Equality Legislation - B&B owner upholding 'will of God' in turning unmarried couple

Victor

Now this is an odd one, is this a domestic situation (where you can discriminate) or a commercial one (where you can't discriminate)? If the B&B is the residence of the owner, can she say whatever she wants about her guests (and decline their custom).

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/698513?view=Eircomnet

B&B owner upholding 'will of God' in turning unmarried couple away
From:The Irish Independent
Friday, 9th May, 2003
Nicola Tallant

A B&B owner who refused to allow a couple stay at her guesthouse because they weren't married has defended her actions saying it is the "will of God".

Margaret Dowling, who owns New County B&B in Cavan, said there would be no room at the inn for any couples - unless they had walked down the aisle.

"I did what was important for me and what the Bible would say," she said. "I'm sorry but that is my belief and the law of God."

Margaret, a mother of 11, turned away Gary O'Connell and fiancee Susan Sharpe last weekend after they admitted they hadn't tied the knot.

Gary phoned the Gerry Ryan radio show to complain about his treatment by the grandmother who opened the B&B four years ago.

Yesterday she defended herself on the show, saying: "Not under those conditions - I wouldn't let them in unless they had separate rooms.

"This isn't an argument, it is just the difference between what is right and what is wrong. That's all."

Margaret admitted that her staunch views have affected her business.

"Everyone has their free will and it does affect my business. I have turned quite a few people away but I am quite willing to do that to stand by what I believe in."

sanvean

what the Bible would say

She treading on tricky ground there. Wonder if she takes Revelation 24 literally? bcos if she's not a virgin Jewish male, then she's not getting into heaven.

yes, I know it's trite, but still, does anyone remember the B+B case involving the man refusing entry to an Israeli, bcos he disagreed with his governments illegal occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip? I'm guessing the same theory applies here, that she has a business, which she's not allowed to use to discriminate against anyone, either on their race or the marital status. But i could (and knowing this country, probably am) wrong.
It's like we're back in the fifties again!!!

sceptre

no room at the inn

Wonder if she has a stable out back.

Can't find any "New County" B+B on the Bord Failte site. There's a "New Inn" in Ballyjamesduff but it's run by a Pauline O'Reilly Cfrom cross-referencing with another B&B site)

seamus

As sanvean said. What use would it be, say if it came to court, of using one of the Bible's many contradictions against her.

IIRC, Adam & Eve never formally got married either did they?

I think we need to know what laws apply here though. If discrimination laws apply, then she's wholly wrong. If she can accept or refuse whomever she likes, then she's well within her rights, regardless of how much I disagree with her.

I personally think that the entire country should be forced to take classes, to learn the three most effective words in making a point. IN MY OPINION

"This isn't an argument, it is just the difference between what is right and what is wrong. That's all."

For example, append the words "in my opinion" after the word "wrong", and suddenly she becomes a person dedicated to her beliefs and with the courage of her convictions, as opposed to be a rabid old biddy who only had sex to conceive and never missed mass in her life.

:rolleyes:

sceptre

Nicely put Seamus. Everyone's got the right to their own opinions as long as they don't try to foist them on others. Or make a statement of opinion as a fact. Of course, if you stand on a soap box and voice your opinion you're putting yourself in a situation where others should get to put their point of view across as well

(I'm assuming the GRyan show called her rather than the other way around? Did she make any comments wrt married couples who take a little pill once a day?)

Captain Trips

But she also should have the right to refuse who she wants. Should she be denied the right to refuse a drug dealer, who may not be selling drugs there, but is a scumbag? (Not a great argument I know)

I don't agree with her, but I see no reason why she can't run her business the way the wants.

Or are we turning into a society where people have to always be somebody's gimp?

DeVore

Originally posted by sceptre
Wonder if she has a stable out back.

LOL!


In response to the "she should be able to turn away anyone she likes"... well our social rules allow for people to operate businesses but only if they dont discriminate. If you dont want a black man in your house, dont open a public B&B.

You cant have it both ways.... So in that sense she doesnt have the right to turn them away just cos she doesnt agree with them not being married. Will she turn away Muslims? Atheists? Sinners?

Stupid bat.

DeV.

Meh

But she also should have the right to refuse who she wants. Should she be denied the right to refuse a drug dealer, who may not be selling drugs there, but is a scumbag?

http://www.equality.ie/
The Employment Equality Act, 1998 and the Equal Status Act,2000 outlaw discrimination in employment, vocational training, advertising, collective agreements, the provision of goods and services and other opportunities to which the public generally have access on nine distinct grounds. These are:
· gender;
· marital status;
· family status;
· age;
· disability;
· race;
· sexual orientation;
· religious belief; and
· membership of the Traveller Community.

I see no mention of drug dealers in there.

Captain Trips

Yeah but are now dictating what rights people have in a private business. I see no reason for government interference with that equality act.

It's done nothing for me, and reading the papers today regarding insurance, I am discriminated against on grounds of:
gender; - yup, being male
· marital status; - i am single (increased risk)
· family status; - what does this mean?
· age; I am under 30, and when I am 30, I will be in the "at risk - under 34" category.

I am at risk and several companies refuse to quote me.

Yeah it sucks, but lets see what I can do about it. Nothing, even with the equality act. I take my business and money somewhere else. I get over it. She may be entitled to argue that being unmarried they are more likely to be as "unstable" as I am and may be likely to cause damage to property?>

This is what insurance companies do. It affects a far greater population.

I believe management reserves the right to refuse admission. Or are we also taking away personal opinion on how to run a business? Does anybody have any personal rights left? How about we separate church and law and the lady can tell anyone she likes to feck off? I don't see this as being a bad thing.

Or is couple going to go down the route of suing her?

DeVore

What if she refused a Muslim person on the grounds that they would pray in her house?

She gets tax relief and Vat back from the Government because she's running (or should be running) a limited company to do the accounts of the B&B (or at least a sole-trader account). So since she's getting tax back, she should reasonably service everyone who pays towards those taxes... thats what the Equity law is all about. Not being able to discriminate between customers on those grounds.

Insurance companies are allowed to quote higher rates based on probability of likely accident.

DeV.

echomadman

This sort of thing is quite common in rural ireland, a few years ago me and my girlfriend were looking for a one bedroom flat in ennis,
we were refused tenancy in a number of flats due to the fact that we would be "living in sin".

Victor

I don't know about this guest house, but there is a specific category of guest house with up to 3 bedrooms. Above that figure, more stringent rules apply (fire, catering, tourism standards, VAT, income tax, capital gains, etc.).

It is perfectly acceptable for a private householder to dictate minimum behaviour rules to a lodger (wouldn't it be wrong for the state to insist you accept someone who offended your sensibilities into your household?) Commercial (i.e. not residing on the property) landlords may not discriminate. However, if this is a small guesthouse with a family living in it where do we (and the law) stand?

Originally posted by Captain Trips
Yeah but are now dictating what rights people have in a private business. I see no reason for government interference with that equality act.

There is no suggestion they will in fact it was this government (well technically the last) that enacted the legislation. However, there might be a grey area between what is domestic and commercial and that is what I am raising.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
· family status; - what does this mean?

Essentially, whether you are or are not a parent. Some pro-family exceptions exist.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
It's done nothing for me, and reading the papers today regarding insurance, I am discriminated against on grounds of: gender; - yup, being male · marital status; - i am single (increased risk) · family status; - what does this mean? · age; I am under 30, and when I am 30, I will be in the "at risk - under 34" category. I am at risk and several companies refuse to quote me.

Discrimination is permitted on sound statistical grounds. 75% of people killed in RTAs are male, hence men have a higher weighting when it comes to insurance. Young men are in more accidents than older men and so on. If a comprehensive penalty points database becomes available, the rules on what are "sound statistical grounds" are likely to change.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
Yeah it sucks, but lets see what I can do about it. Nothing, even with the equality act. I take my business and money somewhere else.

Not everyone (not just for financial reasons) can go elsewhere, hence the Act.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
I believe management reserves the right to refuse admission. Or are we also taking away personal opinion on how to run a business? Does anybody have any personal rights left?

Running a business is not a personal right.

Originally posted by DeVore
What if she refused a Muslim person on the grounds that they would pray in her house?

Again it's down to domestic -v- commercial. However, I don't think it's against any religion to pray (idolising false gods aside).

Originally posted by DeVore
She gets tax relief and Vat back from the Government because she's running (or should be running) a limited company to do the accounts of the B&B (or at least a sole-trader account). So since she's getting tax back, she should reasonably service everyone who pays towards those taxes.../B]

The regime for B&Bs is as I said split on the size issue, she may not be able to write off her expenses, but on the flips side the income isn't fully taxed either.

Originally posted by echomadman
This sort of thing is quite common in rural ireland, a few years ago me and my girlfriend were looking for a one bedroom flat in ennis, we were refused tenancy in a number of flats due to the fact that we would be "living in sin".

This was probably legal at the time, but is now illegal. Woe betide any landlord who tries it on "Accommodation".

Borzoi

Just to deal with some of the tax issues, the majority of small B&Bs (esp those not with Bord Failte) are not registered businesses.

As such they do not have any VAT rebates. All money earned is liable to personal income tax, except that which can be written off against expenses (ie food, cleaning materials etc)

Remember they operate as guesthouses, people staying there are guests in the home of the owner.



On an aside DeV made a point about tax rebates=open to public. Well tell that to the bouncer who refuese you entry with your white trainers on..
:rolleyes:

DeVore

There is a GREAT difference between saying

"this particular person is not welcome in my house/business etc"

and

"I will never accept anyone of <this> group into my home."

The former is subjective, the latter prejudiced (in the true sense of the word).

(That said, I'm still waiting for someone to take an action on behalf of trainer-wearers everywhere! )


However...I ask the Pro-group again... what if she turned away Muslims because they would be praising false gods in her house? They would be committing sin as far as she is concerned (the fact that they see nothing wrong with praying to their God is analogous to the couple seeing nothing wrong with pre-marital sex).

Would it be acceptible for her to turn away Muslims because they were going to commit the sin of false idolitary in her home? (breaking one of the ten commandments no less!)

Would that be as acceptible?


DeV.

Victor

Originally posted by DeVore
Pro-group

Pro- what?

Originally posted by DeVore
Would it be acceptible for her to turn away Muslims because they were going to commit the sin of false idolitary in her home? (breaking one of the ten commandments no less!)

Possibly a bad example, don't Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God? But is it was some other religion, I think it is fair for any proprietor to restrict religious practice in common areas, but not in private rooms.

sanvean

Originally posted by DeVore
There is a GREAT difference between saying

"this particular person is not welcome in my house/business etc"

and

"I will never accept anyone of <this> group into my home."

But if she's refusing admission on the basis of marital status, then it is discrimination.

And, as far as I know, traditional Catholic teaching has moved on from the middle ages theory that Islam worship false gods. in fact, the Catholic Church's use of statues etc is something of a fine line.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Victor
Running a business is not a personal right.

I agree with your post as a whole, but I'm curious about this point.

Doesn't anyone have the right to run a business? Or did you mean that running a business doesn't give carte blanche to dictate how it is run? Or wot?

Victor

Originally posted by sanvean
But if she's refusing admission on the basis of marital status, then it is discrimination.

But is it illegal discrimination? For example discriminating against poor people and people with poor dress style is still legal

Originally posted by sanvean
in fact, the Catholic Church's use of statues etc is something of a fine line.

Only if you come from certain lines of Protestantism

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Doesn't anyone have the right to run a business? Or did you mean that running a business doesn't give carte blanche to dictate how it is run? Or wot?

I didn't really think that out when I said it. By personal right I meant freedom of movement, free speech, etc. In the Constitution, everyone has the right to property and to work, but Articles 43 & 45 place limits on what a business can do - the government can intervene in the common good (as it did with the Employment Equality Act and the Equal Status Act).

DeVore

(Victor by "pro-group" I mean pro-her-stance.)



Anyone can run a business but they are expected to comply with the common law of the land and the companies act and a number of other regulations.

I can tell you for certain that speaking as an employer if I were to say "I'm sorry but I'm not employing you because I dont want you're religion in my workplace" I'd be in court like a shot.

Either she is in the service industry or its a private house. She can choose but she cant have her cake and eat it. Thats what the Equity law is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO STOP.

So, suppose a Wiccan wants to avail of her B&B... now this person isnt going to go around casting spells and going OooooOOOoo... (I work with one and have a number of wiccan friends who are all remarkably level headed).
Anyway, this person is, in the privacy of their rented room and without disturbing the peace or damaging the room, going to follow their traditions and pray to their gods (plural).

Does she have the right to say "I dont want you in here" solely on the grounds of her religious beliefs/objections??


[_] <--- can
[align=right]worms---> ~~~~ [/align]


DeV.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by DeVore
Does she have the right to say "I dont want you in here" solely on the grounds of her religious beliefs/objections??

No.

Meh quoted this already, but it bears repeating:

The Employment Equality Act, 1998 and the Equal Status Act,2000 outlaw discrimination in employment, vocational training, advertising, collective agreements, the provision of goods and services and other opportunities to which the public generally have access on nine distinct grounds. These are:

• gender;
• marital status;
• family status;
• age;
• disability;
• race;
• sexual orientation;
• religious belief; and
• membership of the Traveller Community.

Discrimination is described in the Act as the treatment
of a person in a less favourable way than another person is,
has been or would be treated on any of the above grounds.

Seems pretty clear to me...

Macker

And she has 2 daughters who are unmarried mothers ,wonder were they refused entry into her house


Macker