but I am considered to be ring Wing on my anti-immigration stance.
Here it is-this is my belief. Man accuires land/animals to tender and produce food to look after his family/himself, through the ages societal structures develop, peoples of different races cultures etc occupy various parts of the world developing in their different ways, technological advances lead to international travel, various peoples travel from point A to point B. Ok.. simplified but you get my point I hope.
Scenario... I walk into your house , tell you my father wants to kill me tell you that you have to pay for my food, clothing and general upkeep and as of now I live in your house and I can't work because I'm not allowed to. So you let me, Firstly, I dont have much money because you cant give me anyomore than you do, my quality of life is pretty bad because I cant enjoy the standards that you do and life is pretty **** for both of us because you liiked living alone and had more benefits not having any dependants. Would you prefere to pay that money to get rid/sort out my problems with me and my father rather than have me in your house?
This is what I believe should happen to tax monies approtioned to asylum seekers in european countries, to sort out their problems at home, after all we can liberate Iraq, can't we? Simplified I know but I hope you get my point

Meh

Originally posted by bug
Would you prefere to pay that money to get rid/sort out my problems with me and my father rather than have me in your house? This is what I believe should happen to tax monies approtioned to asylum seekers in european countries, to sort out their problems at home, after all we can liberate Iraq, can't we?

So you think we should take the money we're spending on providing for asylum seekers and shovel it at Robert Mugabe and his like instead, in the hope that they'll somehow see the error of their ways? Or do you want us to invade all these countries and set them to rights? Either way, this is one of the most hilariously naïve opinions I've ever seen.

amp

/me watches this thread like a hawk

Victor

OK, my friend is German, she works all sorts of hours in her job in a call centre (which could have been in Germany, but isn't). She pays Irish tax, buys Irish products, pays rent to an Irish landlord. Why are you against her living here?

Likewise, in the case of someone who is an asylum seeker is provided with serives by the Irish government, but the government buys Irish products, pays rent to an Irish landlord .....

bug

As I stated previously its over simplified because I ran out of space but I had hoped that I would get my point accross, without spelling it out

So you think we should take the money we're spending on providing for asylum seekers and shovel it at Robert Mugabe and his like instead,

If you actually read the last piece of my post, I was saying.. if we can liberate Iraq, we can liberate other countries with similar regimes, (if that was their motive in the first place), I never said we should give regimes like Mugabe's money, that would be futile, but rather by removing these regimes.
I did expect that I would get backlash for posting this

Victor in anwer to your question about your german friend, your taking me up completely wrong here, she enjoys the benefits of our society, she is inclusive in our society because society allows her to I'm specifically talking about large amounts of asylum seekers who are not aloud to work in this country and as such are marginalised, I'm not adressing individuals moving around and living in different countries.

Or do you want us to invade all these countries and set them to rights

Wasn't that US' final reason for entering Iraq? Liberation?

Victor

Originally posted by bug
Victor in anwer to your question about your german friend, your taking me up completely wrong here, she enjoys the benefits of our society, she is inclusive in our society because society allows her to I'm specifically talking about large amounts of asylum seekers who are not aloud to work in this country and as such are marginalised, I'm not adressing individuals moving around and living in different countries.

But didn't you say you were anti-immigration, is it really that you are anti-asylum seeker?

Meh

Originally posted by bug
If you actually read the last piece of my post, I was saying.. if we can liberate Iraq, we can liberate other countries with similar regimes, (if that was their motive in the first place), I never said we should give regimes like Mugabe's money, that would be futile, but rather by removing these regimes.

In 2002, this country received asylum applications from persons originating in 103 different countries (source). You want to overthrow 103 different governments, fight 103 separate wars? Even George Bush wouldn't go that far.

bug

But didn't you say you were anti-immigration, is it really that you are anti-asylum seeker?

No I believe that muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work.
I think that integration of cultures cannot take place in a short space of time and I definitley dont think that asylum seekers enjoy the same benefits of society as say me you and your german friend. Your putting it accross that I am anti-asylum seeker, they are individuals, they deserve to live in there own countries own their own land, I'm not blaming the individual looking for help. The system of dumping them in foreign countries with alien cultures and giving them allowances is ridiculous, and degrades them.

Victor

Originally posted by bug
If you actually read the last piece of my post, I was saying.. if we can liberate Iraq, we can liberate other countries with similar regimes, (if that was their motive in the first place), I never said we should give regimes like Mugabe's money, that would be futile, but rather by removing these regimes.

But Mugabe freed his people from an opressive racist regime.....

bug

The situation presently in former Rhodesia arose because of British colonialism.

ballooba

Originally posted by bug
I don't believe that that under any circumstances am I superior to anyone, based on my race creed etc..

Thats bullshít. You dont feel sory for any of the following, asylum seekers, itinerants or disabled people?

Feeling sorry for someone is believing that you are superior to them. Feeling that you are better off than them is feeling superior to them.

I believe that Racism is treating someone differently because they are of certain race, creed or colour. I would say that I am racist, I do treat people of races different to me differently but I try to be a good racist i.e. if I treat people differently I err on the side of being helpful and friendly to people. Being any racist is bad, but being a good racist is better than being a bad one.

bug

In 2002, this country received asylum applications from persons originating in 103 different countries (source). You want to overthrow 103 different governments, fight 103 separate wars? Even George Bush wouldn't go that far.

Balloba- the last paragraph in your post indicates to me that the term racism is open to interpretation, which is exactly why I titled it so.

I dont think that this issue can be solved over night, I think 103 wars is OTT nobody is going to go to war for 357 ppl for example, but I think that the international community should really address these issues in the interest of humanity.For example take Nigeria the largest number of applications in 2002 for example from the source that you indicated. They have huge oil resources to the benefit of a small amount of the population, which suits companies like Shell Oil. There is also the division between the christians and the muslems.
I do understand that money and resources drive alot of these issues, for example no one can deny it was in the interest of the US economy to go into Iraq. I just think that its a sad state of affairs when you realise that money does make the world go round.
Anyways I'm off to bed. I hope no offence was taken as none was intended.

Zombrex

Originally posted by bug
No I believe that muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work...

...The system of dumping them in foreign countries with alien cultures and giving them allowances is ridiculous, and degrades them.

Originally posted by bug
about large amounts of asylum seekers who are not aloud to work in this country and as such are marginalised

Are you saying you don't think allowing asylum seekers into the country is a good idea, because it is bad for them? Haven't heard that stance before and i don't think you would get many asylum seekers agreeing with you (for some strange reason)

I totally agree that not letting aslyum-seekers work is a bad system (they should be given support money but allowed to work, and pay tax, at the same time), but i think the system should be improved rather than done away with all together. How does that help those in need of shelter and protection?

On your question of racism ... the simple matter is that a lot of people who do not want asylum seekers into the country have formed their views because of fear and ignorance of other cultures rather than any rational reason. Ireland was never being swamped by asylum seekers and any problems were caused by our government or the Irish people themselves. All these stupid stories about asylum seekers getting free cars, free luxuary homes (sometimes 2 or 3), free entertainment momey etc etc all feed into an irrationaly and racist picture of anyone (not just asylum seekers) from abroad. There was a period were you couldn't turn on the news without hearing about an African or Asian person getting beaten up in Dublin.

I am not calling you a racist, but what do you base your statement that "muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work" on? It seems to me that the only problem is with ourselves, and that is not going to be fixed by removing the asylum system.

Zombrex

Originally posted by bug
but I think that the international community should really address these issues in the interest of humanity.

er... they do, through the aslyum seeker system ...

that is the whole point of the system, and why every country should have one, the interests of humanity

DeVore

If we arent going to fight 103 different "liberation" wars (an idea that leaves me cold) ... what are we going to do with the aslyum seekers that arrive from the countrys that are on our "to do" list?
Do we send them back where they came from to be persecuted?

Personally I cant wait for Ireland to become more multicultural, I'm not sure I like the culture we have here to start with sometimes

DeV.

Kell

Odd that I was pondering racism recently and was nearly prompted to post but at a slightly different angle to bugs. I have to say that I agree with a lot of what she has said here.

Everyone who has accused Bug of being racist, anti-immigrant, anti-asylum seeker musn't have read her post correctly. She pointed out that Iraq was "liberated" to save the Iraqi's from that tyrannical fúck wit hussein, yet we all know it was "liberated" through American self interest.

Why not wage 103 wars against rulers that the world has branded as despots and dicatators? If the people who are slating Bugs post supported the war in Iraq or supported its ideals, are you then not operating off a hypocritcal double standard? I think the core issue that Bug is focussing on is that the problems that create asylum seekers are not being addressed by countries randomly flinging open their doors and saying "Come in yeah. Sit down by the fire and get rid of that chill". The worlds efforts should be directed to ending the peoples problems that have caused them to flee in the first place i.e. military dictatorship, poverty rah rah. If some radical dictatorship suddenly set up here overnight do you think the rest of the world would come to Ireland's aid? Dont Fúcking Think So because we are of no mineral or strategic benefit to anyone else so why should they get involved? How do the rest of you see yourselves in said circumstance wandering down street x in Bahrain looking for a penny for the babbeh?

I wouldn't call myself naive, but FFS, when is the world going to get off it's apathetic bone lazy fúcking arse and start to address the real issues that cause problems? I'll tell you when. When money ceases to make the world go round and people actually really begin to give a damn about their fellow man and the development of the species not just self serving interest.

K-

rubadub

Originally posted by Wicknight
There was a period were you couldn't turn on the news without hearing about an African or Asian person getting beaten up in Dublin.

irish people were still being beaten up, the muggers in ireland are not racist they attack aisians and africans just as much as irish. a lot of asian attacks are among themselves too but it doesnt make the news until it was an all out battle on o connel st. it is just the usual gutter press hype to sell papers. front page "beckam gets a haircut" page 7 "10 people get their heads cut off". front page "german tourist gets a kicking" page 3 "limerick man stabbed in face with 6" blade". they are still being beaten the new about it doesnt sell papers anymore though

peoples ideas of what a racist is depends on their definition of "race", many would call people racist if they say "i hate brits", i would call them prejudiced since i see us as being the same caucasian race. many anti-asylumseekers are called racist but i dont think they all are, some wouldnt care if the asylum seekers were clones of themselves it is the fact that they see them as getting a "free ride" while they struggle on the dole. most people are prejudiced in some ways and it is just common sense usually. if i see a oriental guy these days i presume he is chinese over here working.

the real problem people have it with "chancer" asylum seekers from relatively poor countries but with no dictatorship or oppressive regime. it is very difficult to weed them out. they give genuine asylum seekers a bad name and abuse our country's generosity which could be used for our own people who need welfare, the people who need welfare know this is happening and are as frustrated as the politicians trying to weed out chancers. this in turn leads to some people who need welfare abusing anybody on the street that they think are taking money from them. if all asylum seekers came from a country where everybody had red hair all people with red hair would suffer abuse on the streets. not really racism but "groupism"

Victor

Originally posted by bug
No I believe that muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work.

Mass scale? What mass scale? 100,000 (total of all non-EEA nationals in Ireland) in 4,000,000?

Trebor

Originally posted by Kell

I wouldn't call myself naive, but FFS, when is the world going to get off it's apathetic bone lazy fúcking arse and start to address the real issues that cause problems? I'll tell you when. When money ceases to make the world go round and people actually really begin to give a damn about their fellow man and the development of the species not just self serving interest.
K-

i totaly agree with ya Kell,

the UN was set up for the reason of stoping dictators from coming to power and attacking other countries. but it has to wait for those countries to attack someone else.
it does not want to interfere with internal "conflicts" like genocide. It's time that the UN did some action beyond crippling the economy of these countries with sanctions as we all know santions only work against democratic govnments. dictators don't care if they people starve they still get everything they want.

with regards to racism i think it comes from people feeling bad because when the see someone from another country it makes them realise that here is someone who has taken the time to learn a different language and move to a different country with a different culture and still be succesful, while they themselves are still stuck in a dead end job with no prospects and can't speak any other language and wouldn't even consider going to another country to work.

dathi1

OK, my friend is German, she works all sorts of hours in her job in a call centre (which could have been in Germany, but isn't). She pays Irish tax, buys Irish products, pays rent to an Irish landlord. Why are you against her living here?

I think this is about "asylum" and racism...not European nationals working in their respective countries.

Mass scale? What mass scale? 100,000 (total of all non-EEA nationals in Ireland) in 4,000,000?

If you think €400 million a year isn't mass scale..then ask about Irish nationals i.e. pensioners and the health service were we can spend the cash.

Personally I cant wait for Ireland to become more multicultural, I'm not sure I like the culture we have here to start with sometimes

you mean like Walthamstow, Burnley the working class classrooms of London, Manchester. the run down suburbs of Paris, Marseille. Multiculturalism is a fallacy played over and over again by institutionalised political correctness, a new religion being implemented by Irish Media...and don't you dare attack this new speak or yer a racist.

dathi1

/me watches this thread like a hawk

see what i mean?

Hobbes

Originally posted by bug
No I believe that muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work.

Someone better tell America!

Somehow believing that people do not have a right to escape persecution and/or to have a better life for themselves because you were here first is racism.

There simple.

Now you can argue about the people trying to cheat the system but then people here already try to cheat the system too.

The majority that come into the country try to become productive members of the society and pay back into the society.

Btw, anyone catch 'Kilroy' on TV this morning. They were talking about this very thing. It was funny to watch all the excuses as to why not to let Asylum seekers in and then listen to the other side and watch as the people moaning didn't have a good comeback for it.

For example one of them was saying they had to wait two weeks to get an appointment from thier doctor and when asked to get some treatment for thier son (who had warts?) the doctor told them to get something from the chemist. They claimed it was Asulym seekers. Then they had a doctor who had come to the UK as an Asylum seeker and had 4 practises, one of which catered for Asylum seekers who had just entered the country. They replied "Well if your looking after the Asylum seekers, you can't see anyone else", at which point he mentioned he hired other doctors (who weren't asylum seekers).

dathi1

Someone better tell America!

The US is a continent (much larger than Ireland) of immigrants with the indigenous population all but extinct. + if downtown Los Angeles and the Black / White social status levels are anything to go by its not a very good example.

where else? Palestine? Yugoslavia? Russia? Australia(very good at controlling illegal immigrants)? India / Pakistan? North of Ireland? Dublin in 2010?

Victor

Originally posted by dathi1
I think this is about "asylum" and racism...not European nationals working in their respective countries.

But he objects to immigrants being here and shes not Irish.

Zombrex

Originally posted by dathi1
you mean like Walthamstow, Burnley the working class classrooms of London, Manchester. the run down suburbs of Paris, Marseille. Multiculturalism is a fallacy played over and over again by institutionalised political correctness, a new religion being implemented by Irish Media...and don't you dare attack this new speak or yer a racist.

If you are saying the problems caused in these areas is due to multiculturalism (black and white people are living together) then I am sorry mate but that is as racist a statement as it gets.

Of course we can all see how wonderfull the inner city of dublin is, where there is little multiculturalism ... birds singing, sun shine everyday, nerds and jocks talking to each other (to quote simpsons) .... sigh

Originally posted by dathi1
The US is a continent (much larger than Ireland) of immigrants with the indigenous population all but extinct. + if downtown Los Angeles and the Black / White social status levels are anything to go by its not a very good example.

The point that multiculturalism is a bad idea in the States (and here) because they are all too racist and intolarant for it to work doesn't seem a very good one

The only thing that stops multiculturalism is the people who don't want mulitculturalism ... it is a self-serving prophesy ...

Multiculturalism will never work.
Why?
Cause we won't let it work.

Victor

Take a look at http://www01.imd.ch/documents/wcy/content/ireland.pdf page 263, table 2 - we were found to be the most discriminatory country out of 29. Perhaps there is over-reaction coming from the anti-immigration / racist / anti-asylum groupings?

dathi1

If you are saying the problems caused in these areas is due to multiculturalism (black and white people are living together) then I am sorry mate but that is as racist a statement as it gets.

Let me put one thing straight. NOT agreeing with rampant Multiculturalism is NOT racist! full stop. You can disagree with how the ethnic demographics change in society without being labelled a racist. I accept Multiculturalism is coming one way or another but don't try telling me that's its "good" for society. My idea of Multiculturalism would be a limited number of immigrants in society contributing economically as well as socially to this country. There is a perception amongst the neo liberal extremists and "lets make the same mistakes as the rest of our European partners brigade" that we some how owe this country to the rest of the world because of our past.

dathi1

If you are saying the problems caused in these areas is due to multiculturalism (black and white people are living together) then I am sorry mate but that is as racist a statement as it gets.

If you want to misquote me on the colour of peoples skin then that's your prerogative. The problems associated with Multiculturalism tend to be where one culture has no respect for the host culture...or where neo liberal politically correct "special" laws introduced for new cultures discriminate against the host culture. You stick to skin colour and labelling people racists it will really enlighten the debate:rolleyes:

Zombrex

Oh where to begin ....

dathi1
If you want to misquote me on the colour of peoples skin then that's your prerogative.

Oh right cause you were talking about the multicultural problems between the white people of Walthamstow ... please!

dathi1
The problems associated with Multiculturalism tend to be where one culture has no respect for the host culture

Oh ... my ... god ...

Yeah that’s the problem with multiculturalism in the USA ... those Africans have no respect for the culture of their host country

dathi1
"special" laws introduced for new cultures discriminate against the host culture

Name me one law that unfairly discriminates against an Irish person in favour of someone from another country.

dathi1
NOT agreeing with rampant Multiculturalism is NOT racist! full stop...

...I accept Multiculturalism is coming one way or another but don't try telling me that's its "good" for society

For a start, what exactly is rampant multiculturalism??

So far you have given no economic reason for not allowing rampant multiculturalism. You haven't given any medical or health related reason.

You have said that multiculturalism is not "good for society" because other cultures don't have respect for our culture... that’s right isn't it or am i miss quoting you again ...

You have made a sweeping general statement about pretty much every foreign culture outside Ireland, based on your own stereotypical view of other cultures, ignoring individuality and personal behaviour ...

... and what is another name for that children ... anyone ... gold star for the correct answer ....

QBall

bug: No I believe that muliti-culturalism on a mass scale doesn't work.
Hobbes: Someone better tell America!

It depends on what you consider multi-culturalism to be. The USA is often referred to as a "melting-pot". IME, it's not. It is a mixture of people, many of whom don't like each other.

I have to say that (in my experience) the US is one of the most racist countries I know. OK, maybe I'm generalising. I'll just say that I saw more racism in New York than I've seen here or anywhere else. The sheer number of permutations of racism I saw was eye opening.

I'm "white" and I (and my friends) got abuse for it. I believe what the guy said to us (while holding his =~ 4y.o. daughter's hand) was: "Yo' a white assho', yo' ain't worth sh1t!" (Repeatedly, like a mantra). One of the other guys in my house got stones thrown at him along with abuse. OK, so maybe the neighbourhood wasn't the best, but the racist angle was unnecessary.

To a certain extent, we expected hassle from the local scumbags, cos scumbags will be scumbags, but getting hassle for being white?

Another (somewhat bizarre) example was this conversation with a taxi driver:
Driver: "You English?"
Us:"No, Irish."
Driver:"Oh, good, so you hate the British like I do!"
Us:<Something about not all Irish hating British, and asking him why he does>
Driver:"Well, I'm Iranian but everyone thinks I'm Indian. And those Indian b*stards can't drive!"
Us:"Yeah, but why hate the British?"
Driver:"In 400 years of occupying India, the bladdy British didn't teach those Indian b*stards how to drive!"

Oh and while I'm at it:

Originally posted by Victor
But Mugabe freed his people from an opressive racist regime.....

... and replaced it with another. Sorry, it had to be said.

IMHO there is one very obvious flaw with the way asylum laws are in this country. If you enter the country illegally you can still apply for asylum. This seems a bit wrong to me. As far as I'm concerned the rules should be:

If you enter the country legally AND declare your intent to apply for asylum "at the door" then you should be given every opportunity to gain asylum here. If you enter illegally, or enter legally under false pretences you should be summarily deported. Illegal entry to a country is a crime, and we have enough criminals as it is, not to mention the harm it does to the reputations of those honestly needing help.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cent.

Sparks

If you enter the country legally AND declare your intent to apply for asylum "at the door" then you should be given every opportunity to gain asylum here. If you enter illegally, or enter legally under false pretences you should be summarily deported. Illegal entry to a country is a crime, and we have enough criminals as it is, not to mention the harm it does to the reputations of those honestly needing help.

Qball, I can understand what you're trying to say here, but there's something you've overlooked, and that is that the Irish government doesn't educate everyone in the world about our asylum procedures. Those seriously desperate to get here for genuine reasons don't always know what the legal avenues are, and when you're trying to get in so that you don't get killed, correct protocol isn't always uppermost in your mind.

Kell

Originally posted by Hobbes
Somehow believing that people do not have a right to escape persecution and/or to have a better life for themselves because you were here first is racism.

Durrr, wrong answer. No it's not. Racism is a WORD with a DEFINITION in several dictionaries and all of the definitions in all the dictionaries from the eeney weeney pocket ones to the big bad library ones say:

racism noun (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialism) DISAPPROVING
the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races


racist noun [C] (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialist) DISAPPROVING
someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly

At no point has anyone that has been branded a racist here got on their soap box and said "I dont want immigrants in my country because they are sub human and I am soooo much better than they". Why is it that these days is it so non PC, and thats what it is; non PC and nothing more, to question why so many people are coming through the door to live off a service that doesnt have the funds to support them? I would call that realism not racism.

Can the people who have branded Dathi1 and Bug racists, please come down off your politically correct hi gound for a minute and read what they are getting at and not what it "Obviously sounds like" because it's not politically correct.

K-

QBall

Originally posted by Sparks
Qball, I can understand what you're trying to say here, but there's something you've overlooked, and that is that the Irish government doesn't educate everyone in the world about our asylum procedures. Those seriously desperate to get here for genuine reasons don't always know what the legal avenues are, and when you're trying to get in so that you don't get killed, correct protocol isn't always uppermost in your mind.

<SARCASM>Oh, I see, you're arguing that ignorance of the law is a defence. OK, next time I get hassle from a random scumbag, I can beat him to death and claim that I thought it was OK so long as he started it.</SARCASM>

Equality of treatment for both asylum seekers and people who have lived here all their lives is vital. You can't make a special case for the asylum seekers while expecting them to be treated with respect by the local populace.

Are you implying that the people that arrve here illegally are so stupid to assume that it's OK to come in without permission? Come on, pull the other one. I don't know of a single country in the world which doesn't treat illegal entry as a crime. Maybe you can enlighten me. I do know that if I don't know the entry requirements for a country, showing up inside their borders without permission is not the way to find out.

I don't believe that the government should have to "educate everyone in the world about our asylum procedures". If you want to live here, then maybe you should be courteous enough to find out what the requirements are. Granted, that may not be possible from your native country but the very least you can do is assume that you have to arrive legally. Oh, and while you're at it, maybe ask "at the door"? It's not brain surgery, it would be common sense.

amp

Originally posted by dathi1
see what i mean?

I don't. What do you mean?

Sparks

QBall,
It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of education. I'm not saying that equality should be abandoned, I'm saying that a rigidly enforced policy of summary deportation for not following the legal procedures we have is not a good idea, for the simple reason that no written law can cover every concievable situation. There is no way to be sure that every potential asylum seeker is literate, speaks english well, or has ever even seen the inside of a school. And given that a genuine asylum seeker cannot always make detailed travel plans from their country of origin, and in many cases cannot risk being denied entry and publicly sent home - well, what's needed here is sufficent compassion to examine the circumstances of each case and judge it on it's merits.
Unfortunately, our Minister of Justice is McDowell, a little hitler in training if I've ever seen one

Zombrex

Originally posted by QBall
Are you implying that the people that arrve here illegally are so stupid to assume that it's OK to come in without permission?

I think the point he was making was that a lot of asylum seekers don't know that they can enter the country legally.

Remember these people are running from oppressive regimes, often from countries that have much less freedom of movement than us in Europe.

My mother deals with asylum seekers a lot in her job, and often they assume that there are much more of a clamp down on personal freedoms than there actually is ... one woman from Africa believed she had to take her children everywhere with her while she was being processed or the children would be deported

Victor

Originally posted by QBall
I don't know of a single country in the world which doesn't treat illegal entry as a crime.

Duh! Self perpetuating statement! Of course if it's a crime it's going to be illegal. What about countries with open borders? Your country either has open borders or it has closed/controlled borders those with open borders haven't have crossing the border a crime. Those with closed/controlled borders have made it a crime to cross in an other than contolled fashion.

It just so happens we effectively have an open border with the UK.

QBall

Originally posted by Sparks
It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of education. I'm not saying that equality should be abandoned, I'm saying that a rigidly enforced policy of summary deportation for not following the legal procedures we have is not a good idea, for the simple reason that no written law can cover every concievable situation. There is no way to be sure that every potential asylum seeker is literate, speaks english well, or has ever even seen the inside of a school. And given that a genuine asylum seeker cannot always make detailed travel plans from their country of origin, and in many cases cannot risk being denied entry and publicly sent home - well, what's needed here is sufficent compassion to examine the circumstances of each case and judge it on it's merits. Unfortunately, our Minister of Justice is McDowell, a little hitler in training if I've ever seen one

All good points (apart from the gratuitous attack on the MoJ - even if he is a f*ckwit, I don't think he's quite so bad as to be compared to Hitler).

The problem is that by allowing people who have entered illegally to stay you implicitly say that it's OK for them to break our laws. Laws are worthless without enforcement. If you wish to allow asylum seekers to break the laws on entry to this country then you should get rid of those laws and allow everyone to do the same as the (currently) illegal immigrants.

The point I was making above was that if you allow asylum seekers to break our laws:

1. They will not get (and actually would not be deserving of) the respect of the local population.
2. Some will assume that laws in this country can be ignored at will. After all if they have not "even seen the inside of a school" then they might make such assumptions.

I was also saying that it doesn't take intelligence or education to figure out that unauthorised entry to a country is the wrong way to go about looking for help, it's just common sense. If I wanted to borrow money from you, would you treat me the same if I broke into your house to ask?

Originally posted by Wicknight
I think the point he was making was that a lot of asylum seekers don't know that they can enter the country legally.

Then why pick Ireland to come to in the first place? Ireland is not easy to get to without passing through a country which you could legally enter and look for asylum. If you decide you're coming to Ireland then you must have reasons for it. Surely one of these would be that you could get in? How do asylum seekers pick Ireland as a place to live? Disregarding the ones that pick Ireland at random, a choice to come here presumes some knowledge of the country, how to get there and how to get in.

Originally posted by Wicknight
Remember these people are running from oppressive regimes, often from countries that have much less freedom of movement than us in Europe.

My mother deals with asylum seekers a lot in her job, and often they assume that there are much more of a clamp down on personal freedoms than there actually is ... one woman from Africa believed she had to take her children everywhere with her while she was being processed or the children would be deported

If someone was coming from an oppressive regime, then surely they would have at least a cursory knowledge of the concept of border control. If asylum seekers are as afraid of deportation as the woman you mentioned above, then you'd think they'd do their utmost not to be deported. As I said above, unauthorised entry to a country is not a smart way to start off your relationship with that country and it only takes a bit of simple cop-on to figure that out. You don't need to be educated, literate or even all that intelligent.

Originally posted by Victor
Duh! Self perpetuating statement! Of course if it's a crime it's going to be illegal.

Sorry, I should have said unauthorised rather than illegal.

Also, for what it's worth, not everything that is illegal is a crime. To break a non-criminal law would be illegal but not criminal. I could be wrong but if my memory serves me correctly libel and slander are not criminal offenses yet both are against the law.

Beëlzebooze

maybe it is time that all the economic asylum seekers that left ireland over the past century or two where sent back to their native country, see how you like them apples.

It's all well and good bitching about foreigners coming to Ireland, but the Irish will leave Ireland at the drop of a hat for greener pastures.