A case for banning Muslim places of worship?

pro_gnostic_8

Should a "cease trading" order be put on Moslem mosques and Islamic schools? In the aftermath of the most recent suicide bombing in Tel Aviv I think this is a valid question.

What persuaded Asif Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif (two educated, intelligent young men from English suburbia and from comfortable middle-class backgrounds) to kill and be killed in a distant country with which they have no connection?

One from London, the other from Derby. The only denominator common to each is that they both were instructed in Islamic studies by the radical fundamentalist Sheik Omar Bahri Mohammed, head of the London School of Sharia and spokesman for Al-Mahajiroun. It does seem that some religious schools and mosques are openly and blatantly preaching hatred and encouraging acts of terrorism. The recent case of the Finsbury Park mosque and its hook-handed cleric is another example.

What is the solution in these times of religious tolerance. Do Western societies have the moral right to defend their security and safety against acts of terrorism. If you accept that democracies do have this right, then do you believe that it is incumbent upon them to close down these nurseries of global jihad? I know that Islam in its orthodoxy can be a force for good but should it be demanded without compromise to strongly denounce and outlaw its more extreme and radical adherents............ or if it fails to do this should its more fundamentalist places of worship be summarily shut down by the State authorities?

lordsippa

Yes! Let's ban the muslims!

hmm... also by your logic since priests have abused kids let's ban catholic churches!

and seeing as there have been cases of the uvf killing people let's get rid of protestants too!

hmm... oh and those pagans, they are an awful lot! i know! let's round them up and burn them!

And atheists... I mean those godless hellspawns must be up to something so why not have them all put into special institutions just to be safe...

Oh and hell let's have another attack on the Jews just to be safe!

FFS! One person does not represent an entire group of people, no matter what his/her position, education, or background. So cop on.

mike65

Ditto everything lordsippa said...

Mike.

DeVore

Hang on, thats not exactly what the original poster was arguing (or even asking!).

Here's my take on it... *anywhere* that is actively preaching/training/advocating/encouraging violent hate-crimes should be shut down as per the mandate to enforce the UN charter of Human Rights. No group can use its right to free association or speech (or indeed any other right) to impinge on other peoples right to life and to live that life free from fear.

If the police can prove its a cover for such activities, then I think they should shut down anywhere (religious or otherwise) that is being used to bomb murder and maim.

I wouldnt say the Muslims were any worse then the Catholic church in the North personally...

DeV.

Boston

Originally posted by DeVore
Here's my take on it... *anywhere* that is actively preaching/training/advocating/encouraging violent hate-crimes should be shut down as per the mandate to enforce the UN charter of Human Rights. No group can use its right to free association or speech (or indeed any other right) to impinge on other peoples right to life and to live that life free from fear.
DeV.

What about palestinian children, the school where they learn to hate isreali's in on their own streets and towns, how are you goign to ban this, force the isreali's to stop murdering? What is it you think is being taught to isreali children, only that muslin are scum and less then them and the enemy, do you think the likes of the un would be so quick to but an end to this. what is intermint onyl a hate crime, well? The truth is painfull and often times full of hate, how can your preserve one without the other

Clintons Cat

there seems to be a veiw that muslims are exempt from hate laws,This is a myth.

The extremist Muslim preacher, Abdullah el-Faisal, has been jailed for nine years for stirring up racial hatred and inciting his followers to murder.

The Jury found Abdullah Ibrahim El-Faisal guilty of three counts of soliciting murder of Indians, Hindus, Jews, Americans and unbelievers, two counts of intending to stir up racial hatred, and one further count of distributing abusive recordings.



It was the 12-hours of video tapes, of El-Faisal's sermons, that formed the backbone of this prosecution.

I dont see any incompatability with a multi cultural society and one that protects all its citizens from incitement by rabble rousers.

As for shutting down all mosques because of a few bad apples well i disagree with that entirely.Prosecute the guilty

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by lordsippa
Yes! Let's ban the muslims!

Ahh, sippa, willya stop ffs! Never was it suggested that "Muslims be banned".

What I would be interested in knowing, however, is your dialectic in debate against the posit that if some mosques or religious schools are inherently seditious/anti-Western and murderous in their aims....... should they be shut down by the society that they wish to inflict injury upon? Or, alternatively, should mainstream Islam own up and police its own backyard?

lordsippa

I was mainly opposing your specific targetting of Muslim "rabble rousers". There are trouble makers of every single denomination (as those rastafarians killing the priest and nun for "God" have proven). I don't think you should close down an institution because one person was teaching people to hate. Instead deal with that person.

It's just my personal pet hate that all these reactions to such threats to peace are short cuts, dealing with the issue but also harming a lot of innocent people in the process.

My <well by now it'd be 4c I guess>.

Clintons Cat

alternatively, should mainstream Islam own up and police its own backyard?

You could argue that mainstream catholics should police the IRA,its nonsensical.

Besides which you are ignoring the fact that The Muslim Council has made numerous statements disavowing the statements made by extremists.Furthermore the Finsbury Park Mosque Board of deputies shut down the Finsbury Park mosque after a protracted legal struggle to get him removed from the premises.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
.

As for shutting down all mosques because of a few bad apples well i disagree with that entirely.Prosecute the guilty

Then, do you think, Clint, that the mosques that ARE overseen by the bad apples should be shut down?

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, honestly. It's a dilemma that I am wrestling with ............... the democratic right of the individual to free expression (no matter how demented the views of that individual may be) and that individual's power of evil influence against the rights of society to protect its citizens against atrocity.

La_Gordy

"It does seem that some religious schools and mosques are openly and blatantly preaching hatred and encouraging acts of terrorism"

Thats not just in Islam and if to ban muslim places of worship would be pretty racist and hypocritical since Ireland is a "breeding ground" for Republicans and the like yadda.

La_Gordy

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Then, do you think, Clint, that the mosques that ARE overseen by the bad apples should be shut down?

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, honestly. It's a dilemma that I am wrestling with ............... the democratic right of the individual to free expression (no matter how demented the views of that individual may be) and that individual's power of evil influence against the rights of society to protect its citizens against atrocity.

Then thats not just muslims {twas a bit risky insinuating the demented views bit!} and in reality no banning like that can be done without severe consequences.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
You could argue that mainstream catholics should police the IRA,its nonsensical.

I'm sorry........... I don't understand this. I think you are proceeding from a false premise. One is a religion -- the other a political movement (a movement whose membership was not in the too distant past excomunicated from the Roman church for its terrorist activities)

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Nisara
[B
Thats not just in Islam and if to ban muslim places of worship would be pretty racist and hypocritical since Ireland is a "breeding ground" for Republicans and the like yadda. [/B]

Have yet to hear of any priest in recent times advocating his congregation from the pulpit to join the "RA" and go suicide bombing the UK.

Clintons Cat

sorry........... I don't understand this. I think you are proceeding from a false premise. One is a religion -- the other a political movement

Al-Mahajiroun is a political movement.Spot the false premise in the original statement.

My point is Your point is based upon a false premise.

That if it is for ordinary muslims to police the extremists.Why not apply that premise to Catholics and the IRA,Its guilt by association.

and dont give me any guff about catholic church trying to excommunicate IRA terrorists,Name me one it has excommunicated.Not so long ago it was quite prepared to bury terrorists with full IRA ceremonial funerals,paraphenailia and all.

Then, do you think, Clint, that the mosques that ARE overseen by the bad apples should be shut down?

You seem to be ignoring my assertation that the Finsbury Park mosque was shut down at the instigation of the very people you accuse of doing nothing to curb extremists.

La_Gordy

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Have yet to hear of any priest in recent times advocating his congregation from the pulpit to join the "RA" and go suicide bombing the UK.

Thats quite a retarded thing to say.So maybe a priest hasn't in the history that we know of said that but it could happen and even if it has.hasn't/didn't/won't . Think further than Ireland and Northern Ireland and really see it not as a priest but as a person of influence from my example.Surely you could have worked that out yourself!!!Anyways , no to banning.

DeVore

I know of several Catholic priests in the north who have openly supported the IRA throughout the years. And a few more who harboured men on the run... ran arms and were part of the movement.

It doesnt make the church guilty (they were men who were acting on their own and not as "priests" per se) but its the same thing as an extremist muslim cleric saying race-hate stuff, worse perhaps, since they were actively assisting it.

The point is: Its illogical to lump the entire catholic church into the same boat as those priests, just as it is illogical to lump the entire Muslim faith in with the few nutty clerics.

DeV.

DeVore

Damn, I used to have a quote in my sig that read:

An idea isnt responsible for the people who believe in it

it would have been very apt here...

DeV.

DeVore

pps: actually the quote I have there now works just as well...
for those that dont have sigs on, I'll paste it here:

As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. -- George Washington

DeV.

Executive Steve

no offence mate but banning moques because some muslims left your country to fly thousands of miles to bomb someone else in another country is an absolutely f u c k i n g retarted idea...
if you ban mosques what you get is a community inside your country who dont want to fly thousands of miles to bomb another country because theyre quite happy to stay at home and bomb the one living in thank you very much... martyrdom is martyrdom whether you got it in london or the lebanon, palestine or pallasgreen [co. limerick]

the solution is to work with the leaders of all faith based communities to make sure that, whatever about their relationships with each other in other countries, in their new home, be it ireland or holland or the uk, disputes are settled by cinsensus and dialogue, and communities have the freedom to grow prosper and worship whether or not any of their members decide to fly off to heaven via tel aviv.

its like the spanish civil war; in the 1930s thousands of working/ middle class youth were pissed off at the state of the world.. what did they do? they joined an international brigade travelled to spain on the far side of europe and got them selves blown up, killing a few fascists in the process... judging the case of the two british martyrs in any other way is a rascist category mistake, and closing the peoples places of worship is, as i said, plain f u c k i n g stupid.

peace

sanvean

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Should a "cease trading" order be put on Moslem mosques and Islamic schools?

You see, you claim later that you were referring to those mosques and schools which practiced rhetoric and hate against other peoples and nations, but this here is where most people seem to have taken you up on the wrong foot, so to speak. In answer to this question, no, a 'cease trading' order should not be put on Moslem mosques and Islamic schools, bcos of a few bad apples.

There's a problem with reporting and general perceptions of Islam in 'Western' Society. That is, there is a tendency to view Islam (all billion followers of them) as part of a united body, which ignores language, cultural and national divisions. There is a similar problem in some areas of 'Islamic' though, where they view the West as one homogenous body, which we all know to be false (of course). We can see examples of this in labelling certain political movements as Islamic (such as the example given by clinton's cat Al-Mahajiroun, as well as Hezbollah, which despite being set up as a guerilla movement to oppose Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon, is always labelled an Islamic militant organisation 'backed by Shi'ite Iran').

Islamic schools and mosques which preach hate against other races, etc, which go against anti-racist legislature already in place, should be closed down (if this is the best way of going about it) the same as applied to other organisations doing similar actions.

Executive Steve

my point is that closing them down is not the best option... its far and away the worst option to silence a fanatic, for every fanatic you silence you push a moderate to re-examine his or her beliefs.... the only way to deal with it is to bring the mosques into the wider community and have as much co operation and consensus between all faith based community organisations... if everybody had to sit around a table every week and report on their activities the religious of all traditions would be benefited, understanding would be fostered and prejudice counteracted... will that ever happen in ireland? no.. because ireland has only recently had to cope with an influx of heterogenous immigrants you'd think that our wise government would do a bit of research into how best to deal with it, and attempt at least to deal with the mistakes other countries made... of course fianna f u c k i n g fail cant plan further ahead than the next galway bloody races, and multi cultural immigration and community building is not exactly a votewinner in irish politics.... come to think of it policy on anything isnt a vote winner in irish politics.... louis copeland suits however, or soccer stadia, well thats a different matter... who gives a c r a p if were 25% above our kyoto targets if we can have a footy stadium of our very own?

Victor

If these schools "cease trading" (if this is the technical term and if it is legal to issue such and order, which I doubt), I wonder where the children (perhaps 10,000) will be forced to go? Perhaps ordinary Irish schools which have a primarily Catholic / Christian ethos? How about we just take them away from their parents altogether and give them Irish names?

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Should a "cease trading" order be put on Moslem mosques and Islamic schools? In the aftermath of the most recent suicide bombing in Tel Aviv I think this is a valid question.

As people have said, you are suggesting branding an entire community for the acts of 1-3 people.

I remember in third year history class being encouraged to chant (which I didn't) anti-English slogans by the teacher. Should all Catholic school be shut because of this blantant racism and incitement (linked with thousands of deaths).

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
I remember in third year history class being encouraged to chant (which I didn't) anti-English slogans by the teacher

That's mad! what reason did the teacher give for the chants? what sort of school did you go to (if you don't mind me asking)?

Victor

Originally posted by sanvean
That's mad! what reason did the teacher give for the chants? what sort of school did you go to (if you don't mind me asking)?

The local Christian Brother's school (nearly all lay teachers). Our history teacher was out that day and the substitute (later my French teacher) was doing a bit on "English attrocities" from circa 1700 with us. He had most of the class doing this together. Yes, lets blame people for what people did more than 300 years ago.

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
lets blame people for what people did more than 300 years ago.

That seems to be the general idea behind anti-british feeling.

bonkey

Originally posted by sanvean
Islamic schools and mosques which preach hate against other races, etc, which go against anti-racist legislature already in place, should be closed down (if this is the best way of going about it) the same as applied to other organisations doing similar actions.

Even this is not - in my opinion - the correct attitude to take.

First of all, schools and mosques are either buildings or institutions. Neither is capable of preaching. That is done by the people involved in these institutions.

If a case can be shown against the individual, then the individual must answer to the law. Similarly, if a case can be shown that says the individual was acting under orders of those higher in the institution, they too may be brought to answer for their actions.

I dont think anyone here has disagreed with these basic principles. The disagreement seems to be whether or not this is enough.

Here's my take on it....

There is no case for shutting down the institution itself, unless it can also be shown that there is some reason why a new set of personnel will enact the same crimes.

In other words - you would have to show a case for proscribing an entire sect or religion. Otherwise, all you should do is force a change of personnel.

To do anything more is to predetermine guilt, purely through association, at some level. That - in my opinion - would be persecution.

jc

sanvean

okay, I was going on the premise that if the individual involved was preaching hate etc, chances are the general management would at least have been aware (in the case of Ireland, anyway, the two biggest Muslim institutions act as Mosques as well, so therefore the management would be aware of the preaching activity, as it is a relatively small community). So, if the management involved is to be jailed for promoting hate etc, then chances are the institution would be closed as there would be no leaders (at least for a while).